NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 3

[docwho3]

Those weren't the only discrepancies and points to ponder that I have noted. . .

I'm well aware of that, I was trying to address points you raised about which I had information not generally available. . .

In that part of my post I was addressing all readers and was not responding to your post.
I simply said that I might have more "points to ponder" to post in the future. You looking for us to be arguing?

I have no reason to believe that this person lied, I have no reason to believe that Maura's supervisor also lied and can't imagine why they would have lied well over a year later...while they were acquaintences of Maura's I have no knowledge that would lead me to believe that they were closely enough conected to Maura to have any reason in the world to lie. As to UMASS "officials"...when issues have been raised with them, family members have been referred to the NHSP, which is one of the reasons it took us so long to locate the two mentioned above...

The main thing that had me questioning the truthfulness of the individuals was the posted report in thread part one that said that the schools website listed a different schedule. That made the question of true shift schedule relevant.
When someone disappears and if foul play has taken place, as some seem to think in this case, then it is usually someone that knew the victem who had something to do with it. So any aquaintance who knew Maura even slightly falls into that dangerous category.

. . .Also I have a question or two: When did Maura first begin wearing her hair up all the time?. . .

. . .The only answer I have to that is that I have seen family photo albums and other pictures and have only found one or two where Maura's hair was down from about the age 15 or 16. And I was specifically looking for pictures with her hair down.. . .

If true it fits with an idea I have had for awhile.

. . .Oh and Murraydwyer, On the shift times you posted about: Did you get those times from Maura/family or from college officials? I don't ask to be argumentative but to be very sure I understand the source of that info.
Any college age student could tell their family they had to work certain hours when they actually did something else with their time but if the schedule came from official sources then that is a different thing altogether. . .

Note: The above question was the first point in that post that was addressed specifically to you,murraydwyer. The rest of that post before and after was open to anyone with knowledge on the points. Again, I don't say that to be mean but only to be clear. It certainly did not hurt to have the other points responded to. I just wanted to be sure you understood the other points were not addressed to any one person.

. . .The times as stated in my post came from and email sent by somebody who also worked security at UMASS. This person is not a family member. . .

That is good to know.

. . .Since evidently L.E. felt so strongly about the phone calls, was Kathleen ever poly'd about the phone calls? It would seem to be one way to quickly clear up a point even if a painful thing for family. . . .

. . .To my knowledge, Kathleen was never asked to take a polygraph...I am not sure I would agree that L.E. felt all that strongly about phone calls...it would seem to me that if that were the case her phone called for the day she disappeared would have been checked into. As to the repeated questions to Kathleen, I suspect it was a questioning technique used by law enforcement. . .

You may be right but without the poly you may never know.
If I was Kathleen I would not want that possibility hanging in the minds of relatives over the years,especially after such rough questioning by L.E., and I would likely insist on taking the test. Still since the test was not done its a moot point.

 

[docwho3]

. . .in oct/nov 2004 there were numerous onlink links to stories about the un-investigated phone calls.......hope they are still available for your review.

I was aware of that info except for the "phone was busy" statement. It does seem like slow investigating but it might also signal that L.E. already had info from somewhere else that made the other phonecalls seem irrelevant to them.
***********
I had heard from someone else that the phone call Maura about the rental place was made to a malfunctioning answering service and that all maura could have gotten was a menu listing. I do not know how true that info is. That's another of those odd discrepancies in the case.

 

[hydemi]

The quotation from Sharon's journal above is the most info I have ever seen about the upsetting phone call received (or made?) by Maura around 1am which would have been 2/6/04.

The co-worker says "expected" times which is not the same thing as saying that Maura actually worked her regular hours that Thursday night?

When the phone call to Kathleen after 10pm occurred, which was on the cell phone bill, was Maura already at the campus security desk or do we know?

Also this is the first time I have seen it stated that the security job was in Maura's own dorm, Kennedy, which of course makes sense.

But it also makes me wonder a bit as kids do "cover" for each other which is not necessarily lying--and I assume the co worker was also a Kennedy person.

It has never seemed that the content of Kathleen's talk with Maura after 10pm--about Kathleen's "monstrous" fight with her boyfriend--could have been what upset Maura so much that night.

