NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 3

[Peabody]

Why not call UMass to have them answer your questions about the work schedule of security?

You don't believe the family and now that the supervisor has come forward, you don't believe her.

Nothing about this story has changed as the family has reported it:

LE insisted that Kathleen had talked to Maura at 1 am om "Thursday night" - this was in newspapers.

Kathleen insisted that she had not.

When the cell phone bill arrived, it was determined that Maura had called Kathleen and they talked from 10-10;20 which fit with what Kathleen had said all along: "I never talked with Maura at 1 am ANYTIME"

when it was determined that the only time that Kathleen talked to Maura was at 10 pm on Thursday night, Kathleen recalled that that was the night she had her "monstrous fight' with her fiance - this was reported in the newspapers too.

KM reported about the "hysterical crying" to UMass Police at 1 am. She never reported anything about a phone call. This has never changed.

The confusion seems to have originated with LE for insisting that Kathleen talked with Maura and was the cause of the hysterial crying.......I know for this to be a fact because of my connection with the family. LE put out the information about the call, but never retracted it when the cell phone bill arrived and they dropped the "call issue" with Kathleen once the cell phone was arrived.........however, they never investigated the other calls on the bill.

Also, there have been other incorrect statements issued by LE - perhaps they were simply mistakes, but they have not been retracted either.

 

[CyberLaw]

Well "some people" on this site "seem" to disbelieve LE, so why can't I disbelieve some people who may put forth an unverified story. LE has a lot more credibility, then a person who puts forth a "claim" that is unverified.

I need verification and proof of this story from at least the peson who was actually there. Hearsay is second hand information. Unless KM has "first hand" knowledge, it is hearsay. She can only "account" of what she actually saw and heard. Not what others told her.

Again, does it make sense for two women walking alone on campus at 1:30 with one women escorting another. I have yet to see a 'security" situation at a school that two women are walking alone in the wee hours at night and they are "safe". Especially from dorm to dorm........

No the newspaper is not wrong......LE did an "immediate" search of the area and forest to determine if Maura did run into the forest and was in a "life threatening" situation. Life threatening is the key word here.......LE had no idea if she was "freezing" in the forest, or not. They would have to determine either way....... That makes sense.

I will do my utmost to obtain the very first article to support my position.

LE would not know if Maura ran into the forest and was "exposed" to the elements, or if Maura got a ride.

But one thing they do know, is that Maura was no where on foot in the area if she was walking or running, very few cars are in the area, that no one saw her get into a car, so the next logical step is to look in the Forest.

I mean it was a situation of "where the heck did she go in such a short time", she is not on foot or running in the area, we don't know, nor can we take a chance on the "assumption" that she got a ride.......because that assumption could cost a person their life if they did run into the forest. There is no other logical next step then to search the forest especially when you "suspect" that the person ran into the forest because there is not other plausible explanation for a person to "disappear" within a matter of minutes.

It is not rocket science...........

Newspapers and media often get things wrong. For the family or other involved parties such as KM, the Security Supervisor, to report the facts is not hearsay.

I would think anyone really interested in attempting to put the pieces together regarding this mystery (or any other) would want the facts, not the vague and often mistaken reports by the media (I do not think the media deliberately makes errors or misleads - it just seems to be the nature of the beastt: tv doesnt have the time and newspapers don't have the space to include all of the specific details.


Let me see: The referenced article that I posted is wrong because "the media makes mistakes. Of course this is interesting as my article does not support your belief.

But then you quote newspapers that support your belief, considering that you have written that the media makes mistakes, but the articles you referenced are correct even though you claim that the media makes mistakes.

Can't have it both ways.....extremely selective. The paper is wrong when it comes to me, but correct when it comes to you, but then you say that the media makes mistakes.

Well guess what I "feel" that you are mistaken and I do intend to prove it.

 

[Peabody]

Can't have it both ways.....extremely selective. The paper is wrong when it comes to me, but correct when it comes to you, but then you say that the media makes mistakes.

I was using the newspaper accounts to report the dates of the first two searches: 2/11 and 2/19 -

was also using them to show that while correct about some information, they also included some incorrect information, or at least information that can be read to mean something that was not true.

Therefore, I must have done a poor job of presenting exactly what you are poiting out: the media makes mistakes.

