Norway Norway - Oslo - WhtFem 20-30 - Fake Name - Shot in Hotel Room - Jun'95 #2

"it would have required a round to be fired to do so"

Such as that 'test shot' fired into the pillow, perhaps post, rather than ante-mortem?

No expertise in field of firearms, but in other areas here - can see many arguments for both suicide and homicide (staged as suicide), in accordance with the items found on the victim and on scene.

Given the reasonings of posters with obvious expertise and insight on thread, I'm still unsure about the lack of any residue (blood or gunshot) apparent on hand(s), especially in relation to visual evidence that possibly speaks to external trauma, ante-mortem.
Yes, it is plausible but incredibly unlikely. The chances someone could have shot her then placed the gun in her hand in the odd manner it was found, and then fired a round into the pillow, and then lowered her hand to rest with the gun in it, in the state it was in with the trigger still depressed, are extremely low. As in PowerBall winning odds low.
 
Yes, it is plausible but incredibly unlikely. The chances someone could have shot her then placed the gun in her hand in the odd manner it was found, and then fired a round into the pillow, and then lowered her hand to rest with the gun in it, in the state it was in with the trigger still depressed, are extremely low. As in PowerBall winning odds low.
Ok thanks for that. What about covering her hand to shoot her then? As if if was aimed toward someone else then turned back on her whilst she held it, other person's hand covering, fired, the laid to rest. Would this account for the lack of residue on her hand?

Just trying to discount. Can still clearly see both angles.
 
What is the likelihood that someone in a supine position shooting themselves in the forehead would miss first time, do we think? Is it possible that a combination of outstretched arms, shaking hands, nerves, etc, would lead to a shot into the pillow the first time?
This is a good point which I meant to address before but missed for whatever reason.

The following is obviously just my opinion based on my own experience.

I don't think it likely that the shot into the pillow is a case of her missing on a first attempt. I think that that can be effectively ruled out for the following reasons;

There would unquestionably be very noticeable gunshot residue deposits to her face, hair and upper clothing, etc. When I say gunshot residue deposits I'm not just taking about the gaseous residue stuff they swab a criminals for. I'm talking physical injuries caused by free flying particles of unburnt powder, soot and the propellant gasses themselves.

The 9x19mm NATO round (and the 9mm Luger/Parabellum which are essentially the same) works at a pressure that people who aren't experienced in firearms or handloading ammunition may find surprising. If you've ever kicked a car tyre, and possibly hurt your foot, and thought it must be containing quite a lot of pressure then compare with a 9mm round. An average car tyre is inflated to about 30-40psi (pounds per square inch). As can be seen from the link below (I know it's only Wikipedia but it quotes correctly) the 9mm cartridge produces pressures well over one thousand times of manhy car tyres!


The below is a link to the Hodgdon Powder Company loading data website which confirms these levels of pressures. You'll need to navigate through it and select "9mm Luger" data along with a bullet weight and powder type but it's all there.


Discharging 30,000psi of super-heated gas and tiny projectiles travelling at 5,000fps+ a few inches away from human skin and not leaving evidence of such is, to all intents and purposes, inconceivable in my opinion. No medical examiner would miss such injuries.

Now, perhaps it was the case that she did that and it was mentioned in the post mortem report but I'm not aware that it's online anywhere to check.

The second reason which, in my opinion makes it highly unlikely, is the noise. As with the points about pressure, if you don't have any experience with firearms then it's difficult to fully appreciate just how noisy these things are. The noise is related to the pressure - the higher the pressure, the higher the volume. Indeed, noise meters actually measure pressure, so I believe. 30,000psi is a lot of pressure! Discharging a 9mm pistol a few inches from your face would be an utterly terrifying experience. The notion that she would then have seemingly calmly realigned it with her forehead and shot herself seems highly unlikely to me. As with the first point, there would also likely be noticeable physical effects of very likely burst eardrums.

So, whilst lining up her second shot she would likely have been shaking with terror and in fairly severe pain from her skin being penetrated by super-heated gas and flying particles and most probably shattered eardrums and massive ringing in the ears yet managed to perfectly place a second shot right in the centre of her forehead. I don't see this is a credible scenario.

I don't have an answer to the other shot. I've mulled about with various unlikely theories that just possibly the gun managed to discharge a second time when she pulled the trigger but it's a pretty thin theory. It doesn't get round the fact that all of the issues mentioned above would still be evident on her body.

