NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3

[GoingByMyGut]

I've been momentarily swept up by the new thread on the case I mentioned earlier. I found one thing of interest there that bears on SL's case. We have all noted our beliefs that EL must have kept records. According to this channel 10 broadcast on Bill Comeans: channel 10 broadcast
His mother kept assiduous records. Can we assume this is a common denominator of sorts among mothers of missing/murdered children? Of course, some records may be better than others.

We always say the key to cracking SL's case is unknown, somewhere in the future, may involve someone now-unknown stepping forward ... but maybe the Holy Grail in Sylvia's disappearance is finding EL's records. I remember sometime back hearing that these may be in unopened boxes somewhere in JL's home. I cannot urge this seach more fervently.

 

[rosemadderlake]

I've been momentarily swept up by the new thread on the case I mentioned earlier. I found one thing of interest there that bears on SL's case. We have all noted our beliefs that EL must have kept records. According to this channel 10 broadcast on Bill Comeans: channel 10 broadcast
His mother kept assiduous records. Can we assume this is a common denominator of sorts among mothers of missing/murdered children? Of course, some records may be better than others.

We always say the key to cracking SL's case is unknown, somewhere in the future, may involve someone now-unknown stepping forward ... but maybe the Holy Grail in Sylvia's disappearance is finding EL's records. I remember sometime back hearing that these may be in unopened boxes somewhere in JL's home. I cannot urge this seach more fervently.

Bbms- I agree, and I would be really surprised if there were no records: or notes/journal, school records, medical records, PI findings, correspondences, or contacts. Since Sylvia lived at home, I imagine there would be her personal and school files as well. --EL's thoughts, (or even Sylvia's), if written down, but never expressed to anyone, let alone the authorities could be the key. (I'm remembering finding my own mother's writings on life, love, and family tragedy, after she passed.) There were some surprises!

For what it is worth, I want to acknowledge that this would be a very difficult task for an only remaining family member to take on. -But, I can't help but wonder--since no one on the outside is privy to an entire police investigation, potentially finding a connecting piece could be the cold case squad's "Aha missing link" moment. --Something to think about...

 

[Jmoose]

I've been momentarily swept up by the new thread on the case I mentioned earlier. I found one thing of interest there that bears on SL's case. We have all noted our beliefs that EL must have kept records. According to this channel 10 broadcast on Bill Comeans: channel 10 broadcast
His mother kept assiduous records. Can we assume this is a common denominator of sorts among mothers of missing/murdered children? Of course, some records may be better than others.

We always say the key to cracking SL's case is unknown, somewhere in the future, may involve someone now-unknown stepping forward ... but maybe the Holy Grail in Sylvia's disappearance is finding EL's records. I remember sometime back hearing that these may be in unopened boxes somewhere in JL's home. I cannot urge this seach more fervently.

I can only speak for myself, as a pack rat, and more importantly, a mother-I would have kept everything!

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Original post TBM:

For what it is worth, I want to acknowledge that this would be a very difficult task for an only remaining family member to take on.

True, but the boxes could be located, superficially explored with a spouse or friend, and when identified, handed directly over to LE. Me, I would catalog and copy first, but I'm PROBABLY a nutcase. Even if JL wanted to do that to ensure he got all records back, it could be handled by someone at a remove from the loss. My point is just that this record is such an important potential resource, it should not be overlooked any longer. JMO

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I can only speak for myself, as a pack rat, and more importantly, a mother-I would have kept everything!

Ditto. When my daughter was in college, I made her cull her elementary school things because I couldn't toss any of it.

That said, at some point in a search of this kind, it would have to become clear, even to someone who is not like this, that memory is not adequate (especially a grieving memory), that records are needed to keep from walking in circles, so to speak -- from calling the same people twice, forgetting what so-and-so said, misremembering names and phone numbers, etc., etc.

I would probably even try to work out my own thinking in writing because it's just too hard to do it in your head.

 

[rosemadderlake]

Original post TBM:


True, but the boxes could be located, superficially explored with a spouse or friend, and when identified, handed directly over to LE. Me, I would catalog and copy first, but I'm PROBABLY a nutcase. Even if JL wanted to do that to ensure he got all records back, it could be handled by someone at a remove from the loss. My point is just that this record is such an important potential resource, it should not be overlooked any longer. JMO

I am not sure the mechanics of dealing with the files is the issue. But, bbm: this is what I would do, too, b/c I am a nutcase about such things, too!

