NY-LI 10 bodies found on Beach-Poss. SrlKlr-12/10-4 id'd; more found 3/11 #9

[KAYTOM]

I totally agree. This is why I'm convinced that person/people responsible have access to a walkin freezer. Take a look at this walkin freezer vendor's website to get an idea on what types of businesses would have one;

Commercial Refigeration.

My gut feeling is that there is a connection to a bait & tackle store or supplier. My next gut feeling is a connection to a party boat or charter boat business (but as you can see on the website, it could be a connection to a grocery store, butcher, bakery, deli, or a larger warehouse establishment.

This would also align with the idea that he is a business owner that can work whatever hours he wants and has few employees if any. Or maybe the employees don't have access to all the walk-ins. I would think the fear of a health inspector showing up for a random inspection might rule out food establishments.

On the other hand the secondary freezers that people sometime keep in their basement might be large enough to fit a petite women.

I like the idea of the large boat coolers, but it seems like it would be pretty risky getting the body from the car to the boat.

 

[Secret77]

It also seems LE has made very little effort to encourage working girls to come forward with information helpful to the case so that many would still be reluctant to report someone they suspect is missing. I have not read anywhere that the petition being circulated for amnesty to prostitutes has produced any results.

According to the SCPD:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/n...sland-are-identified.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1#h[]

The Suffolk County police commissioner, whose department is leading one of the area’s largest multiagency homicide investigations in years, said some of the leads it was pursuing had been provided by people in the sex trade.

“Detectives have interviewed people in the escort business regarding the case, and they will continue to be interviewed,” the commissioner, Richard Dormer, said in a statement.

Escorts who have come forward to volunteer information have not been charged with a crime, Mr. Dormer said, adding that the policy would remain in place for any prostitutes who offer information.

but if you read the article, this doesn't really appear to be the case in real life..

 

[minazoe]

I wonder if they have put some decoys out there...would that work? could it work...?
wouldnt they have to bust the johns? then word could get out right?

i wish they could flush him out.

 

[Chanler]

I am always studying other serial killers cases to better understand them. (I AM a nice girl but I have a disturbing hobby. Heaven forbid any computer forensics ever be done on my 'puter,)

Anyway, I found this AWESOME post by fellow sleuth, AKWILKS, in the Tylenol murders thread. AKW performed fantastic research connecting Unabomber Ted Kaczynski to the Tylenol murders and sent info to the FBI 2 years ago. It is a very compelling argument. FBI is now seeking TK's DNA in the Tylenol Murders.

It is post #21 and is a long post but well worth reading. The info which interested me the most is farther down in the post and concerns MO vs. signature. I thought that it may help us in forming thoughts of MO vs signature in this case.

Also, if you advance further down the page, maps are provided which show the T murders in the Chicago area show that TK's family home was in the epicenter of the stores where the tainted Tylenol was sold. I thought MountainKat and other mappers would enjoy this part and maybe gain additional perspective. I am always amazed at our mapper sleuths works!

Also, AKW presents an argument that TK and the ZODIAC killer could be one and the same and TK was in the N. Cali area during the Zodiac murders. There are also comparison pics of TK and Zociac. I found it a very thought provoking submission which could help us in our sleuthing/profiling. It occured to me that this LI guy HAS left a trail of clues that we just don't understand...yet. AND these types DO move around...it's a prerequisent of 'the job' in order to remain anonymous.

Thank you AKWILKS for sharing with us!

The Tylenol Murders **ALL THREADS MERGED** - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

I look forward to you all sharing your thoughts and ideas. IDK, Perhaps we should begin a thread on MO and signature if there isn't one already but I figured I would start here. I've been away so long I feel I'll never catch up.....

MOO

wm

Hi, WaltzingMatilda, and thanks for an interesting post. I think that there is a tendency to try to merge serial killings. I just finished reading a study of three 19th century Midwestern serial killers. Apparently, newsmen of the time worked hard for years attempting to make connections among all three:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/He...e/9780875804361/?itm=1&USRI=heartland+murders

Personally, I see no reason at this point at least to go beyond the four bodies found in burlap on the beach. I think that Shannan's absence there as well as the messy chaos of the scene suggest that she was killed by a driver she encountered as she was hysterical fleeing, not by the killer of the other four girls. (The strongest objection to my theory, I think, is the Hackett call, which could theoretically be a variant of the latter calls to Melissa's sister or the ping on Maureen's cellphone.)

At the present, the public has very little information about the specifics of the four so-called Craigslist killer. That more than one of his victims had severe drug and/or financial problems suggests that they would have had increased incentive to place themselves in perilous situations if they promised quick cash.

