NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 9

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Riot said:
Do police ever give misinformation so that witnesses/informants/confessing criminals can identify themselves as "real," or is this just a movie/tv thing?
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I'm not sure of misinformation, but they do hold back small details for that purpose. Details that only the actual perp would know.
 
scoops said:
Once again, for disucssion purposes, I am going to re-post Maura's phone records from the thursday night she was working as dorm monitor.

Maura Murray Cell Phone Calls

Thur Feb 5 ==== (Call in to Maura) --- 7:17 p.m. to 7:37 p.m.

Thur Feb 5==== (Maura calling out) --- Amherst last four 9411 ---- 8:40 p.m. to 8:43 p.m.

Thur Feb 5 ====(Maura calling out) --- New City, NY last four 8290 ---- 9:09 p.m.

Thur Feb 5 ====(Maura calling out) --- New City, NY last four 8290 ---- 9:55 p.m.

Thur Feb 5 === (Call in to Maura) --------- 9:56 p.m. to 10:02 p.m.

Thur Feb 5 = (Maura calling out) --- Hanover, Ma last four 7271 --- 10:10 p.m. to 10:38 p.m.

Fri Feb 6 === (Maura calling out) – New City, NY last four 8290 – 12:07 a.m. to 12:14 a.m.

Fri Feb 6 === (Maura calling out) – Amherst last four 8911 ---- 3:40 a.m. to 3:42 a.m.


Domino’s Pizza --- Amherst, Ma (413) 256-8911
Rao’s Coffee --- Amherst, Ma (413) 253-9411
Hanover, Mass --- Confirmed number of Maura’s older sister

West Point is approx. 22 miles from New City, New York.

Billy, although in Oklahoma at the time, would likely have started a cell plan while he was at West Point and it would follow him no matter where he moved and show up as New City, NY whenever he called someone.
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This list, taken along with the email from Billy that Maura had printed and left in the dorm, as well as the gifts and mementos from Billy that she took with her, lead me to a somewhat simpler idea of what was going on with Maura.

Most media outlets have made a big deal out of the call between Maura and her sister. Certainly, that was the longest call on the list. But the most significant ones seem to me to be the three to Billy, two of which went unanswered, and one of which was only 7 minutes long. Whatever might have been said between Maura and her sister, that call is sandwiched between attempts to call Billy. And I have never seen any discussion in the media about what the content of her messages to him might have been if she left any or what they discussed for those seven minutes. For a young woman in her twenties, absent some horrific information about the death of a family member, it is almost always boyfriend problems that lead to deep emotional upsets. So I think what upset her had to do with Billy, and whatever was said in that 7 minute call made it worse.

It's possible she may have printed more than one email between herself and Billy and the one in her room got left behind. We take it, specifically, as a clue of some sort, but it may just signify that she was looking back over a number of exchanges between them. There's nothing like heartbreak to set a girl into motion--pack the stuff, including the boyfriend's gifts, get some snacks and booze, and go away and wallow for a while.
 
pittsburghgirl said:
This list, taken along with the email from Billy that Maura had printed and left in the dorm, as well as the gifts and mementos from Billy that she took with her, lead me to a somewhat simpler idea of what was going on with Maura.

Most media outlets have made a big deal out of the call between Maura and her sister. Certainly, that was the longest call on the list. But the most significant ones seem to me to be the three to Billy, two of which went unanswered, and one of which was only 7 minutes long. Whatever might have been said between Maura and her sister, that call is sandwiched between attempts to call Billy. And I have never seen any discussion in the media about what the content of her messages to him might have been if she left any or what they discussed for those seven minutes. For a young woman in her twenties, absent some horrific information about the death of a family member, it is almost always boyfriend problems that lead to deep emotional upsets. So I think what upset her had to do with Billy, and whatever was said in that 7 minute call made it worse.