I certainly was not being selective.

My goal on this forum is to see that readers have the facts. I have made it clear that I am not an advocate for the Murrays or the Rausches. I am an advocate for Maura.

Therefore, it is always my purpose to help insure that only facts are being considered when a theroy/opinion is formed.

Unfortunately, in this forum, there is a tremendous amount of theory/opinion presented as fact, and it seems there is always argument when any person with the actual knowledge attempts to correct it.



Your refusal to believe the recent posting of Hydemi presenting the ****facts***** of Maura's being hysterical as reported by the supervisor that was with her is the most recent example. Hydemi leans toward your theory that Maura has runaway. But, even his/her agreement with you is not enough that you believe him/her.

If this forum were a debate and we could debate (discuss) this case under the rules debate teams must follow, we could possibly pursue this subject matter.

However, only recently, the mods had to warn us and remove several of our posts.

Therefore, I have decided that the importance of keeping Maura's thread on Websleuths is more important than repeatedly risking the discipline of the mods. I will not be posting any more replies to Cyberlaw.............hopefully, I can remain steadfast in this position. Only time will tell as one thing is certain in any case/situation: false information always does harm and never good.

 

[hydemi]

Being an advocate for Maura is probably the best position for anyone to be in, and the hoping for the best but fearing the worst attitude expressed by many friends and family members is entirely consistent and understandable.

I have tried to stick to and even be a pest when it comes to the facts--for example, a number of my posts on the Maura site about the temperature in North Country on 2/9/04 which I believe was in the mid 30's not the misreported 12 degrees (a sudden warmup on Monday 2/9 as can be seen on www.wunderground.com the best weather info site).

So I have been delighted with KMayotte's two posts and info on the events after midnight of 2/5 and 2/6 of 2004, clarifying what was reported confusingly or even outright misreported in the media, as to Maura being hysterically upset and escorted back to her dorm but we still don't know what upset her.

My leaning is just based on the appearance and surface of the story as we know it--Maura's sudden departure from Amherst, not telling anyone, lying to Atwood about AAA being called and asking him not to call police, and then being gone from the scene by the time police arrived minutes later when all she had to do was lock herself in the car and wait for police, or accept Atwood's offer and go inside to use his phone (his wife was home). And there is an utter lack of evidence (just suspicions) that she was harmed while there are two indications of her being still alive away from and after the events at the Swiftwater crash scene--both the alleged contractor sighting 4 mi east and the untraced call to Lt Rausch's cellphone on Wed morning (which even he says occurred on Tuesday in some of the early media stories for yet another example of mistakes in the early media stories).

Sharon's recent posting on the Maura site about Maura's habit of taking off for long runs anytime anywhere of day or night without telling anyone how far or in whch direction or when she would return appears to me the kind of profile exhibited by Maura in her disappearance.

I realize and respect that her family/friends know Maura in another profile as a person who would never have cut loose from her family or from her boyfriend without contact, without explanation, so far without a trace.

 

[nnglas]

If Maura had 2 part time jobs and a full course load, who exactly did she email and tell them there was a death in the family. In order for it not to affect her job or her studies she would have to have some sort of bereavement leave. Anywhere I have ever been to school or work requires some sort of proof. Whether it be a funeral program, or a note from a doctor, or even an obituary. How was Maura going to come up with that when she got back from her trip?


http://www.umass.edu/provost/admin/policies/absence.html

 

[Peabody]

If Maura had 2 part time jobs and a full course load, who exactly did she email and tell them there was a death in the family. In order for it not to affect her job or her studies she would have to have some sort of bereavement leave. Anywhere I have ever been to school or work requires some sort of proof. Whether it be a funeral program, or a note from a doctor, or even an obituary. How was Maura going to come up with that when she got back from her trip?


http://www.umass.edu/provost/admin/policies/absence.html

Maura emailed her 2 employers: Campus Security and UMass Art Gallery (cannot recall which one specifically - there are 2 art galleries)

Maura also emailed all of her professors. I am not exactly sure how many that would entail since she was also taking clinicals.

Two of my children experienced the death of their great-grandmother while in college - one of whom was in nursing school and in the midst of clinicals. Neither were requested to provide any documentation. The one had her grade docked for missing clinicals because they could not be made-up. The other's grade was not affected at all. My guess is that the requirement depends on the professor/employer - even in a college environment - and their trust and or relationship of the student.

