OH OH/PA - Kingsbury Run Murders, Cleveland OH/New Castle PA, 1930's

[STANDREID]

I too think that some of the PA victims were murders by the Cleveland killer. As I understand, several of them occurred when Sweeney was in the lunatic asylum so some don't want to include them because they eliminate him as a suspect.

 

[LindsayLohan6]

sweeney's not a real suspect. i'm surprised that badal would write all those books just to push a cheap phoney suspect who is obviously not the killer. brogue's profile sounds pretty accurate that's the type of killer your looking for and the bodies being roasted in the red stuff is one of the best clues. PA & OH have got to be the same killer, there are too many coincidences for them not to be. Merylo knew that. The railroads, the prostitution, underground homosexual scene, marijuana, homeless, it's someone thats a part of this world, not dr sweeney

 

[Pettibon Junction]

To be fair to Badal, he throws a LOT of disclaimers out there regarding the case against Sweeney. In fact, the suspect he offers the most evidence for is One-Armed Willie.

Badal recently wrote a separate book covering the Newcastle murders. I have no idea if he offers any new suspects therein.

 

[Tempst]

I couldnt disagree with you more. Some of the PA murder victims even had charred the skin! Too me it's obvious they are the same killer, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. For what it's worth Peter Merylo who was the true lead detective was positive they were connected and he's the one who did all the investigating. So i'd go with his view as the most likely accurate. What's so strange is that Merylo's brother in law was suspected, made a false confession and was killed!? wtf there's got to be more to that story! When your reading Badal all the photo credits of Merylo say courtesy of Dolezal because that was his wifes family. Real real strange, would make a great tv series with all the crazu aspects of this case.

But that was a kid, the killer doesn't kill kids in Kingsbury Run. Only one Kingsbury Run victim was burned. The Lady of the Lake was chemically treated with lime.

I think Peter Merylo spent a lot of effort, but he added almost every case to the tally, some of the PA crimes clearly were very different than the Kingsbury ones.

 

[Tempst]

To be fair to Badal, he throws a LOT of disclaimers out there regarding the case against Sweeney. In fact, the suspect he offers the most evidence for is One-Armed Willie.

Badal recently wrote a separate book covering the Newcastle murders. I have no idea if he offers any new suspects therein.

Badal did get a bit too hard on Sweeney, but to be fair, he is the best suspect we've known. While some stuff weren't right, especially the blonde hairs.

 

[Tempst]

sweeney's not a real suspect. i'm surprised that badal would write all those books just to push a cheap phoney suspect who is obviously not the killer. brogue's profile sounds pretty accurate that's the type of killer your looking for and the bodies being roasted in the red stuff is one of the best clues. PA & OH have got to be the same killer, there are too many coincidences for them not to be. Merylo knew that. The railroads, the prostitution, underground homosexual scene, marijuana, homeless, it's someone thats a part of this world, not dr sweeney

He is a real suspect. The best suspect we've known, and it wasn't him, quite a few head investigator focus a lot on him.

Other than the PA murder the the blond hairs, he did fit the killer perfectly. The strength, the knowledge of anatomy, the time of his life went broken, the location of his office, the action he made after being a suspect and a few more.

 

[STANDREID]

Again, my main argument against Sweeney is that he was a rather imposing man as well as being a doctor and the close relative of the area U.S. Congressman so he would have been something of a local celebrity. I think if he was prowling the rail yards and hobo jungles that several people would have seen him and remembered that.

 

[Tempst]

Again, my main argument against Sweeney is that he was a rather imposing man as well as being a doctor and the close relative of the area U.S. Congressman so he would have been something of a local celebrity. I think if he was prowling the rail yards and hobo jungles that several people would have seen him and remembered that.

I don't think he was that famous to the hobos, his drink companion didn't know who he was early on, and we knew that he did use a false name when communicating with that man.