It's possible she may have printed more than one email between herself and Billy and the one in her room got left behind. We take it, specifically, as a clue of some sort, but it may just signify that she was looking back over a number of exchanges between them. There's nothing like heartbreak to set a girl into motion--pack the stuff, including the boyfriend's gifts, get some snacks and booze, and go away and wallow for a while.
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I'm not so sure she was having boyfriend issues. I recently caught an older 20/20 show on this case on ID where Billy was interviewed along with his mother. He didn't indicate that there were any issues. In fact, he talked about Maura's plans to live in Oklahoma with him after she graduated from nursing school. I do think she was emotional about something, but I'm not so sure it involved him. It was probably more personal, IMO—unless she was feeling unworthy or something of that nature. I think she was going through a rough patch. IMO, after crashing her dad's car, she bottomed out and then impulsively took off to sort things out. Either way (boyfriend problems or personal problems), it still doesn't solve what happened to her.
 
Okay, I am a little naive here, but would you really drink yourself to death with a bottle of Kahlua? I am not talking about flavor or anything- but kahlua is 20% OH by vol. Wine is around 15% (depending on brand and type).
Unless her plan was to drink the bottle and fall asleep and die from exposure wouldn't most people find a more "sure fire" way to go? Like hard liquor?
I guess this is a ticky-tack point, but I just don't feel like she would have planned to go this way. If she had a giant bottle (I am assuming it was the standard size) then maybe.
 
deca said:
Okay, I am a little naive here, but would you really drink yourself to death with a bottle of Kahlua? I am not talking about flavor or anything- but kahlua is 20% OH by vol. Wine is around 15% (depending on brand and type).
Unless her plan was to drink the bottle and fall asleep and die from exposure wouldn't most people find a more "sure fire" way to go? Like hard liquor?
I guess this is a ticky-tack point, but I just don't feel like she would have planned to go this way. If she had a giant bottle (I am assuming it was the standard size) then maybe.
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Perhaps she had been sipping from the Kahlua bottle whilst driving, and then having crashed and knowing she was under the influence, decided to flee the scene and take the 'evidence' (the Kahlua bottle) with her.
 
Right now I am of the belief that she was like "Oh F! I cannot believe how $hitty life is right now! Okay, I am going to run into town and get a room, take a hot shower and drink myself silly. I can deal with this car tomorrow."

But I change my opinion every once in a while.:blushing:
 
My opinion changes too, but right now I can just imagine her feeling like she has messed up time and time again, and that she needs to break away and have some time to herself (hence the trip away, and the alcohol she bought to take with her).

She is feeling depressed and decides to start drinking right away (from the Kahlua bottle). She was under the influence and emotional and crashed her car again (not too surprising given the circumstances). She was upset with herself for managing to mess up yet again and panicked about adding a DUI to her problems, so she decides to take the Kahlua bottle (the evidence of her drink driving) and just leave the car.

She is most likely not even thinking about what happens next. She just wants to get away from the car. Then...... I don't know what happens after that. Maybe she falls and is killed or too injured to get up. Maybe she dies from exposure. Maybe she gets picked up by some creep who kills her.

I don't believe that she is still alive though.
 
deca said:
Right now I am of the belief that she was like "Oh F! I cannot believe how $hitty life is right now! Okay, I am going to run into town and get a room, take a hot shower and drink myself silly. I can deal with this car tomorrow."

But I change my opinion every once in a while.:blushing:
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One thing that bugs me is she was going OUT of town. If I remember correctly her scent was lost right in front of the bus drivers house, right? She actually crashed in the most populated area on that road and the last grouping of houses for miles!!!! From where her car crashed to where she walked is actually further away from civilization not closer.

I know there is a youtube video showing the area. Have you all seen it? I used to drive this road numerous times a day everyday. Still do when I go to visit my family every few weeks, I think of her every time I do too.
 
shefner said:
I agree with all that you said except the last bit. You can buy a car and drive it off the lot in the same day. Been there and done it plenty of times. Salesmen work hard to make it happen.....
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Thanks to CA's lemon law (you have x days to decide to return a used car), they CAN'T WAIT to get you off the lot with the car. They'll even sell you temporary insurance that will last until you get the permanent kind.