The only conclusion I can arrive at is that it was some sort of "test shot" to satisfy herself that the gun worked. It could have been an accidental discharge when she was playing about with it or trying to load it, of course.

My opinion only, obvs.
 
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Something I was also going to mention the other day but never got round to - Christmas and all that!

We should be careful about accepting things in the mainstream media, let alone the lesser known stuff, as if it's Gospel truth. The VG article is an excellent piece of journalism but when skimming through again the other day I noticed something which is categorically wrong. The article states;

"The Browning is a powerful, semi-automatic weapon. When a shot is fired, the next round is automatically pushed into the firing chamber. The magazine holds nine cartridges."

The magazine of the Browing GP35 holds thirteen cartridges, not nine! Again, a Wiki link but the capacity is correct.


Other capacity magazines have been available over the years, a ten round one is popular and was most likely brought out due to legal restrictions in various localities - especially the USA which had a ten round capacity limit for many years from the mid 1990s.

Indeed, the statement that it was a nine round magazine cannot be correct; one bullet went through the pillow, one went through her, there were seven rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber which had been carried up when the gun cycled after the fatal shot. One - plus one - plus seven - plus one equals ten, not nine.

Of course, we don't know when the round into the pillow was fired and what happened in the interim. It's possible that she removed the magazine and put another round in it but it would seem unlikely.


All only my opinion, obvs.
 
Some magazine
Something I was also going to mention the other day but never got round to - Christmas and all that!

We should be careful about accepting things in the mainstream media, let alone the lesser known stuff, as if it's Gospel truth. The VG article is an excellent piece of journalism but when skimming through again the other day I noticed something which is categorically wrong. The article states;

"The Browning is a powerful, semi-automatic weapon. When a shot is fired, the next round is automatically pushed into the firing chamber. The magazine holds nine cartridges."

The magazine of the Browing GP35 holds thirteen cartridges, not nine! Again, a Wiki link but the capacity is correct.


Other capacity magazines have been available over the years, a ten round one is popular and was most likely brought out due to legal restrictions in various localities - especially the USA which had a ten round capacity limit for many years from the mid 1990s.

Indeed, the statement that it was a nine round magazine cannot be correct; one bullet went through the pillow, one went through her, there were seven rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber which had been carried up when the gun cycled after the fatal shot. One - plus one - plus seven - plus one equals ten, not nine.

Of course, we don't know when the round into the pillow was fired and what happened in the interim. It's possible that she removed the magazine and put another round in it but it would seem unlikely.


All only my opinion, obvs.
Some magazine hold ten rounds.
 
I was in contact with Kripos (among others) last autumn due to my work at the time, and they told me Kripos is open to using forensic genealogy to solve old criminal cases, and they are in the process of investigating the possibilities of doing this, but according to their assessment report (still in the writing/research stage, not published yet), the method will primarily be used in unresolved criminal cases - not for identification purposes. Since they are both officially ruled as suicides (AFAIK), it seems like we'll have to wait a bit longer for the Isdal woman and Jennifer Fergate's identifications, but, on the other hand, perhaps other unsolved cases where biological material exists will be resolved, if the legislation allows the police to use the method.
Bringing my old quote over from Isdalskvinnens WS thread with a big update:

Norway has just solved its first case using genetic genealogy.
For the moment, this is a pilot project between Kripos, The National Archives, and Oslo University Hospital in an effort to solve cold cases in Norway, but as stated in the quote, both Isdalskvinnen and Jennifer F. are officially ruled as suicides (AFAIK), so they are most likely not prioritised atm.

 
Bringing my old quote over from Isdalskvinnens WS thread with a big update:

Norway has just solved its first case using genetic genealogy.
For the moment, this is a pilot project between Kripos, The National Archives, and Oslo University Hospital in an effort to solve cold cases in Norway, but as stated in the quote, both Isdalskvinnen and Jennifer F. are officially ruled as suicides (AFAIK), so they are most likely not prioritised atm.

Nice update. My experience here in the USA is similar. Priority is given to criminal cases and the non criminal Does are left by the wayside. This varies depending on the local police agency who owns the case here. Some agencies will give the DNA sample and even pay, while others cannot be bothered to do anything. So frustrating!
 
Question for the gun expert,

Is it likely that her arm moved to the position it was as seen in the photos after she was shot or did the police/forensics move her arm/the gun? And does that tell us anything about the likelyhood of it being suicide versus homicide?
 
Question for the gun expert,

Is it likely that her arm moved to the position it was as seen in the photos after she was shot or did the police/forensics move her arm/the gun? And does that tell us anything about the likelyhood of it being suicide versus homicide?
I think a forensics expert could give a better answer.