I'm not saying "he is the killer". The main problem is still

The blonde hair
The PA murders
He didn't have connection with the railroad

But still, many stuff does make him very suspicious, he was the best suspect we knew.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

What about Willie Johnson? He may not be *the* butcher but he was certainly **advertiser censored* butcher, as he remains the only individual convicted in Cleveland of a torso murder. Of course, he appears to have been mentally ill and from what I've read of his crime, he was far less organized than the Kingsbury Run killer obviously was. However, he knew Flo Polillo and (allegedly) Rose Wallace.

Perhaps there's something to the idea that the women were killed by a different perp than the men. Both Polillo and the first lady of the lake were disposed of in vessels (burlap sacks and a steamer trunk). If Johnson was the responsible, then the dismemberment is more functional than pathological - he was missing an arm. And none of the known female victims were subjected to the same kind of special attention the men were.

Food for thought.

 

[STANDREID]

You're right about Willie but I think Badal said that he wasn't in Cleveland when the earlier murders occurred - I hope I'm remembering that correctly.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

You're right about Willie but I think Badal said that he wasn't in Cleveland when the earlier murders occurred - I hope I'm remembering that correctly.

I don't remember that detail, but I'm almost certain he was the man seen arguing with Flo Polillo shortly before her death as well as one of the last people to have seen Rose Wallace alive. Could be coincidence, but maybe not.

 

[Tempst]

Did you read the new book? Badal mentioned that hobo Emli Fronek's tale might be connected to Sweeney's office.

 

[Pettibon Junction]

Did you read the new book? Badal mentioned that hobo Emli Fronek's tale might be connected to Sweeney's office.

I haven't read it (yet - I do plan to) but Fronek's tale has been around for a while and is mentioned briefly in Badal's first book on the Butcher.

There was at least one other doctor named as a POI in that book. Wish I had it on me so I could pull up the exact reference.

 

[STANDREID]

Sunday is the 75th anniversary of the discovery of the three decapitated victims in the McKees Rocks, PA boxcars. One was identified as James Nicholson who was described as a homosexual drifter. The others were never identified. Indications were that they may have been killed in Youngstown, OH. None of the heads were ever found.

 

[wfgodot]

A decent overview, from io9.com:

The Ghoulishly True (And Still Unsolved!) Tale of the Cleveland Torso Murderer

 

[STANDREID]

Saturday is the 81st anniversary of the finding of the partial remains of Lady of the Lake #1 aka Victim 0.

Three weeks from today (23rd) is the 80th anniversary of the finding of Andrassy and John Doe I, the crimes that really got the case going.

 

[STANDREID]

Saturday is the 81st anniversary of the finding of the partial remains of Lady of the Lake #1 aka Victim 0.

The upper part of the torso had been found some distance away and two weeks previous but was written off as non-human until the Sept. 5 discovery was made. In late July, a frightened little girl at the beach claimed that she had stepped on a human leg but no one was able to locate what she said she'd encountered. This might have actually been the first discovery of remains. Part of a human arm was found in the area shortly after the September finding. The body was estimated to have been in the water at least 3 months and to have been dead about half a year which would have put the murder in March.

 

[Tempst]

The upper part of the torso had been found some distance away and two weeks previous but was written off as non-human until the Sept. 5 discovery was made. In late July, a frightened little girl at the beach claimed that she had stepped on a human leg but no one was able to locate what she said she'd encountered. This might have actually been the first discovery of remains. Part of a human arm was found in the area shortly after the September finding. The body was estimated to have been in the water at least 3 months and to have been dead about half a year which would have put the murder in March.

Why most of them didn't even get identified? Especially the Tattooed Man.

 

[STANDREID]

I imagine most, if not all, the unidentified victims where from other parts of the country and no one even knew they were in Cleveland. They were probably estranged from their families who eventually just wrote them off as lost somewhere in the populace.

 

[griffinwhippet]

I've been interested in the Cleveland Torso murders. In 1936 to at least 1938 the bodies and decapitated heads of at least 12 people were found in a shanty town.

One of the bodies was unique in that it's head was removed but no other mutilations were inflicted on the body.

The man has been called the tattoo man as he had numerous tattoos on his body -- professional and unprofessional.

My personal goal is to clarify the meanings of tattoos and to try to identify him.

I do not intend to try solve the crime.
It might take a magician to do this.