My husband once bought a new car in both our names without my knowledge. (It was okay. We had agreed on the basic plan and he was going to drive the car.) He was in and out of that lot in less than 2 hours!

But in every case, we left a trade-in.
 
scoops said:
I would agree with anyone that the wreck in new Hampshire was unplanned.

I don't think Maura set out to stage a car accident because nothing supports that.

having said that, the question then becomes what happened to Maura once she had an unplanned accident that threw off whatever her initial plans were?

I believe any scenario becomes possible (post accident), however, I go back to what little evidence is believed to be known.

It is believed (by family and investigators) that Maura took a backpack and some bottles of alcohol and nothing else (leaving everything else behind in her car or back at her dorm) from the accident scene.

In what scenario that you can come up with ... does a stranded motorist take a backpack and a few bottles of alcohol with them and nothing else?


If she was going for help, what do you need a backpack and bottles of alcohol for?

If she was meeting someone, you mean to tell me you aren't going to bring your personal belongings and valuables when you enter your friends car, just a backpack and some bottles of alcohol. I am pretty sure a true friend would want you to get your valuables and clothing before you leave your stranded car and would take the additional minute or two to allow you to get that stuff before you leave the area.

If she is hiding evidence. Why not chuck the bottles of alcohol in the nearby woods as you walk away from the car, there are plenty of hiding spots where Maura went missing to conceal a couple of bottles of alcohol. And why do you need your backpack as well.

I can only truly think of one scenario that makes sense when it comes to having on your person just a backpack and some alcohol and you are in the mountains ... and it does not have a happy ending.


The question then becomes, how did Maura go about it.

My own theory is that she caught a ride away from the accident from a stranger. The stranger didn't have to know what Maura was up to, didn't have to know what was in her backpack. And the stranger could've easily taken Maura further down the road, or to Maura's intended destination and that was the last of it.

Because of the location, I would venture to say, that Maura could've been picked up by someone (not local to the area) and therefore, that someone may have never heard anything about Maura murray before in the media.

They just happened to be a good samaratin that night and have never thought back to that night again.
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Long time follower, full time lurker, and very, very part time commenter, here on Maura's case..

I am fine with the suicide theory to a degree in that I do see it quite plausible that Maura had come to a breaking point, so to speak, thus setting in motion her leaving town with no dead set plan of suicide, but rather the thought crossing her mind as a possibility.. The main objective IMO was just for her to get away as soon as she possibly could and once away from all things(school, fam, life, stressors, etc, etc) that she would would go from there as to what would happen next..

IMO that's the frame of mind that Maura was in when setting out on this road trip to get away from EVERYTHING and from that point nothing at all being written in stone as to how/what she would do from that point on.. IMO it was Maura, and Maura alone on that back road that night, having indulged in some of the alcohol she'd earlier purchased, and found herself in the single car accident.. IMO no doubt about it that this was very much a single car accident and NOT a planned/staged "accident"..IMO.

This accident she had was exactly that, an unplanned accident. One observing neighbor saw Maura in a "flurry of activity in the back seat and at the trunk". Once she realized that the police might be on their way, Maura was frantic to get the heck out of their as quick as possible. IMO the priority of the liquor being taken is IMO obvious due to the main purpose being she knew that most likely police would be on the scene thus her taking the liquor was a priority for her in that frantic, hazy frame of mind that she was in when fleeing from her vehicle as quickly as she could... IMO she had every intention on at some point retrieving her car and other personal items left behind.. BUT AT THAT POINT IN TIME, BEING OF FRANTIC THINKING, HER ONLY PRIORITY WAS VERY, VERY SHORT TERM THINKING IN WHAT SHE MUST DO TO AVOID TROUBLE AT THAT TIME(she was not clearly, nor rationally thinking what the long term plan would be, nor what repercussions she would be facing..her thoughts were frantic and focused solely on the short term, immediate remedy)..