I'll add that I think it would be very difficult for those close to Sylvia to determine what is relevant without knowing all the pieces of an investigation. If that is the hurdle that needs to be crossed, perhaps there is a way that the cold case squad deals specifically with these issues and potential information from archived files. I would recommend a call to the detective. -See what he says...

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I am not sure the mechanics of dealing with the files is the issue. But, bbm: this is what I would do, too, b/c I am a nutcase about such things, too!

I'll add that I think it would be very difficult for those close to Sylvia to determine what is relevant without knowing all the pieces of an investigation. If that is the hurdle that needs to be crossed, perhaps there is a way that the cold case squad deals specifically with these issues and potential information from archived files. I would recommend a call to the detective. -See what he says...

BBM: No, of course. I don't think that either. I must be moving too quickly and not communicating carefully enough. Sorry

I am suggesting that the mechanics could be handled in such as way as to prevent the family member from sinking to the depths he's trying to avoid. I don't think it would be too hard to superficially ID something that isn't, say, the family's household accounts or photo albums. Having just done this with my mother's things, I found it pretty easy to sort wheat from chaff. By then passing the "wheat" along to someone a little more removed -- LE or a friend -- to dig a little deeper, the family member could avoid immersing himself in the minutia that brings back the painful memories. I am saying, I guess, that I think there is a way around the obstacle we all know is in front of him, and that the possible outcome could be worth the effort. JMO

BBM2: I don't think the friend or other helper should be asked to determine whether the stuff sorted at the top level is relevant to an investigation -- just whether it looks like it may have something to do with SL's disappearance. Who knows, maybe at this point the detective may want to help (or assign someone to help). I agree that a call to the detective would be a great idea.

Glad to know I'll have company in the nuthouse

 

[Jmoose]

I guess I belong in the nuthouse too, because I am in agreement with everything you guys have said. I don't doubt for one minute that EL saved a whole bunch of stuff from the time of Sylvia's disappearance-especially stuff that relates or may relate to it. Where they looked, who they spoke to, what was said and what the police told them. Could or would she really keep all of it in her head? If there is anything from that time still in existence, the cold case detectives need to see it, and help to keep JL from upsetting himself more with the job of it

 

[galillian]

Hi Everyone: Here are the answers to some of your questions:

BBM1: By any chance are your parents avaialble to ask? I'm just thinking that at 13 you may have missed something they heard about and/or shielded you from. Did you grow up near Sylvia's neighborhood? Thanks for that window into the publicity. We have all questioned that quite intensely.

My mom is 78 years old and I called her to ask her before I posted. She had never heard of Sylvia’s case. I find it interesting, especially in light of the Polish/Slavic aspect of her name because my mom has Polish heritage. At age 13, I was in advanced classes and would read the paper on my own, etc. Just a year later, the “Son of Sam” was active and I can still remember being petrified. My parents didn’t shelter us. My dad was very straightforward. I did not grow up near Sylvia’s neighborhood, but Staten Island is very small.

Your post speaks to the random possibilities. I read there were big crowds at the movie theater for "Jaws" in 1975. I have wondered IF Sylvia left the car in an argument, did she, not thinking clearly let her guard down, and accept a ride from a stranger?

It’s possible the she accepted a ride from a stranger. The Verrazano Bridge opened in 1964 and the area where the theater is located was previously rural with farms and a small rural airport. There was a lot of open space. Richmond Avenue is the main road, but wasn’t as wide as it is now. Due to the open space, a lot of houses were being built for people migrating from Brooklyn. It was easier to move to Staten Island because of the bridge and new people were moving in. My father’s family moved to the island in 1860 and some of my relatives are still there. I can remember my grandfather talking about the new people moving in, at that time. So it is possible that someone new and unknown to police could have picked her up while she was walking in the area.

In addition, I also wanted to say that I grew up in Polish/Slavic neighborhood in Staten Island. There were a couple neighborhoods like that on the island. I became interested in Sylvia’s case because I saw her name. My first search was “Staten Island” and her Polish/Slavic name stood out to me. That’s how I got to this thread. However, she did not live in the Polish/Slavic area. Great Kills was a really nice place to live that was near the beaches.

On a different topic, I noticed that at least two of Biegenwald’s victims had Polish last names. Not sure if it is a coincidence. Back then on the island, you could almost tell by looking at someone, whether they were Polish, etc because of being exposed to the ethnic neighborhoods. Bayonne, NJ was and still is a Polish area.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Gallilian's post got me thinkng about Biegenwald again. One of his victims -- 18-year-old Anna Olesiewicz -- was literally just walking along the boardwalk in Asbury Park, when he managed to lure her (how?) into his car -- a scenario that comes very close to one of the possibilities we've imagined for what could have happened to SL in 1975.