Perhaps because Maura had an outstanding attendance record and had not missed school before, she either knew that no evidence would be required, or her need to get away and the hope of obtaining an excused absence superceded any worry/concern of how she would deal with confirmation of death at a latter date.

 

[nnglas]

I don't know how long ago your experience was with regard to death in the family. But I find it hard to believe that between all her professors and both of her employers, that no one would ask for some sort of proof. Also, I find it hard to believe that she would think that all of these people would not ask for some sort of verification. I would think that someone just trying to get away for a few days would worry about excuse. It is also my understanding that Maura was on scholarship, I believe someone would have asked for verification. And it was also provided in the link how the professors could address the issues. Maybe not all of those people would ask for verification, but I strongly believe that somebody would have.

So while not all professors or employers require verification, I have known alot to request the information. I wasn't saying that all of them would. I just provided the link for the policy and asked the question.

 

[mocity]

My sister was killed while I was in college and I was out for a week. I had barely ever missed class before. Not one professor asked for "proof". All of my employers have always taken my word as proof...........several employers and the deaths of my mom, sister, aunt, uncle, grandparents, etc. No one has ever asked me for "proof". In fact, I would be offended if someone did.

 

[docwho3]

I don't know how long ago your experience was with regard to death in the family. But I find it hard to believe that between all her professors and both of her employers, that no one would ask for some sort of proof. Also, I find it hard to believe that she would think that all of these people would not ask for some sort of verification. I would think that someone just trying to get away for a few days would worry about excuse. It is also my understanding that Maura was on scholarship, I believe someone would have asked for verification. And it was also provided in the link how the professors could address the issues. Maybe not all of those people would ask for verification, but I strongly believe that somebody would have.

So while not all professors or employers require verification, I have known alot to request the information. I wasn't saying that all of them would. I just provided the link for the policy and asked the question.

You did a good thing in providing that link to the policy for Umass. She had reason to expect the story to be questioned and proofs to be requested. I have long felt that Maura would know that and would not seriously have used such an excuse if she truly planned to return. She was so smart that I am certain she would have come up with a much better excuse if she planned to return.

The excuse was a stupid one but it did accomplish what I suspect was its purpose of misleading people when she disappeared.

. . .If an absence is attributed to the death of a person close to the student, an instructor can request a copy of the obituary or death notice, and some evidence of the student’s relationship to the deceased. (Instructors should be aware, however, that in a situation of genuine grief and loss, this request is usually perceived as quite callous, or even outrageous, though this is not the instructor’s intent.) . . .

http://www.umass.edu/provost/admin/policies/absence.html

 

[nnglas]

Wow. When I was in college there was a student that had a death in the family and she was asked for proof. Mind you she was not happy about it, but they did ask for proof. I have worked for corporate america for about 8 years and I remember having to ask employees for proof. That is mind boggling that anybody could just use that excuse. I guess people just don't think that someone would lie about something like that. Hmmmm.

 

[mocity]

I have never heard of anyone asking. I have been in corporate america for 15 years and have never heard of anyone requiring "proof". When I lost my loved ones I would have been really mad if someone said... sorry for your loss but we are going to need proof that they died.

Maybe she knew others that had lost someone and knew they weren't asked for proof so she felt like it would fly. Who knows.

 

[nnglas]

You did a good thing in providing that link to the policy for Umass. She had reason to expect the story to be questioned and proofs to be requested. I have long felt that Maura would know that and would not seriously have used such an excuse if she truly planned to return. She was so smart that I am certain she would have come up with a much better excuse if she planned to return.

The excuse was a stupid one but it did accomplish what I suspect was its purpose of misleading people when she disappeared.

http://www.umass.edu/provost/admin/policies/absence.html

I agree with you, I think Maura was too smart to think that no one would question her about it.

 

[nnglas]

I have never heard of anyone asking. I have been in corporate america for 15 years and have never heard of anyone requiring "proof". When I lost my loved ones I would have been really mad if someone said... sorry for your loss but we are going to need proof that they died.

Maybe she knew others that had lost someone and knew they weren't asked for proof so she felt like it would fly. Who knows.