And taken together with a post I recall somewhere about the supervisor who was not actually there that night but heard from (I presume the same) a co worker that Maura was at her post after midnight, it seems no one is actually saying they heard or saw Maura during this upsetting phone call?

So I will hazard the following: Kathleen's phone call with Maura was not the source of the upset; it probably occurred when Maura started on her shift, and Maura was not supposed to use the campus security phone for personal calls so she used her cell; Maura did not hear the upsetting news until after she had been on her shift for nearly three hours or so; there would be no cell record of this upsetting call which was on the campus security phone, so police had to know about it from the campus or building phone records; it is not clear if anyone actually witnessed Maura during this phone call but accepted that she was indeed so distraught that she stopped work early and went up to her dorm room in Kennedy.

 

[murraydwyer]

I had heard from someone else that the phone call Maura about the rental place was made to a malfunctioning answering service and that all maura could have gotten was a menu listing. I do not know how true that info is. That's another of those odd discrepancies in the case.

These were two different phone calls...along with calling a number connected to a rental in Bartlett, NH, Maura also called a number connected to VT where the system was apparently not functioning correctly.

The co-worker says "expected" times which is not the same thing as saying that Maura actually worked her regular hours that Thursday night?

That's correct in fact we were informed that she was escorted home around 1:00 a.m.

 

[petra]

I am back posting here, against my better judgement perhaps, to get a better feel for who Maura is and what was happening in her life leading up to her leaving UMA on 9 Feb.

This is the first time I read that her security reception job was on the first floor of her dorm.

http://www.housing.umass.edu/reshalls/sw_kennedy.html

Did she have a single room?? In reading about room assignments, there are singles avaiable at extra fee..or lottery based on senority points given by the lenght of time living in the same dormitory. Maura was just starting her 5th semester and it seems she would not have the required points they refer to. There is also an exception for physical and mental challenges that may require a single room after assesment by doc. Did Maura have any problems that might allow her this single room?

So Christmas break begins somewhere about the 23 Dec 2003, spring semester begins last monday of Jan.(26) Maura starts classes on tues jan 27.
**I do not have the school calender for 2004, but other years the pattern seems to be the last mon of jan school reg,changes made and on tues the classes start.

So Maura had at least one month off of school for break. What did she do during this holiday?? Was she staying with dad, with her mom, with her BF in OK, with her BF family?? Did she work?? Was she driving her saturn home and about??

I am trying to develop a picture of Maura during this time period. Did she already buy her school books for nursing before Xmas because she was changing majors and wanted to study up a bit??

Did Maura drive back to UMA on sunday 25 jan?? The maitenence and cleaning of rooms..only states that the garbage and recycling bins from rooms must be dumped into hall containers and room floors should be broom swept. Cleaning of individual dorm rooms is not done by UMA staff, so nothing had to be removed from her room. (or taken down or rearranged)--this is only required after last final exam...or of course if you leave school or dorm earlier.

Now Maura has started classes on Tues 27 Jan....Thurs 5 Jan goes to work sometime after 8pm at front desk of first floor of dorm with a coworker. Talks to sister on cell at approximately 10-10.20 pm. Possible call at 1.00am fri morn that is not from cell--gets upset and needs to be escorted to her room in this same dorm. **Notice dorms are equipped with free local calling service.

I am assuming that the front desk had a phone with free local call service too--since hooked to same system--so call in or out would not be recorded if local or within UMA system....I think this is an important fact....

Dad comes fri night?? 6 feb or is it sat 7 feb to UMA to visit Maura and look for new cars. Dad is staying at hotel. Was this visit planned earlier, before Maura went back to school or did Maura call Dad and ask if he could come and visit after she started school??

Dad lets Maura drive his car while he is visiting and asleep at hotel, Maura goes back to dorm- chills with friends and at 2.30 am or so decides to drive to Dad's hotel, at which time car accident #1 occurs.

Can someone pls help with some discussion if I have this scenario correct and fill me in on Maura's holiday time.

Thanks
petra

 

[murraydwyer]

A poster on Maura's website took pictures earlier this week of the route Maura would have had to travel had she gone east the night she disappeared. Obviously the big diffence is that they were taken during the day and not at night, but I thought I might give some a general idea of the terrain.

