NY-Long Island-Four bodies found on Beach-Possible Serial Killer-Dec 2010 #1

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Shutterfly said:
http://matadornetwork.com/bnt/2008/06/25/10-extraordinary-burial-ceremonies-from-around-the-world/

*snipped & BBM

Ocean Burial

Since most of our planet is covered with water, burial at sea has long been the accepted norm for mariners the world over.

By international law, the captain of any ship, regardless of size or nationality has the authority to conduct an official burial service at sea.

The traditional burial shroud is a burlap bag, being cheap and plentiful, and long in use to carry cargo.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't a fisherman have put the women in the water? The fact that they are on land suggests to me that the murderer didn't have access to a boat.
 
otto said:
Wouldn't a fisherman have put the women in the water? The fact that they are on land suggests to me that the murderer didn't have access to a boat.
Click to expand...

Either that, or he could have kept the bodies on land so he could "relive his fantasy" by revisiting where he buried them (as the one FBI profiler, I think it was, stated earlier). Serial killers often keep the bodies in one spot so they can relive their crimes. By putting them in the ocean, he wouldn't be able to do that anymore.
 
I think the burlap is highly significant in this case. I wish LE would share what kind of burlap was used. A typical "burlap bag" would not be big enough to put an entire body into. Where does someone get a large piece of burlap?? The landscaping thing??? Theatre???? I found this youtube which HAS NOTHING to do with this case... (if it isn't OK to link, please remove). It is done by an artist who uses burlap clad figures for his performance art piece that is titled "Burlap 1" on youtube. I found this statement interesting, and I would bet the person who murdered these women, wrapped them in burlap, lined them up along the highway close to the ocean would also....

"The natural organic materials suggest simplicity and a sense of interconnectedness between life and death, growth and decomposition."

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rPJrmimQz4[/ame]
 
What happened to Shannon Gilbert is going to be a key to solving the mystery of the four bodies. She disappeared so close to where the bodies were found that it can't just be dismissed as "coincidence". Law Enforcement must either solve her disappearance or solve the murders of the 4 and rule her out of any connection. Otherwise, she might be a victim of the same perp and there may be other "dumping grounds" and who knows how many victims.

The last sighting of SG was by GC who I think is very credible. He said she went down Galey which is only 100 yards long and dead-ends at the water. If she was really in fear of someone (real or imaginary) chasing her, she would not have returned back on Galey towards Fairway. There is vegetation she could have hidden in or she possibly could have found a way to get though the undeveloped land on either side of Galey Dr to other roadways nearby. At the end of Galey, there are two houses that appear to have heavy vegetation and a more complex topography and there may have been fences. It would have been dark (do we know if there was a moon?) I don't think she could have made her way though that area in the dark,

From what I can tell, SG spent about 20 minutes on the phone with the 911 operator (possibly more than one call) Because GC lived only one house to the east of the Brewer house, I would assume that the call was made after her encounter with GC. My guess is that she made the call while hiding along Galey. What happened after that is the mystery. The person "chasing" her may have caught her. If anyone "caught" her, it would probably been whoever knocked on CG's door. I believe the man in the SUV who went to CG's door was probably the pimp. He has given a statement to the effect that he chased after her but "lost her". CG knew Brewer and would have referred to him by name. If it wasn't the pimp, it could have been another "guest" at the party. If both the pimp and the "partygoer" were out looking for her, they should be able to back each other’s story up. There is no reason to believe they we in cahoots. Presumably LE knows who that was and has interviewed him at length.

Another possibility is that SG made it past Galey and continued to flee. There was really nowhere to go except along the road or clauseways and those would be miles to any development. It is possible that she walked the five miles in W. Islip and met misfortune there or she make have injured her while running on undeveloped land and succumbed to the elements. The area is so small it is hard to believe she wouldn't have been found. (Was any search attempted)? A third possibility is that she attempted to swim and drowned. It's hard to gauge how likely this was. Drowning victims usually sink for a day or two and then float to the surface. Currents and wind move them about until they either wash up on a beach or drift out to sea where they would eventually sink again. The water at the end of Galey was part of a channel that connected Great South Bay with the Atlantic Ocean. There would certainly be significant tidal flows.
 
kemo said:
I believe the man in the SUV who went to CG's door was probably the pimp. He has given a statement to the effect that he chased after her but "lost her".
Click to expand...

Wow, Kemo!!! GREAT Post!!! Your entire post was amazing, but I am particularly drawn to the comment about the SUV driver. This guy is gnawing at me!!! Who was he, how well did he know SG, is he still driving???
 