 

[passionflower]

NEW MOON June 1, 2011 03:02:52 PM

 

[Reannan]

NEW MOON June 1, 2011 03:02:52 PM

Thanks Passionflower.... I have been worried for the last week over this case. We are right in the middle of what appears to be a prime time for the SK to kill a victim, but he has to be under enormous pressure right now. At the same time, he seems to like adrenalin (the calls to family members of Melissa Barthelemy - and possibly the call to SG's family, but pretending to be "CPH"). One of the things that strikes me about this case, is the fact that the killer essentially dumps the body - or body parts - of his victim out in the open, but they are not discovered for a long period of time. He does not bother digging a grave. I will try to find the time to look at when the girls went missing, when they were REPORTED missing, and when the bodies were found. I think it would be sort of surprising that you could murder someone.... even dismember them.... and then essentially dump the body/body parts on the side of the road and not get caught - for years!!!! What are we missing? How can this be happening over and over?? I feel like there is an elephant in the room that we are not seeing. :banghead:

 

[Reannan]

I definitely think he is doing this. Does anyone know if police ever use the cameras that hunters use? I think they call them trail cameras. They detect movement and only take photos when a large size animal is in the area. It would make a lot of sense to throw a bunch of these up in some of the areas Seaslug came up with. Might even make sense to throw a few around Hemlock cove.

They should probably always have a few installed up around Manorville.

Great idea Kaytom! I personally have those cameras posted around my property. They are cheap to purchase - decent ones for actually under $100.00!! They only take a picture or movie when movement is detected, so they are perfect to place in areas that are "out of the way". The problem I see with the LI Parkway, is that you would need hundreds, (or more) of these camera's to capture footage of the non-travelled road areas, and someone would have to check out the pictures routinely. I can tell you this.... if I were a homeowner in Oak Beach, I would have one that I would set for recording every night. Heck, if I were in Oak Beach, I would have all sorts of stuff in place now that I didn't have last year!!!

 

[shadowraiths]

I updated the archive album too, and in the process the link has changed.

As an aside, just wanted to say kudos to the quite impressive archive you've put together.

 

[scandi]

I have taken a break for a week to get my mind back on straight, so I'm back now with a clear head. lool
So I was thinking, now that Craigslist personal adds are no longer there, and the SK's dump sites have been found, what is his next move? He has been forced to change his MO in a big way. So lets brainstorm some on possible ways he can find future victims. Are there any other sex sites (locally or nationwide) he can use? Newspaper classifieds adds? Will he move on to street girls or strippers? Or will he do the scary thing and start stalking random victims?
I don't see him killing for a while due to him having to change his plans so drastically. This should give LE some time to look for future haunts where he could strike. Opinions?

ETA- But then again it has almost been a year. And it is the vacation months, sorta fits a time line right now. I hope he is a long break!!!

Good to see you Nugzter, Acc to Pat Brown, ex-FBI profiler, she thinks the SK is now the perfect All American citizen and acting as normal as can be.

IMO her opinion has value as she is a studied expert on SK's.

I wish we could get some input from Ann Rule, also studied on SK's. She did give comments in the media on the Kyron Horman case, saying she'd be watching it carefully.

 

[scandi]

NEW MOON June 1, 2011 03:02:52 PM

Thanks for that Passionflower. We should all keep our thoughts positive for movement in the case.

 

[Seaslug44]

This is not the toddler that was recently found? I can't get over all the bodies that have been found in this area. It's just too horrific for words.

I know. So sad. This was the child of a couple who lived in the city. The mom killed the daughter and the husband helped burry her in the Pine Barrens in Manorville less than a half mile from where the bodies mentioned in this case were also buried.

This leads me to mention something that may not be so obvious to anyone who is not a local. This is in regards to how criminals from the city learn about the potential dump sites around Manorville. There are several tourist attractions in the area that lure hundreds of thousands of city people to the area every year. The first is a water park called Splish Splash. It is the only water park East of the city. It's located in Riverhead. Not too far from the waterpark are Tangers Outlet stores, a small aquarium named Atlantis and the Long Island Game Farm. Also in the area are dozens of pumpkin farms and vineyards. Just to the southeast are the Hamptons where there are dozens of clubs that don't close until the very early hours of the morning. Further East of the Hamptons on the tip of the South fork is Montauk (regarded as the sportfishing capital of the world). The Pine Barrens themselves contain hundreds of miles of hiking trails that are open to the public. Also, many sections of land in the area are designated for hunting (with a license & proper permits) & anyone with a fishing license can fish in any of the ponds or the Peconic River that runs through the area.

The fact that these attractions exist creates an acceptable excuse for someone from the city to be driving slowly, wandering the side streets at night so far away from home. On any given Sunday you can find dozens of cars parked on the secluded side roads that border the Pine Barrens. You'd think that such sights would raise some suspicion (but the truth is that the people out there are immune to it).