Google Map with approximate locations of pictures

Crash site...barn on the corner

Burnt cabin...river is across the road to the right

Straightway after sportsman club

Abandoned cabin - empty for more than ten years that poster knows of

About a 1/2 mile beofre abandoned cabin n

State campground...there's a picnic area across the street

Going down the hill from Beaver Pond about half way down

Almost to the top of the hill by Beaver Pond

Going up the hill to Beaver Pond...just around corner is parking are for hikers...no shelter

The sign is down but this is Lost River a tourist attraction for hiking by the river

Lookiing up the hill, around the corner you can see almost the same distance you see here Lost River.

About half way up the hill on the Lincoln side of the mountain

 

[petra]

thanks m-d..

I saw these on Maura's link
beautiful during the day

....but looks like it is similar to Norwegian roads and terrain at night

 

[nnglas]

Petra, I agree with alot of the questions and discussions that you posted. I've always wondered why someone who just finished vacation needed another one, and was choosing to leave school at this time. If someone who has talked to the family can elaborate on what Maura did during her "vacation" it would be greatly appreciated.


Also, and this just a side note. I know that the police claim that the call to Maura's BF was traced to a red cross calling card. I just wanted to mention that Maura's future mother in law says she can remember giving Maura a calling card in the past. I wondered where she bought the calling the card, or if the boyfriend purchased the calling cards on his military base. As I live on a military base and red cross frequently gives calling cards to military personnel and also I have seen calling cards sold at the exchange (military store) that are connected to the red cross. Actually recently I have seen many red cross calling cards as of late. (My boyfriend and cousin are in Iraq right now) But I was thinking it could be possible that Maura's boyfriend would have access to these cards, as people here who are not going to Iraq have access to these cards, I guess as a courtesy.

Any thoughts?

 

[nnglas]

Maybe the red cross did try to call him as I found this think about volunteer services for the military.......



http://www.wfcredcross.org/VolunteerServices.htm


Scroll all the way down to the part about military services, it says that all calls are made on red cross calling cards, because they have people calling from their homes.

 

[docwho3]

Petra, I agree with alot of the questions and discussions that you posted. I've always wondered why someone who just finished vacation needed another one, and was choosing to leave school at this time. If someone who has talked to the family can elaborate on what Maura did during her "vacation" it would be greatly appreciated.


Also, and this just a side note. I know that the police claim that the call to Maura's BF was traced to a red cross calling card. I just wanted to mention that Maura's future mother in law says she can remember giving Maura a calling card in the past. I wondered where she bought the calling the card, or if the boyfriend purchased the calling cards on his military base. As I live on a military base and red cross frequently gives calling cards to military personnel and also I have seen calling cards sold at the exchange (military store) that are connected to the red cross. Actually recently I have seen many red cross calling cards as of late. (My boyfriend and cousin are in Iraq right now) But I was thinking it could be possible that Maura's boyfriend would have access to these cards, as people here who are not going to Iraq have access to these cards, I guess as a courtesy.

Any thoughts?

I will continue to listen. Good points to raise.

 

[docwho3]

These are a couple more "Points to Ponder."
The "Points to Ponder" are not a response to anyone elses ideas and are meant to be open to all to post input about.
Please feel free to post input about the points even if you are the only person who seems to see it that way.
You never know what facts or thoughts might pop up when pondering points.
Thank you.
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What shape was Maura's saturn really in before she disappeared?

. . .She had been sharing rides with a fellow nursing student to clinicals. Both of her jobs were with in walking distance from her dorm. Another close UMass friend has stated that she was shocked that Maura was so far from campus in her car because she would not even drive it to the grocery for fear of becoming stranded - which is what happened only a short time before the semester began.....at that time, she had called AAA and per her Dad's suggestion had AAA car tow the car to UMass to remain until they could trade it in.

Last year during that time, there was a great deal of snow, ice and cold temperatures.....It would only be reasonable that she would not want to be stranded. What is not clear is what motivated her to get in a car she feared to drive locally and drive a distance taking 3 + hours ?? . . .

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=525346&postcount=2

Only a great need would prompt someone to drive a very unreliable car on such a very long trip.
So then we can ask ourselves: Was the car really as unreliable as Maura had let on or was she using that as an excuse to not have to drive herself around and thus save money or was pretending the car was not reliable a way to get a new car to drive?