I accept that you have never heard of anyone asking. The fact that you are in corporate america and have never heard of it is also questionable. I really don't know why you seem to have hostility toward me, like I said I posted the link that deals with the situation at her college. My company actually pays for bereavement leave, so perhaps that is why they request proof. And if your company doesn't request the information, like I said in the previous post maybe they don't expect responsible adults with high morals and integrity to use that kind of excuse.

One more point I would like to make is that any of her professors/employers could have asked for proof then what would she have done. As the policy I posted stated, someone could have called her on it.

 

[czechmate7]

Maybe the she was going to link the disturbing call @ work to the death in the family?

 

[nnglas]

Maybe the she was going to link the disturbing call @ work to the death in the family?

That is certainly a possibility. But it seems that representatives for the family are not sure that she ever received a call. But I agree with you on that. But do you think that her being upset at work was faked? I don't know. It seems from all reports she was genuinely really upset. I'm really not sure what to make of her being upset that night. In published reports, the sister seems to think that maybe she was just trying to get out of work.

 

[docwho3]

Maybe the she was going to link the disturbing call @ work to the death in the family?

That's long been what I believe to be the case.

According to posts allegedly from the person who was her supervisor for her college security job the night of the alleged 1 am call (on the mauramurray website) Maura basically said about 3 things to her supervisor:
1. That nothing much was bothering her.
2. She would have her (nonexistent) room mate help her.
3. That she was worried about her sister.

Edited to add:
I am not certain a real 1 am call ever took place but in either case I believe she meant to use the alleged event to further connect up to her death-in-the-family excuse.

 

[mocity]

nnglas, I meant no hostility in my post towards you. I was just pointing out my experience with the topic you were addressing. I am sorry you "find it questionable" that I am in corporate america and no one has ever asked but that is the fact. I am a CPA and work with professionals so possibly that is the reason. Who knows. I was just pointing out what I have experienced. I have had many deaths in my family unfortunately and I was just pointing out that no one has ever asked for proof. It was my understanding that these discussions are for everyone to be able to state their opinions. In this case, I am just pointing out what I have had personal experiences with. We have no way of knowing if they would indeed ask her for proof.

 

[nnglas]

nnglas, I meant no hostility in my post towards you. I was just pointing out my experience with the topic you were addressing. I am sorry you "find it questionable" that I am in corporate america and no one has ever asked but that is the fact. I am a CPA and work with professionals so possibly that is the reason. Who knows. I was just pointing out what I have experienced. I have had many deaths in my family unfortunately and I was just pointing out that no one has ever asked for proof. It was my understanding that these discussions are for everyone to be able to state their opinions. In this case, I am just pointing out what I have had personal experiences with. We have no way of knowing if they would indeed ask her for proof.

That is correct. Perhaps your job situation has been different. But as I pointed out earlier my company pays for bereavement leave, so maybe that is the difference. I also said that I acknowledge that you may not have heard of this type of verification, but the point that I am making is that Maura's college did have a policy and it explains how to deal with the situation. So it can not be so totally unheard of. The fact of the matter is that the college does address this kind of situation. My point is she could have been asked for proof.

Also, you seem to think it odd that someone would request proof, as you said with many employers and many deaths in your family that you have never been asked for proof. But I have had to ask people for proof in my current position and the college has information posted on their website about this type of verification. So, it is not so outrageous to do so. Your post seems to indicate that asking for verification is out of the norm. I submit that it is not all that rare.

 

[mocity]

My point it that I think it is rare based on my personal experiences. My college had the same policy yet I was never asked for proof. Each of the companies I have worked with have also had the same policy and has always paid for the time away from the office, yet I have never been asked for proof. I have never been required to ask my employees for proof either. This is just my experience. Really, it is neither here nor there. Truce!:innocent:

 

[Masterj]

My point it that I think it is rare based on my personal experiences. My college had the same policy yet I was never asked for proof. Each of the companies I have worked with have also had the same policy and has always paid for the time away from the office, yet I have never been asked for proof. I have never been required to ask my employees for proof either. This is just my experience. Really, it is neither here nor there. Truce!:innocent:

I had a few family members and close friends die while I was in college. Like UMASS, my school had the same policy. No one ever asked me for proof. Additionally, when I was a freshman, I needed to leave college for a few days to clear my head about things and I admit to using the death in the family excuse.