"So glad to see you tonight officer... we were on our way home from our fun weekend and we've been lost on these backroads for hours...

Seriously; the police officers, local farmers, businessowners & homeowners are bombarded on a regular basis with lost drivers asking for directions at all sorts of hours. And the main road that connects the cars driving home from the Hamptons/Montauk to the Long Island Expressway is Couny road 111 that cuts right through Manorville and meets up with the LIE precisely at the location where all of the bodies were found.

Coincidence?

I don't think so.

 

[marie-chantal]

Thank you, Seaslug. I've never been to Long Island, so I'm not at all familiar with it. I have heard of the Hamptons and Montauk before this case, but I hadn't heard of Manorville and Oak Beach.

So it sounds to me like this is a fairly easy place for people from the city to get to if they have access to a car. How far are the dump sites from any of these tourist attractions? I wonder if the killer(s) originally scouted out this location during a family trip to one of these places. I'm still imagining that our killer is one of those "upstanding citizens" that profilers have mentioned. I could imagine him taking his family out for some time in the country, then noticing these places, and using them when he's in his killer mode. I wonder if he is a wealthier resident of Manhattan who might have a summer home in the Hamptons or somewhere else on LI. I've noticed that the bodies haven't been discovered in the Hamptons. He may want to keep them close, but not too close. MOO

 

[goathairjones]

Village Coice Blog:

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runni...d_serial_killer_new_york_magazine_cocaine.php

 

[KAYTOM]

Does anyone know how many ways there are to hide your ip address really well? I looked into it a bit and came up with proxy servers, stealing/hacking wi-fi, and using virtual private networks. I'm thinking that this SK might be an IT tech or something in the computer field. The thing with browsing craigslist prostitution ads is that you are going to want a decent amount of privacy due to the pictures in the ads. Home would be a good place to do it for most people. Doing from the office also seems fairly risky and I would think most employees worry about the network admin or don't have the user rights to change any of the ip stuff. Most internet cafe's I have been to don't allow that sort of privacy. Stealing wi-fi seems like it might be the best way to do it but even then, I would think it would provide some circumstantial evidence via the location of the stolen wifi or the mac address of the phone/ laptop.

Anyways, from what I read sites like craigslist have to hold on to their server logs for years. This log has the ip addresses for each page view. Anyone have an educated guess as to how many page views these prostitutes get? I hope it isn't in the thousands.I did see that about 15% of the male population has bought sex at one point. I am thinking that the percentage that does it regularly is much lower and the ones that use the net is even lower. But, most johns probably don't go to the trouble of proxies etc.

I would love to see where this puts the numbers. It pretty much has to be the same cast of people that search this stuff out and a few of the girls advertised in small windows before they traveled down to NYC.

 

[marie-chantal]

Does anyone know how many ways there are to hide your ip address really well? I looked into it a bit and came up with proxy servers, stealing/hacking wi-fi, and using virtual private networks. I'm thinking that this SK might be an IT tech or something in the computer field. The thing with browsing craigslist prostitution ads is that you are going to want a decent amount of privacy due to the pictures in the ads. Home would be a good place to do it for most people. Doing from the office also seems fairly risky and I would think most employees worry about the network admin or don't have the user rights to change any of the ip stuff. Most internet cafe's I have been to don't allow that sort of privacy. Stealing wi-fi seems like it might be the best way to do it but even then, I would think it would provide some circumstantial evidence via the location of the stolen wifi or the mac address of the phone/ laptop.

Anyways, from what I read sites like craigslist have to hold on to their server logs for years. This log has the ip addresses for each page view. Anyone have an educated guess as to how many page views these prostitutes get? I hope it isn't in the thousands.I did see that about 15% of the male population has bought sex at one point. I am thinking that the percentage that does it regularly is much lower and the ones that use the net is even lower. But, most johns probably don't go to the trouble of proxies etc.

I would love to see where this puts the numbers. It pretty much has to be the same cast of people that search this stuff out and a few of the girls advertised in small windows before they traveled down to NYC.

I don't know about the numbers, but my guess is that they're probably pretty high. Think about all the people who surf internet *advertiser censored*. I would think that Craigslist or that other site are probably seen by potential johns as being less risky and less obvious than trolling the streets looking for prostitutes. Because of the degree of anonymity in looking for sex online, my guess is that there is probably huge amounts of traffic. These people who buy sex seem like they'd be very concerned with not being outed or identified. Finding a prostitute online reduces the risk of someone seeing the john in public.