One thing I find interesting about him is that when he was arrested in 1983 he was found to be in possession of Rohypnol, which strikes me as early for the use of that drug. I think of it as a 90s phenomenon. Indeed, according to Wikipedia:
Flunitrazepam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"It first appeared in the US in late 1983 - mid 1984." I wonder how got his hands on it? And how he used it? The only way I know it to be administered is oral, so I assume he would have had to get someone to drink something to use it to incapacitate them.

It's also interesting that this period in the mid-70s is a murky one for both Rand and Biegenwald, in terms of how very little LE knows about their activities. All that seems to be known is they were both on SI.

Yep, still on the table, but no clearer than before.

 

[Jmoose]

I caught an episode of Disappeared recently, and it got me thinking about how difficult it can be to match a missing person up with a UID. In the case of Samantha Bonnell, the subject of this particular episode, the officer who took the missing person report, used the date the report was made, as the date Samantha was last seen. This girl's mother nearly went mad combing the Doe Network site trying to find her daughter among the many unidentified females listed. She found a drawing of a girl who looked a lot like her daughter, but was told (and assumed) that this UID could not be her daughter, because she was found dead before her daughter went missing. Without droning on, it subsequently came to light that the date on the police report that Samantha was last seen was recorded wrong, fixed, and then dentals were compared and the ID was made. Her shoe size was also wrong on the UID's description-to me, this says that sometimes it does pay to submit a match-if there is DNA and/or dental records, there could be a match. The only thing is, LE has the last word, it seems, on whether or not they're going to actually make the comparison. Samantha's mother was pretty sure that the UID was her daughter, and couldn't convince LE that it was her. There must be many cases like this out there-especially when the missing person is reported by a friend or relative who isn't sure when the disappearance actually took place.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

I caught an episode of Disappeared recently, and it got me thinking about how difficult it can be to match a missing person up with a UID. In the case of Samantha Bonnell, the subject of this particular episode, the officer who took the missing person report, used the date the report was made, as the date Samantha was last seen. This girl's mother nearly went mad combing the Doe Network site trying to find her daughter among the many unidentified females listed. She found a drawing of a girl who looked a lot like her daughter, but was told (and assumed) that this UID could not be her daughter, because she was found dead before her daughter went missing. Without droning on, it subsequently came to light that the date on the police report that Samantha was last seen was recorded wrong, fixed, and then dentals were compared and the ID was made. Her shoe size was also wrong on the UID's description-to me, this says that sometimes it does pay to submit a match-if there is DNA and/or dental records, there could be a match. The only thing is, LE has the last word, it seems, on whether or not they're going to actually make the comparison. Samantha's mother was pretty sure that the UID was her daughter, and couldn't convince LE that it was her. There must be many cases like this out there-especially when the missing person is reported by a friend or relative who isn't sure when the disappearance actually took place.

I saw that episode. You're right! Good points.

 

[Jmoose]

Everyone at Websleuths should consider reading "The Restless Sleep" by Stacy Horn-as we discussed sometime last year, it's an inside look at NYC's Cold Case Squad. Because I'm a nerd, I took some notes when reading it-as I think GBMG said, it can be a discouraging read, to discover that in NYC, almost no pre-1980 evidence exists in the possession of the NYPD's property clerk. Also that the inventory and storage operations were poorly handled with no climate control until they finally got serious about it in the 90's, thanks to DNA testing. The inventory in the warehouse is catalogued with pens and logbooks, because computerization is too expensive. The upside is that now, the property clerks are doing a much better job of keeping track of the evidence when it is "checked out", to make sure it comes back, which it frequently did not.

I was mightily discouraged to read that evidence collected before 1990 may be difficult to retrieve, if it hasn't been lost or even destroyed, but very impressed by the dedication shown by these detectives. Stacy told me by email that these detectives put a lot of time in on Sylvia's disappearance. This all makes me wonder if they could have found her purse or a shoe or something that subsequently may have disappeared after coming into police custody.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

Everyone at Websleuths should consider reading "The Restless Sleep" by Stacy Horn-as we discussed sometime last year, it's an inside look at NYC's Cold Case Squad. Because I'm a nerd, I took some notes when reading it-as I think GBMG said, it can be a discouraging read, to discover that in NYC, almost no pre-1980 evidence exists in the possession of the NYPD's property clerk. Also that the inventory and storage operations were poorly handled with no climate control until they finally got serious about it in the 90's, thanks to DNA testing. The inventory in the warehouse is catalogued with pens and logbooks, because computerization is too expensive. The upside is that now, the property clerks are doing a much better job of keeping track of the evidence when it is "checked out", to make sure it comes back, which it frequently did not.