Back to her alone at her car after the accident.. Butch Atwood clearly stated that in the minutes before the police arrived there were "a few vehicles" that passed down that road. IMO it is one of those vehicles that "passed" that holds all the answers as to what/where/how Maura permanently "disappeared"... The dog's scent traced her 100 yards east of the accident, which is the way she was heading already. Once she started running away from there, she quickly realized that it was way too cold to make it very far. She opted for a ride with one of the passing vehicles.

IMO this choice made on a spur of the moment, frantic, and in a likely hazy mindset is what led to Maura's demise of opting for a ride with one of those passing vehicles..

IMO first and foremost Maura didn't commit suicide because she never made it to the position of having that choice of whether or not to commit suicide(in going with the theory that she was getting away to clear her head and decide what to do from there..work on problems, suicide, etc?..).. Had she not had the car accident that night and instead safely made it to her planned destination of somewhere to get away from all of life's problems..IMO, yes I believe it possible that Maura may just have committed suicide..but IMO she didn't due to the fact that her destiny was set in motion and fate sealed upon her decisions made immediately following her single car accident on Wild Ammonoosuc Rd..culminating in her accepting and getting into a stranger's vehicle a mere few hundred feet away from where her car sat wrecked...

IMO it is that decision and it it is that individual that is the reason and the person who is responsible for Maura's "disappearance"(IMO abduction/murder).

All jmo, and now back to lurk mode..


**Please forgive the limitations that come w/my posting via mobile ATM**
 
My apologies for posting back to back, but just wanted to elaborate a little more on my opinion/theory regarding Maura's having gotten into a passerby's vehicle out of desperation in fleeing the scene of the wreck..

Regardless of *who* the passerby was, or *how* the circumstances came to be that their path crossed with Maura Murray at that very critical point in time..Regardless of the who/how I am strongly of the opinion that this is the most likeliest of scenarios leading to Maura's disappearance(IMO abduction/murder)..

So, with that said I will elaborate on a bit of a theory regarding the possibility of their(Maura/passerby) paths crossing at this time/place NOT AT ALL JUST BEING A FACTOR OF HAPPENSTANCE.. again just looking at this in theory and am in no way claiming this theory to be an accurate account or fact..just merely a theory that involves the strange, known factor of the rag in the tailpipe..

As we all know Fred immediately came out stating that it was not only he that had instructed/taught Maura to stuff the rag in the tailpipe, but went a step more in saying that it was actually his rag that he'd given Maura that was found stuffed in the Saturn's tailpipe.. If what Fred claims is fact, well, then obviously that nixes my entire theory altogether, but IMO I've always seen it as a possibility that this immediate, public acclamation by Fred had much more to do with attempting to shape/mold the public's view of his daughter's disappearance(away from any of the suicide speculation that was brewing from the info of there being a rag stuffed in her tail pipe), rather than the claim actually being true..

With that being possible I've looked at various other options of how/why/who could have stuffed that rag in Maura's tailpipe, IF INDEED IS WAS NOT MAURA WHO DID SO.. I want to ask, *could someone have* stuffed that rag in her tailpipe(at say, the last stop Maura had made for gas, food, etc) with the intention/hope of Maura's car breaking down fairly soon thereafter ???(is this even a valid possibility or not??).. of course the perp who stuffed the rag would be following behind Maura and therefor he would have Maura in a very vulnerable position.. He looms around as Butch pulls up and she rejects his offer of any assistance..and then when seeing she chooses to flee on foot what better way for the perp to interject himself into the equation as the happenstance, good Samaritan, passerby that pulls up to save the day by helping her flee before police or anyone else showed up on the scene..

Anyhow, just a thought/theory and not one that I am at all married to..rather just looking at some of the avenues with this one focusing on more of a premeditated crime with the perp's creating a vulnerable situation for Maura..but IMO I am more inclined to believe that there truly was no premeditation involved regarding a perp setting up the circumstances, but rather that this is just one that has a domino effect of negative actions/behaviors leading to negative consequences/repercussions which directly led to Maura finding herself in that extremely unfortunate, and extremely vulnerable position that night..≤≤--This is what my strongest opinion leads me to believe..