Now of course, those are just regular johns that I'm talking about (not the ones who are looking for prostitutes to murder). Your notion of him working in IT is probably pretty accurate. Someone working in IT would most likely know how to cover their tracks on the internet. Does anyone know if a Wi-fi security card (I know that you can get these through various cell phone carriers like Verizon or through a university if you're a student) would be able to let the killer use a computer at an internet cafe, yet grant him access to sites like Craigslist? I've also heard that you can buy these Wi-fi secuity cards if you're planning to go overseas; for example, Facebook is banned in China, but there are devices like cards that you can buy so that you can access that site when you're in a place where it's banned, like China.

 

[Seaslug44]

Does anyone know how many ways there are to hide your ip address really well?

<SNIP>

Anyways, from what I read sites like craigslist have to hold on to their server logs for years. This log has the ip addresses for each page view. Anyone have an educated guess as to how many page views these prostitutes get? I hope it isn't in the thousands.I did see that about 15% of the male population has bought sex at one point. I am thinking that the

Here's some food for thought...

Thanks to the fierce competition between search engines, websites like Google now have their bots crawl the web and cache the search results of many websites over a hundred thousand times a day.

The rule of thumb is; the more frequent a website is found to update its content, the more times Google and the other search engines will send their bots to visit that website (so a website like Craigslist or Backpage will be visited practically every few minutes).

Now here's the food for thought that I promised you;

When you surf the web via a site like Google and you click on the Cached link for a particular webpage that was returned in your search results, you are able to view a recent "snapshot" of that webpage without ever actually visiting that website. Therefore, a John can view a prostitute's ad on a website without every actually visiting that website!! The only thing that may be of concern is that the cached page may not be the most up-to-the minute snapshot of that ad (but with sites like Google crawling these websites over 100,000 times per day, that snapshot will be fresh enough for our SK to view ads for girls who are in town as long as he knows how search for them (I can get into more details if someone needs them).

Anyway, for LE to really build an accurate database of potential IP addresses, they would need to subponea the visitor logs of thousands of search engines. That is impossible to do (considering that we are just one country and there are hundreds of other countries that have websites that crawl the web too).

It's an investigator's nightmare... A pratical dead-end.

 

[scandi]

Village Coice Blog:

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runni...d_serial_killer_new_york_magazine_cocaine.php

Hi Goathairjones, Thanks for the link. Most interesting for sure that the sister quoted believes the SK likes to get high. Boy, I think with her background and knowledge of coke users she is probably right on the money !!!

It is something I have not even thought of before. But you take a white guy from mid 20 to 40 yrs old, a professional who is either married or has a GF and possibly local - then likes to use coke ~ sounds like there could be allot of people living on LI that fit that bill, eh? I guess this info would be used then to rule someone out who doesn't like coke, right?

xox

 

[marie-chantal]

Hi Goathairjones, Thanks for the link. Most interesting for sure that the sister quoted believes the SK likes to get high. Boy, I think with her background and knowledge of coke users she is probably right on the money !!!

It is something I have not even thought of before. But you take a white guy from mid 20 to 40 yrs old, a professional who is either married or has a GF and possibly local - then likes to use coke ~ sounds like there could be allot of people living on LI that fit that bill, eh? I guess this info would be used then to rule someone out who doesn't like coke, right?

xox

I agree with you, but there's a nagging feeling that I have that makes me think that he could use coke as a way to control the victims. He seems to be one of those who gets off on controlling his victims (and their families by way of the phone calls). There's always the chance that he may not actually use coke himself but may provide it to the women in order to get to feel comfortable around him. Either way, I agree with you and with Amber's sister. He had to have been a person who would have access to cocaine-either through purchasing it or possibly being a dealer.

 

[susan1122]

BBM

IIRC, wasn't there another neighbor (a woman?) who didn't want to be named? Supposedly she either saw Shannan during the commotion when she was running from GC's, or Shannan came to her door. I think she shut the door on Shannan and wouldn't help her. Does anyone else remember reading this?

Yes, Marie-chantel, I remember that. I hadn't heard about her shutting the door. But did read that Shannan knocked on a woman's door after GC's and this woman did see her. I have never seen her name anywhere, either.

OT, love your Pilchard pic.

 

[KAYTOM]

When you surf the web via a site like Google and you click on the Cached link for a particular webpage that was returned in your search results, you are able to view a recent "snapshot" of that webpage without ever actually visiting that website. Therefore, a John can view a prostitute's ad on a website without every actually visiting that website!! The only thing that may be of concern is that the cached page may not be the most up-to-the minute snapshot of that ad (but with sites like Google crawling these websites over 100,000 times per day, that snapshot will be fresh enough for our SK to view ads for girls who are in town as long as he knows how search for them (I can get into more details if someone needs them).

Ouch, I hadn't thought of that. All you need to enter is "long island+outcall+post ID" and it brings up thousands of cached pages.

Hopefully the SK didn't think of that. It's a little hindering with out the craigslist interface, but the results of an image search with those same terms is better than craigslist IMO.