Shutterfly said:
Here's an oddity...
4 bodies in NJ in a line.... like a series
4 years later....
4 bodies in NY in a line...

I have no idea if either set of 4 relates to the other. I just have the feeling if they are, this guy is going to be one of those heavy into that symbolism crap that reads like a fictional crime novel.
Click to expand...

Lines aside, if counting in 4's what about the Daytona Beach serial killer?
Although he shot his victims, he was never caught and had killed 4.

A possible 5th victim of his police had first reported was strangled yet later ruled inconclusive.
Wikipedia link:
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daytona_Beach_killer[/ame]

We could be dealing with 4 completely different serial killers, as there are many working in the US at one time.

However what Atlantic City, Daytona Beach, and this new Long Island one all have in common are that they are vacation destinations. They also all connect up the east coast for the most part via I-95.

The way the victims were found in Atlantic City sounds very different from the way the Long Island ones were found.

Either it's two different people, or the killer changes his M.O.

The ones found in AC were laid out almost in ritual, the LI ones seem to have been dumped off more quickly.

I would think the killer would likely have a lot of money at his disposal. Also would make it easier to travel for him.

It's hard to tell if any of the cases are related unless we had more info to go on.
 
Reannan said:
I think the burlap is highly significant in this case. I wish LE would share what kind of burlap was used. A typical "burlap bag" would not be big enough to put an entire body into. Where does someone get a large piece of burlap?? The landscaping thing??? Theatre????
Click to expand...

Snipped. Burlap is common on Long Island since it's used in landscaping and farming. Burlap comes in large rolls, and typical burlap bales contain 20 bolts; each bolt is approximately 100 linear yards, so bales would total 2000 linear yards. The east end of Long island is farming country, and burlap is in common use in nurseries, to wrap around mature tree roots for transportations, also there are potato farms, although I imagine they would have bags made up to particular sizes which would not be large enough to take an adult corpse even if dismembered (eww....I hated figuring that one out)....I haven't found any LI burlap distributors/ manufacturers, the closest being NJ, where I believe there are several wholesalers.

Can you buy burlap in a hardware store by the yard? I don't think so, so that would point to someone who had routine access to it through a farming or landscaping business, perhaps where they worked?

Also, someone mentioned that many of the landscapers and farm workers are seasonal workers on LI. That's true and if some of the houses in that area were seasonal rental houses, it's possible one may have been rented out to seasonal workers who traveled further east to their day job?

Also, seasonal workers do mostly have their own transportation. They have to to work the farms and vineyards on the east end as there's no public transportation to speak of. They buy trucks and cars off the side of the road for cash, paying up to $2,000 or $3,000, so these are not new cars, they're old, but they're not wrecks either.

A large object wrapped in burlap in the back of landscaping truck or an old pick up truck wouldn't attract attention. In the back of a regular car, yes, I think it might, but not a truck, it would be assumed to be landscaping or nursery equipment, or amongst a tree delivery, it wouldn't even be seen.

MOO and yours may differ. :innocent:
 
KaylynnCouture said:
How Cops Can Crack the Gilgo Beach Cases

This is a really good article- lots of good information.

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/suffolk/how-cops-can-crack-gilgo-beach-case-1.2551630
Click to expand...

This is an excellent article, what i found most curious is:

"The burlap suggests someone with a blue-collar job, which is consistent with the “disorganized” profile, he said. Serial killers tend to have an “ideal” target, so similarities among the victims will be key, experts said. If the women were prostitutes or drug addicts, for instance, the vice squad could be asked to pump their street sources for information, Andreu said. Suffolk police have not accepted the FBI’s offer of a profiler — a move that puzzled experts."

Why would SuffolkPD turn down the FBI's offering of a profiler? If anything, they should take all the help they can get.

The FBI and SPD are already working together, why not take the offer for an FBI profiler?

As for the burlap sacks, is it possible they weren't bought anytime recently and had been sitting around the killer's house for awhile?
The killer might not work in a field where burlap sacks are used, he might have a relative who did, and thus leftover burlap sacks.

Also it seems that at least Gilbert and Waterman were high class call girls. They advertised on Craigslist, Gilbert even had clients in Upper Saddler River, NJ (extremely wealthy area).
Link below to the mention of Gilbert being busted in Upper Saddler River:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/jack_the_ripper_is_on_the_loose_jmgqHNcLemapHD3HXAP4uM

These girls weren't street corner girls, they actually had drivers and their pimp had advertised them over the internet. In this day and age, nothing ever leaves the Internet once it's been on it. (If the johns had used burners to contact the girls then maybe they could get around it).