. . .per her Dad's suggestion had AAA car tow the car to UMass to remain until they could trade it in. . .

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=525346&postcount=2
What if Maura had more faith in the car than her dad did and so when she needed to take a trip she ultimately decided to drive the car? Often times dads are overly protective on their daughters (or the daughters may believe that is the case.)
If Maura's car was more reliable than Maura let everyone believe then it at least accounts for her being willing to drive it on a rather long trip.

If the car was really all that unreliable, and we know Maura was not a stupid person, then one wonders: Did she take it somewhere locally and have a minor tune up done or have a friend do a small tune up on it, enough to make it drivable, (or was she herself handy enough with tools to do a simple thing like change plugs) so that the car would be able to make the trip?

If nothing was done to the car to make it more reliable and if it was truly not reliable for her to drive even across town then I have to think that only great need or desperation would have provoked her to drive that car such a very long distance even with someone following the same route (and the helper/follower's existence has been disputed by some others.)

I know that people have posted in the past that this was a minor getaway to clear the head and that her abduction was likely coincidental to this outing but I have to say that I have never known anyone only days from being 22 years old with real intelligence to jump in a car that they did not think would safely make it across town and on a whim decide to take a 3+ hour one way trip in it even if they did want to go drink their woes away somewhere. Any way you look at it, that long of a trip in a car which you emphatically do not trust is not a minor outing.

Since I have already posted my own thoughts, back in october of 2005, on why Maura took the trip I will not repeat them now but I will say that it would appear that one would not take such a trip in an unreliable car without feeling great need. Evidently that need was something she did not want police involved in and was something she did not want her boyfriend involved in and something she did not want her family involved in.
********************************
Was it drivable or not?

. . .He said there wasn't any way Murray could have driven the car after the accident. He said the radiator had been pushed back into the fan. . . .

http://www.caledonianrecord.com/pages/top_news/story/eac4ab9ba

And yet I have also read that later the car started right up.

. . . Fred and Billy used this key and were able to determine that the car started right up, and therefore was driveable . . .

http://www.mauramurray.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2827&highlight=&sid=fd43ac8708d0a0f9ddae4e850b9dc009
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So was the supervisor actually there or not?

. . . The supervisor on her own initiative said, 'Why don't you take the rest of the night off? I'll walk you to your dorm.' So clearly she was upset," Scarinza told WCVB-TV . . .

So was the supervisor actually there or not?
I have also read where the supervisor actually heard about the upsetting phone call from one of Maura's coworkers.
Note:archived story moved to this new address:
http://www.dailycollegian.com/media/paper874/news/2004/09/09/408022/Umass.Student.Still.Missing.Since.Winter-1556542.shtml?norewrite&sourcedomain=www.dailycollegian.com

*****************************
California???
Note: I added bolding to the state name.

. . .Scarinza said investigators, including detectives at UMass-Amherst, share Murray's concerns. At the same time, he cautioned that people sometimes escape to the White Mountains without telling their family or friends.

"She's an adult. If you want to go on vacation for a few weeks, you have a right to do that. But even the FBI is not going to go to California to see if she's on vacation there," he said. . .

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2004/02/20/with_no_new_leads_fbi_joins_search_for_missing_student/

 

[czechmate7]

I have a question maybe Cyberlaw can answer...
Can LE in the states obtain any info if someone chooses to go missing in Canada?? (applying for a new drivers license or using a SS#). Will Canadian LE get involved in a missing persons case from another country if no evidence of foul play is found??
How far is Canada from the point where Maura went missing?? I think leaving the country would be a good idea for someone who does not want to be found. Just a thought....

 

[LillyRush]

Ok... You're Maura. You've had an accident and driven your car off the road. You try to call and there is no cell service. Its 7-7:30pm on February 9th. It has to be cold and getting dark.

A big scary guy stops and asks if you need help. He scares you so you tell him no, that you've called AAA. He leaves and you see him pull into the driveway just ahead.

Now you are really scared (you didn't know he lived there). You decide to quickly gather your things and take off and look for help (or get a cell signal). You are a runner, in pretty good shape, so off you trot. Not in the direction you just came from, but forward.