Browning 9mm has a fair amount of recoil however she was holding the gun in a unique way.

JMO but the photo of the gun in her hand on her chest is likely how she was found when the door was opened. It would be unprofessional for the investigators to disturb the scene before the photos.
 
Hello, I just joined websleuths.com to inform you that I may have identified Jennifer Fairgate (and, if I am right, so was InternetDetective when they said she was probably from Belarus - I'm not sure I agree with the rest, I'm a big fan of Occam's Razor). I have already submitted a match on doenetwork.org and they are looking into it, but I would really appreciate your opinion in the meantime.
<modsnip - not an approved source>
 
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I have never shot myself with a gun nor have I done any experiments of her situation. But I do think it is all but certain that she pulled the trigger and the gun remained in her hand. Why? It would have been virtually impossible for another person to put that gun in her hand in the state it was in, trigger depressed and round at the ready for the next trigger pull. It would have required a round to be fired to do so.

I have not asked to be a qualified firearms expert here. I just have several hobbies and one of them happens to be firearms.
That sounds like a very good point to me. It should also be relatively easy to verify how hard it would be to place a gun that has just shot into someone else's hand while keeping the trigger depressed, someone who owns a similar gun should definitely try (I'm no gun expert, but I assume it's possible to do that with an unloaded gun?).
 
@GatorFL any idea why the hammer would be cocked <modsnip - appears to be a harmful source>? Shouldn't it be uncocked after firing?
 
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@GatorFL any idea why the hammer would be cocked <modsnip - appears to be a harmful source>? Shouldn't it be uncocked after firing?
It's a Browning Hi-Power, which is a single-action design (ie. pulling the trigger only releases the hammer, it doesn't cocck the hammer first). That means each round has to leave the hammer cocked.

There was a double-action version of the Hi-Power (the Browning BDA), but this isn't one of them.
 
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It's a Browning Hi-Power, which is a single-action design (ie. pulling the trigger only releases the hammer, it doesn't cocck the hammer first). That means each round has to leave the hammer cocked.

There was a double-action version of the Hi-Power (the Browning BDA), but this isn't one of them.
@the_missing I have watched a few videos on YouTube, but it looks like in single-action handguns the trigger can only drop the hammer, you have to c*ck it (see <modsnip - not an approved source>
for example)...?

Sorry, you might be right, <modsnip - not an approved source>
 
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Hello, I just joined websleuths.com to inform you that I may have identified Jennifer Fairgate (and, if I am right, so was InternetDetective when they said she was probably from Belarus - I'm not sure I agree with the rest, I'm a big fan of Occam's Razor). I have already submitted a match on doenetwork.org and they are looking into it, but I would really appreciate your opinion in the meantime.

<modsnip - not an approved source>
Wow. Quite similar nose and mouth. Good job. I hope it is her.
 
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@GatorFL any idea why the hammer would be cocked (<modsnip - not an approved source>
? Shouldn't it be uncocked after firing?
No, this is a semiautomatic weapon that cycles the hammer after each shot. Also the trigger is still depressed. This why I feel she must have shot herself as it would be almost impossible for another party to place the gun in her hand in this state.
 
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No, this is a semiautomatic weapon that cycles the hammer after each shot. Also the trigger is still depressed. This why I feel she must have shot herself as it would be almost impossible for another party to place the gun in her hand in this state.
BBM
Not impossible. One shot killed her and, the other one, "the test shot fired through the pillow" as police called it, was shot with the gun in her hand.
That's what I think it happened. And it explains why her hand had no gunpowder residue nor blood spatter. MOO JMO
 
BBM
Not impossible. One shot killed her and, the other one, "the test shot fired through the pillow" as police called it, was shot with the gun in her hand.
That's what I think it happened. And it explains why her hand had no gunpowder residue nor blood spatter. MOO JMO
What on Earth would be the point of that, though? It adds nothing to what an assassin would be trying to accomplish. Just shoot her through the forehead and place the gun next to her or on the floor or something. Even put it in her hand in a relaxed grip - there is no reason to do it so that the trigger remained depressed.

As it is, discharging a second shot, simply for the reason of her being able to be found holding the gun with the trigger depressed (which may have not remained to when she was found), seems completely pointless to me. It serves no purpose and immediately causes suspicion as to a second person being there.

I can't explain the shot into the bed. I am quite satisfied that she shot herself, though.
 

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