It seems more likely the type of people who would hire these girls would be more wealthy individuals, businessmen. I'm sure that the cost of hiring them, their travel, their drivers would be far from cheap.

The clientele that hire the girls would be more well to do, otherwise they would go for the cheaper girls on street corners.

Shannon Gilbert went missing out of a Gated Community. Would it be possible she would be given any drugs such as Ecstacy if she was apprehensive about doing a job with a client? It sounds like she was freaking out on drugs and ran out of the place.

Who exactly is Joseph Brewer? What is his occupation? What type of party was he having in which he would invite a working girl, Gilbert to?

As for GC and JC, both neighbors who saw her in a panic that night, describe her behavior as that similiar to someone who was on drugs.

Gilbert made quite a commotion that night, enough for neighbors to remember it and for Shannon to call 911.
Even if the same killer murdered her who killed the other girls, the killer would be stupid to dump her in the same spot as the others, given the commotion that night and witnesses that would remember Shannon. Maybe Brewer shouldn't be ruled out so quickly.

Another neighbor witnessed Brewer and an unknown male loading a parked Uhaul truck:

"Another resident of the gated beachfront community described the john as an oddball.

"That guy always gave me the creeps," the neighbor said.

"One night about two months ago, he parked a U-Haul van on the side of the house. It was the strangest thing," the neighbor added.

"He and another man were packing the truck up in the dark. They moved real fast. It took about fifteen minutes. They didn't turn any lights on except one little light. That was the last time I saw him."


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...beach_in_li_hint_at_slayer.html#ixzz18XShlnZk

What were they doing loading a Uhaul in the dark? Is the neighbor who witnessed this just willing to point fingers to avoid the witchhunt or is he making a valid observation of character?

IMO, i don't think Brewer should be ruled out completely.
 
Soulmagent said:
This article says the FBI offered to help and they refused. I find that just crazy. Why would they do that?
Click to expand...

Maybe LE believes that they already have a suspect? Other than that, I cannot imagine ANY good explanation for their refusal. I realize it probably becomes a territorial issue to some extent. This is Dormer's town and his people. Naturally he wants to be the one leading the effort to protect them. I just hope he'll reconsider, in the name of justice, for the good of his people, for Shannan, and for the four ladies who lost their lives and need desperately to tell their story.
 
chemcopout said:
This is an excellent article, what i found most curious is:

"The burlap suggests someone with a blue-collar job, which is consistent with the “disorganized” profile, he said. Serial killers tend to have an “ideal” target, so similarities among the victims will be key, experts said. If the women were prostitutes or drug addicts, for instance, the vice squad could be asked to pump their street sources for information, Andreu said. Suffolk police have not accepted the FBI’s offer of a profiler — a move that puzzled experts."

Why would SuffolkPD turn down the FBI's offering of a profiler? If anything, they should take all the help they can get.

The FBI and SPD are already working together, why not take the offer for an FBI profiler?

As for the burlap sacks, is it possible they weren't bought anytime recently and had been sitting around the killer's house for awhile?
The killer might not work in a field where burlap sacks are used, he might have a relative who did, and thus leftover burlap sacks.

Also it seems that at least Gilbert and Waterman were high class call girls. They advertised on Craigslist, Gilbert even had clients in Upper Saddler River, NJ (extremely wealthy area).
Link below to the mention of Gilbert being busted in Upper Saddler River:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/jack_the_ripper_is_on_the_loose_jmgqHNcLemapHD3HXAP4uM

These girls weren't street corner girls, they actually had drivers and their pimp had advertised them over the internet. In this day and age, nothing ever leaves the Internet once it's been on it. (If the johns had used burners to contact the girls then maybe they could get around it).

It seems more likely the type of people who would hire these girls would be more wealthy individuals, businessmen. I'm sure that the cost of hiring them, their travel, their drivers would be far from cheap.

The clientele that hire the girls would be more well to do, otherwise they would go for the cheaper girls on street corners.

Shannon Gilbert went missing out of a Gated Community. Would it be possible she would be given any drugs such as Ecstacy if she was apprehensive about doing a job with a client? It sounds like she was freaking out on drugs and ran out of the place.

Who exactly is Joseph Brewer? What is his occupation? What type of party was he having in which he would invite a working girl, Gilbert to?

As for GC and JC, both neighbors who saw her in a panic that night, describe her behavior as that similiar to someone who was on drugs.

Gilbert made quite a commotion that night, enough for neighbors to remember it and for Shannon to call 911.
Even if the same killer murdered her who killed the other girls, the killer would be stupid to dump her in the same spot as the others, given the commotion that night and witnesses that would remember Shannon. Maybe Brewer shouldn't be ruled out so quickly.