Although you are familiar with the area for some reason (maybe disorientated because of the accident) you head off into an unpopulated area... its cold, its now dark, and you are in the middle of nowhere.

Someone, in the dark, sees you clear enough to recognise you later (I'm sorry I have my doubts about this ID but I'm going with it).

You see a light across a field and decide to head towards it. Problem is, in the dark, you fall into a creek/hole/other hazard and can't get out.
or
Do you accept a ride from a stranger?
or
Is it possible there was a hit and run accident and Maura was hit by a passing car?
or
Could Maura have knocked on someone's door and that led to a "bad thing" happening?
or
Maura made good her "planned" escape. (personally I think this is very unlikely)

All the possibilities are still open

*****************
The above is purely speculation on my part.

I know you are just speculating, but I totally agree with you that it could have happened like this. I have felt the same way about her interaction with the bus driver too. I am shocked when so much weight is put into her reaction to him and whether or not she called triple A when she told him that she did. Who was he to her? He was some complete, scary looking stranger (by even his own wife's account!) who was interjecting himself into her emergency situation. He may have even startled her, if he just came up to her car window all of a sudden.

Also, how would the bus driver, the police or anyone even know that she didn't try (keyword try) to call triple A? She had no cell phone service, so there would have been no record of an outgoing call that could not have even been made in the first place. It's not like they have her cell phone and can check on the call log/outgoing call list to see if she actually pressed in the triple A #. The first words out of the bus drivers mouth were that she told him that she had called triple A, but he 'knew she was lying because he knew there was no cell phone service there'. The only part that she lied about was when she said they were on their way. But at that point he had no idea whether she had truly tried to call triple A and/or was going to try again (thinking that maybe she could get reception soon), yet he was already calling her a liar and just could not believe that she would not accept his help.....since after all bus drivers get background checks (like Maura was supposed to know that or even care for that matter).

How many times have we heard about women being killed by people who pulled over claiming to help them out or other incidents on the side of the road involving unsavory characters and young women driving alone at night? Way too many to count. This girl was exhibiting all signs of self-preservation, yet from the outset her statements to this man who was a complete stranger to her have been used as some index of her intentions and made to portray her as a liar who viewed the bus driver as someone who was getting in her way. In any other context (meaning w/o a disappearance occuring), a female would be applauded for that type of caution when a stranger approached them....not have it used against them. :twocents:

 

[LillyRush]

I have a question maybe Cyberlaw can answer...
Can LE in the states obtain any info if someone chooses to go missing in Canada?? (applying for a new drivers license or using a SS#). Will Canadian LE get involved in a missing persons case from another country if no evidence of foul play is found??
How far is Canada from the point where Maura went missing?? I think leaving the country would be a good idea for someone who does not want to be found. Just a thought....

Just adding my own reply...In order to get into Canada, you need to either have a passport or (if you don't have a passport) provide driver's license, ss# card and birth certificate. Unless, she had all of those things changed before leaving America, she would have crossed the Canadian border still as Maura Murray. I am pretty certain that they would have given LE any info if she passed through the border. After that point, I don't know. But, I don't know how it would have gone undetected if she crossed with all her regular id.

 

[czechmate7]

Thanks for the reply..so I can assume that angle has been "investigated"?? I remember going to Victoria Island a couple of years back, and although I did show my id, no one documented that I was there or had come across. So, I'm just thinking outload really, but Maura could have possibly gone into Canada with all of her proper Id without being "noticed"<~without standing out? Plus, not everyone has to go through checkpoints, do they??? (You'll have to excuse my ignorance, I don't live near any bordering countries so I don't know the procedure)

 

[CyberLaw]

Was this calling card not only traced to the Red Cross but to an "official within the Red Cross".

So not only was the organization traced, but the person to whom this card was issued. There would be some "method" or accounting, so that cards are not handed out "en masse" with no way to trace who has what card.

LE has the methods, resources, training, and technology to "trace" the calling card, the average person does not.

Even with "training" NH Mom could not "conclusivly" say that the call to her was from Natalie. She heard a voice.......that she thinks is Natalie.

So how could this BF, claim that "the sniffle and cry" was from Maura as he did not even hear a voice, nor does he have the training, education and experience to "recognize" the sniffle and cry as Maura. I know even if a close relative phoned me, I could not "identify" them from their sniffle and cry.