I was mightily discouraged to read that evidence collected before 1990 may be difficult to retrieve, if it hasn't been lost or even destroyed, but very impressed by the dedication shown by these detectives. Stacy told me by email that these detectives put a lot of time in on Sylvia's disappearance. This all makes me wonder if they could have found her purse or a shoe or something that subsequently may have disappeared after coming into police custody.

BBM: Did she say when? Does she mean once Det. Savage was in charge? It strikes me as strange that they could have done that before that time without interviewing MMQC ...

A purse or shoe would be a serious find. Would it be enough to change her designation from "missing" to "suspicious"?

 

[Jmoose]

BBM: Did she say when? Does she mean once Det. Savage was in charge? It strikes me as strange that they could have done that before that time without interviewing Mary ...

A purse or shoe would be a serious find. Would it be enough to change her designation from "missing" to "suspicious"?

She did not specify who or exactly when-just that the Cold Case detectives did log quite a few hours on Sylvia's disappearance. In fact, I told her that our VIs weren't impressed with the investigation (or lack of it), in general, and she was very surprised and maybe even a little put out when I told her that. At that point, I qualified my statement to say that what I meant was the initial investigation back in 1975.

Regarding purse or shoe-this is only my imagination wandering because of what I read about evidence and how it's handled-but something compelled the Cold Case Squad to work on it-was it JL's request? Probably.

I don't remember now-did Mary never have a conversation with Det. Savage at all, or did she finally around or after 2010? For some reason I thought she finally did, but I might have that wrong-where is Epiphany when I need her steeltrap mind? (She has an uncanny ability to find this stuff).

I guess my point in Sylvia's case is that, even if evidence might have been collected, there is a pretty good chance that it would have been destroyed by now, or at least misplaced somewhere. I don't think I doubt the dedication of the Cold Case detectives, though-but they can't do anything about a poorly coordinated investigation in 1975, or a lack of evidence.

 

[GoingByMyGut]

She did not specify who or exactly when-just that the Cold Case detectives did log quite a few hours on Sylvia's disappearance. In fact, I told her that our VIs weren't impressed with the investigation (or lack of it), in general, and she was very surprised and maybe even a little put out when I told her that. At that point, I qualified my statement to say that what I meant was the initial investigation back in 1975.

Regarding purse or shoe-this is only my imagination wandering because of what I read about evidence and how it's handled-but something compelled the Cold Case Squad to work on it-was it JL's request? Probably.

I don't remember now-did Mary never have a conversation with Det. Savage at all, or did she finally around or after 2010? For some reason I thought she finally did, but I might have that wrong-where is Epiphany when I need her steeltrap mind? (She has an uncanny ability to find this stuff).

I guess my point in Sylvia's case is that, even if evidence might have been collected, there is a pretty good chance that it would have been destroyed by now, or at least misplaced somewhere. I don't think I doubt the dedication of the Cold Case detectives, though-but they can't do anything about a poorly coordinated investigation in 1975, or a lack of evidence.

BBM: She had a phone conversation with him, but declined to go in for an in-person interview because she was nursing her husband at the time. She talks about it earlier in the thread. You could probably find it by searching "Savage."

 

[Jmoose]

BBM: She had a phone conversation with him, but declined to go in for an in-person interview because she was nursing her husband at the time. She talks about it earlier in the thread. You could probably find it by searching "Savage."

Oh yeah-now I remember. They offered to bring her in, but her husband was sick and she couldn't leave him. I guess they couldn't come to her? I think they attribute it to jurisdiction, but I wonder if it's actually their budget that won't allow them to go to where Mary was? Is there some reason that a statement must be taken at the precinct, or can they take it anywhere?

 

[Dushi]

Good morning

Been away and just catching up.

Mary had a conversation with Savage years and years after Sylvias disappearance

 

[Jmoose]

Hey Dushi-missed you!

 

[Dushi]

I have always found it odd that no one spoke to Mary during the initial investigation.
I realize she was not the last person to see her, but did spend the day with Sylvia and certainly could have given insight into her mood etc.