Another neighbor witnessed Brewer and an unknown male loading a parked Uhaul truck:

"Another resident of the gated beachfront community described the john as an oddball.

"That guy always gave me the creeps," the neighbor said.

"One night about two months ago, he parked a U-Haul van on the side of the house. It was the strangest thing," the neighbor added.

"He and another man were packing the truck up in the dark. They moved real fast. It took about fifteen minutes. They didn't turn any lights on except one little light. That was the last time I saw him."


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...beach_in_li_hint_at_slayer.html#ixzz18XShlnZk

What were they doing loading a Uhaul in the dark? Is the neighbor who witnessed this just willing to point fingers to avoid the witchhunt or is he making a valid observation of character?

IMO, i don't think Brewer should be ruled out completely.
Click to expand...


:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

*snipped

Another resident of the gated beachfront community described the john as an oddball.

"That guy always gave me the creeps," the neighbor said.

"One night about two months ago, he parked a U-Haul van on the side of the house. It was the strangest thing," the neighbor added.

"He and another man were packing the truck up in the dark. They moved real fast. It took about fifteen minutes. They didn't turn any lights on except one little light. That was the last time I saw him."


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...beach_in_li_hint_at_slayer.html#ixzz18Xc40eim
 
Shutterfly said:
Maybe LE believes that they already have a suspect? Other than that, I cannot imagine ANY good explanation for their refusal. I realize it probably becomes a territorial issue to some extent. This is Dormer's town and his people. Naturally he wants to be the one leading the effort to protect them. I just hope he'll reconsider, in the name of justice, for the good of his people, for Shannan, and for the four ladies who lost their lives and need desperately to tell their story.
Click to expand...

It would make sense if they already had a suspect and some concrete leads. According to the papers, the FBI is already helping the local police, so it's a mystery as to why they wouldn't take their profiler as well. Unless.. they have a suspect already.
 
In the ad you can see two house from the first frame out of the windows of the listed house. It show how close house are placed.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuSORliCe8A&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuSORliCe8A&feature=related[/ame]
 
What I was going to post before I read the articles and your posts:

that I didn't get it... LE has been saying they want to get away from the serial killer theory, and how I didn't believe for a second that these women were at all voluntarily placed in burlap bags and jumped into the bay to commit suicide etc. I was even going to crack a joke about a random rash of Viking funerals ......:innocent:

and now I see that this could be the work of the occult or other factor that may or may not be murder.
 
*snipped by me
Verity said:
Also, seasonal workers do mostly have their own transportation. They have to to work the farms and vineyards on the east end as there's no public transportation to speak of. They buy trucks and cars off the side of the road for cash, paying up to $2,000 or $3,000, so these are not new cars, they're old, but they're not wrecks either.

A large object wrapped in burlap in the back of landscaping truck or an old pick up truck wouldn't attract attention. In the back of a regular car, yes, I think it might, but not a truck, it would be assumed to be landscaping or nursery equipment, or amongst a tree delivery, it wouldn't even be seen.

MOO and yours may differ. :innocent:
Click to expand...

This is where I was originally going, but from the fishing angle. The difference with this parkway from others is that "According to the New York State Department of Transportation (NYSDOT), the Ocean Parkway handles approximately 15,000 vehicles per day (AADT). Since it lies south of Merrick Road and Montauk Highway (NY 27A) for its entire length, the parkway can legally accommodate commercial vehicles."

The truck theory certainly holds water here, and based on the fact that the bodies were deep into the brush, I could see how their placement could have been possible- tossed off of a truck. It's not uncommon to see tire marks on those patches of grass before the brush from cars who pull over (yeah lovers still park) or run over the grass for one reason or another.

Tire marks from a vehicle who pulled in there wouldn't be a red flag or odd - at all.
 
One more thing- the only thing that led me away from "farm" or "farmer" was the theory that the ocean parkway isn't really the most convenient roadway from farms/vineyards out east to points west.

Also there are many more desolate areas out east to dispose of a body at a waypoint from east to west...

I'm sticking with the fishing/clamming/mate theory on this
 
Maybe it's good to look at the burlap as a major indication of who did this...I think though that you can find these sacks everywhere...and only two of the bodies were in the sacks, correct? makes me think that in the beginning the killer was trying to be neat or protect his trunk, or that the body would be easier to drag off the road in one of those sacks from the garage...Also it camo's well in the sand.

actually when I see the roadside, it looks to me as though they had to be carried out of the car..I dont see how the killer could just stop the car and dump a body from the car door.

so, a truck, or car trunk or van...

hanging our hats on the burlap, i think might be a red herring.
 
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