Obviously he was "mistaken" as LE investigated and determined that the call was not from Maura.

If Natalie's Holloways' Mom can't say with 100% accuracy that the voice on the other end of the phone was her daughter, what makes the BF think he can.

Especially not hearing a voice.........

The cards may be under the "organization" of the Red Cross, but different cards are issued at different levels for different purposes.

So if a student got a card for say example at UMASS, then that card would be traced as the cards given out to students at UMASS for the blood drive between the dates of ?? and ??. Or a specific sequence number.

For example: The Military Exchange Global Calling Card is a Card by the Red Cross for troops. .......also like the Navy-Marine Corps Relief Society. They would not issue a "generic" card for these organization, they would be specific. They can of course be traced back to the organization.........

Also please note: UMASS - Amherst

During the academic year, over 200 students are employed as Security Receptionists to monitor access, check residents’ identification and register guests.

All UMass Amherst residence halls are locked 24 hours per day. Residence Hall Security personnel staff the lobbies from 8:00 PM to 12:00 AM on weekdays and from 8:00 PM to 3:00 AM on weekends.

Beyond their role inside of the residence halls, Residence Hall Security supervisors are on-call to provide Safety Walking Escorts to and from any location on campus.

They also serve as an extra set of eyes and ears for the University Police by reporting unusual conditions, safety or lighting concerns or other issues that require their attention.

It was not like she had to "cover" for another student that was late for his/her shift. It was the only shift........

Also as far as I knew. The Security desk is set up to receive incoming calls. If a security person needs to reach a "guard" they have a walkie-talkie device.

So again, it is not like Maura had to work till 1:00 a.m. to register guests, check ID, and monitor access. There would be no point........

Nor did she have to work till 1:00 a.m. to "check" burnt out bulbs, see if doors were locked.

When I read "expected" I read that the person is "expected" to stay on shift at least till 11:45 - 12:00, but not to leave earlier. That would be because their shift is from 8:00 - 12:00 ....they are expected to finish their shift and not leave early. Expected is "anticipation" of something.........

Also please note the following with the utmost attention:

February 12, 2004 from www. thewmurchannel.com/news/2844020/detail.html

Police and relatives in Grafton County are searching for a Massachusetts woman who disappeared after a car crash.

Police arrived at the scene to find her car but no sign of the University of Massachusetts student.

A witness reported seeing Murray looking impaired the night of the accident.

She might be afraid she might get in trouble, but we just want to let her know it is fine," said her sister, Kathleen Murray. "We just want her to come home

Police said they were able to find few clues at the scene of the accident.

"We did an intense search of the crash scene area for evidence that she may have walked into the woods, but nothing like that was uncovered," Police Chief Jeff Williams said.

Haverhill police have been working with state police and the Fish and Game Department to find Murray while her family and friends have been driving around the region posting signs hoping someone may give them a clue to where she is.
Searchers are canvassing an area from Haverhill along the Kancamangus Highway to North Conway. The area is like a second home to Murray. She has come to the region with her family since she was a child.

Relatives said they believe Murray may have been upset about something.
************
If a person "disappears" quite quickly from an accident scene and that person is no where in the area on foot, and they are beside a forest, well they did not just "vapourize" and vanish into thin air.

So the next logical conclusion after I "wonder where she went in such a short time" would be, she may have run into the Forest. They have already searched the area by car.........

Well if the driver did run into the forest, that would be deemed "life threatening". Especially if you did it to "escape" LE......your good judgement may be off..........

Who knows if she could be in the Forest 100 meters or 2 km. Who knows if she is in the forest or not, until a search is done to determine either way.

The person could be hiding in the forest and "trying" not to be found, by LE for obvious reasons.

Since LE is not "trained" in track scenting, nor "tracking", how would one determine if a person whom you cannot find ran into the forest or not and could be in immediate danger due to the location and elements, which is also called "an emergency".

Let me see - Cyberlaw scratches head..........get a dog to do an "immediate search" of the "forest" area. That would be the dog in the newspaper on 2/10 at night with light falling snow in the foreground. The dog could determine if the driver ran into the forest or not, if the person is in "danger" or not.