All jmo, tho and my ramblings thoughts on this as a possibility( when in reality it may not even be a viable possibility..believe me I'm no mechanic or automotive genius, here:crazy: ) ..
 
Lots of good thought/theory and well written SmoothOperator ^^!

I agree about her getting into a vehicle, or as another suggested might have even been struck (on purpose or by accident) and taken - either way, IMO, that's what sealed her fate. It's very Occam Razor like, whereas her getting a ride, and then going off someplace and actually committing suicide without leaving a note, in a way as to be found, is so much more complex.

Of course it could it happen.. who knows...

About what you said about the rag - now that's something that FM could clear up, since the rag-in-the-tailpipe has been always been a puzzle.
 
A theory I have been thinking about for a while... Please feel free to disregard it, as it is pure speculation, but it might prove interesting. I don't think it has been explored before, but I might not know if it has.

Why did MM phone those holiday condos a state away? Why was she looking to get so far out of town (at least for a short while)? I tried to think about her specific circumstances, then something started coming together.

She was training to be a nurse. Therefore, she knew a lot of local medical professionals. She might even have anticipated working amongst those same medical professionals in the future.

What if she needed medical advice but felt she couldn't get it from the people that she knew or was likely to know in the future?

Renner has commented that she may have been in a relationship with a running teammate. What if something sexual had gone on between Maura and someone at UMass? What if (as Renner discusses) Billy wasn't always as faithful as he appears - it is rumoured that one of the printed emails discusses how Billy may have cheated, but I cannot be certain that is the truth.

Maura was a nursing student. She would know the risks of sleeping with a new partner, or being exposed to a boyfriend who had cheated.

I wonder if she initially planned to get way out of town in order to reach a walk-in clinic (since there are no apparent records of her having an appointment at any sites, though I'm not sure if info like that would be made public anyway). She didn't want to be recognised or have anything she might say there come back to haunt her.

I also think that if her Father or another family member knew of her intentions, then they wouldn't want to discuss them, understandably.

I don't want to smear MM or Billy's name at all. If this theory holds any water, she could easily have been taking sensible precautions after a sexual assault or something outside of her own control. It was just me brainstorming what might make someone try to get a reasonable distance out of town for a day or two in her specific circumstances.

Edit - In addition, might that be a reason why she decided to drive from the party to somewhere else (speculated to be her father's hotel room)? Someone makes an inappropriate comment, touches a nerve, and she decides to drive (while possibly under the influence) to see her father, whom I propose might have been her confident? It could be why he came down to help her buy a new car - didn't want his girl making an inter-state trip in a run-down car, and maybe even thought it might cheer her up a little. After they fail to buy a car, she decides to make the trip anyway.

I admit this doesn't all fall into place easily, and I don't want to try to bend the facts to add weight to this idea if they doesn't support it. I just don't think FM would harm his daughter, but he clearly knew something. Anyone else think this might have some sense in it somewhere?
 
Has anyone been following the Abigail Hernandez case? Abby recently disappeared from North Conway. A shoulder to shoulder search recently found remains from a missing hiker and another set of bone fragments that haven't been identifiers yet, or at least, not publicly. I know Maura disappeared a bit away from North Conway, but certainly close enough that it is making me wonder.
 
May I be the first to say :welcome6: to Websleuths Captain_Khan !
 
Masterj said:
Has anyone been following the Abigail Hernandez case? Abby recently disappeared from North Conway. A shoulder to shoulder search recently found remains from a missing hiker and another set of bone fragments that haven't been identifiers yet, or at least, not publicly. I know Maura disappeared a bit away from North Conway, but certainly close enough that it is making me wonder.
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I have say that I came to Maura's thread today, wondering if there could be a connection between the disappearances (I don't believe Maura ran off and died of natural causes). I know the chances of a connection are very very slim, considering it's been almost 10 yrs since Maura disappeared and Conway is 60+ miles away from Haverhill. But two young girls... I don't know. Just a thought.
 
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