State Police are not going to say:

Let's just wait till the morning or maybe the next morning, if he/she did run into the forest I am sure they are going to be just fine overnight or the next day, in the elements, with no shelter, no water, no food, no fire, no extra clothing, no blankets, no tent, no visiblity to any passerby, no way to get help, no flashlight, no signal, no flares, no idea of where they are or how to get out. It is not like they can even stay dry.......

We are sure that they can take care of themselves for the next couple of days. I am sure she will be fine if she did run into the Forest......

Now if we did search the night of the accident we would have found her safe and sound and brought her into shelter so she is removed from the "life threatening" situation. Hey we would be able to give her coffee and donuts and a blanket. At least he/her would be safe and sound.

So lets just leave, after all no one knows if she is in the forest or not. Maybe one day after her body is found, that question will be answered.

Therefore the only "logical conclusion" is lets look for the "driver" sooner rather then later, as later could mean that LE with full knowledge of the circumstances "contributed" to the death of a person.

They would be seen as actually causing the death of the person. In the lawsuit, they would be listed as causing the death of the person and sued for millions upon millions upon millions. It is not like they would have any "defence", because there would be none. They "neglected" to respond to a "life threatening" situation of a person suspected to be lost in the forest.

It is not like you knew she ran in the forest until you determined either way.

Please.........LE Serves and Protects, they don't ignore and deflect, nor lie and deny. They are trained to evaluate a situation. Logic and common sense prevails......

They are trained professionals.............and are well trained especially to evaluate an emergency situation and the potetial loss of life.

Puhlese................

 

[LillyRush]

Thanks for the reply..so I can assume that angle has been "investigated"?? I remember going to Victoria Island a couple of years back, and although I did show my id, no one documented that I was there or had come across. So, I'm just thinking outload really, but Maura could have possibly gone into Canada with all of her proper Id without being "noticed"<~without standing out? Plus, not everyone has to go through checkpoints, do they??? (You'll have to excuse my ignorance, I don't live near any bordering countries so I don't know the procedure)

I'm not positive that the angle of her possibly leaving for Canada has been investigated. Everyone has to stop at border patrol, the level of scrutiny usually depends on the individual who is at your particular stop. They check the ids/passports of everyone in the car and probably the driver's (and cars) information is more often documented than anyone else who may be in the car. There is typically more documentation and checking upon trying to get back into America than the other way around, but the East half of Canada is known to be a little stiffer on their checks than the West side. I have gone into Canada from both sides and I agree with that. I don't know why it's a little tighter on that side of the country, maybe because of NYC and DC being below that region. So, imo, there would have been someway to check if she was there, even if it was just asking a border patrol cop if they had seen her or remembered anyone with her description. Unless she snuck across the border, but that would be attributing an awful lot of sneakiness that I'm not sure is really fair to say now.

 

[SewingDeb]

What if someone took her across in the trunk of their vehicle? No one would know unless they had reason to open the trunk.

 

[petra]

I'm not positive that the angle of her possibly leaving for Canada has been investigated. Everyone has to stop at border patrol, the level of scrutiny usually depends on the individual who is at your particular stop. They check the ids/passports of everyone in the car and probably the driver's (and cars) information is more often documented than anyone else who may be in the car. There is typically more documentation and checking upon trying to get back into America than the other way around, but the East half of Canada is known to be a little stiffer on their checks than the West side. I have gone into Canada from both sides and I agree with that. I don't know why it's a little tighter on that side of the country, maybe because of NYC and DC being below that region. So, imo, there would have been someway to check if she was there, even if it was just asking a border patrol cop if they had seen her or remembered anyone with her description. Unless she snuck across the border, but that would be attributing an awful lot of sneakiness that I'm not sure is really fair to say now.

Was this in effect in Feb 2004? REason I ask is D just went from Boston to Montreal R/T on Greyhound in mid January 2006. She inquired about tix on phone, told she could buy at bus station and remindered to bring pass and or id because Canadian regulations NOW required them.

 

[petra]

Another thought-

If a car bag is deployed in the car, as said Maura's was--can you sstill sit in the driver's seat, meaning is there enough room. Read that she was in car--so did she move to passengers side or were there 2 bags that deployed??

I am just not clear on how air bags work and how jolted you get from them..also if there was a spider web crack on windshield, at what time would that occur before or after an air bag is released?