Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #4 *Arrests*

[otto]

Bbm.
Yes , all good points.
I've thought about the bolded.
Anything is likely.

Investigators needed probable cause to take Tifany Adams' cell phone. Was that April 1, two days after the bloody scene was discovered?

Have we seen the affidavit warrant for Tifany's phone? I'm curious. Was probable cause that Veronica Tifany said she spoke to Veronica at 9 a.m., alleging that Veronica cancelled the visit? Was it because Person 5 was traumatized by shattered car windows, battered women blood pools, and a broken hammer ... so he got a lawyer and reported the murders with immunity? What triggered the warrant to seize Tifany's phone so soon after the murders and before she had a chance to erase history.

 

[browneyes]

IMO, those three burner phones were to be distributed as-
One phone for Cora and Cole to share.
One phone for Tad and Tifany to share.
One phone for that guy who was named in the AA <modsnip - complaining/misunderstanding moderation on the thread>

The five stun guns were to be distributed as-
One for Cora.
One for Cole.
One for Tad.
One for Tifany.
One for that guy who was named in the AA <modsnip - complaining/misunderstanding moderation on the thread>

It was stated by Cora’s daughter that two burner phones were charging at Cora’s house. TA had the other.

 

[Bree1950]

Yes to this. I am beginning to wonder if the participants will try some type of "self-defense" strategy. If Jillian had a gun (we don't know if she did), and if she brandished it at them, and/or got a shot off, since there were no witnesses, they could say they had only planned to scare the women, and it's JK's fault for coming at them with a gun, they only had stun guns/hammers, they had to defend themselves. It makes my brain hurt to try and think like crazy people. This could be TA's justification for cold bloodedly MURDERING innocent people. I still can't believe the ridiculousness of ALL OF IT.

I’m wondering about her buying the stun guns and searching most painful! I hope what ever happened, that these two beautiful Mom’s bodies went into shock right away and they may have not suffered as much as we may think. However, Veronica’s glasses had been smashed with a hammer and there was a broken hammer with them by the car.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

Joe Nullett is the executive director of the Supervised Visitation Network, an association of providers of supervised visitation and exchange services. He says tragedies like what happened in Texas County, Oklahoma, occur much too often but can be avoided.

“There are warning signals and situations in relationships where people should not be exchanging their children without supervised visitation,” said Nullett.

And despite Veronica Butler being accompanied by Jilian Kelley, her court-approved supervisor, Nullett says additional tactics could have been used to keep everyone in the situation safe.

One recommendation Nullet mentioned is to meet at a safety zone with staggered arrivals: the person picking up the child comes first and sits in the waiting area while the other parent arrives 10-15 minutes later and drops off the child.

“Don’t have the people there at the same time,” said Nullett. “It ensures that a parent that is vulnerable can get there, drop their kids off without fear of being followed, without fear of seeing the other parent.”

According to Nullett, police stations or sheriff’s offices aren’t the best locations for exchanges because they are considered unmonitored locations, and security cameras aren’t guaranteed to stop violence.

“There’s been shootings and actual homicides at police stations because these are unmonitored,” said Nullett. “Communities need to invest, right, invest financial dollars in keeping victims of domestic violence, in particular, safe from these exchanges because it’s too often. It’s happening too often in our communities.”

Murder case shines light on custody exchange safety

While it may seem like performing a custody exchange at a police station would be a safer option than along the side of the highway, an expert says that’s not the case.

www.kwch.com

 

[Artis]

And also, I don't think *three* phones ever went to the burial site ... only two… Right? But also the clumps in which the three phones were moving around is a little odd. The language in this part of the affadavit is not crystal clear, but it looks like:

- 9141 and 9085 start the day at the Twomblys’ place, then go to the Cullums. (it doesn’t say where phone 5753 begins its day, but presumably at the Cullums’?

- All three phones then go to the site of the car stop.

- 9141 then goes *back* to the Twomblys and stays there until it goes offline.

- 9085 and 5752 go from the car stop site to the Cullums, and then to the Beasleys, until they go offline as well.

I just thought the way these phones were pairing up with one another in different ways at different times during the day was sort of interesting. That is to say, the one phone that appears to have overnighted at the Cullums’ seems to have made all the stops, whereas the two phones that were staying with the Twomblys had rather different trajectories (one of those two stuck with 5752, whereas the other seems to have gone right home.

Yeah, I thought that was a bit odd. One of the Twomblys gave their burner back to Tifany or Tad. CW said both Cora and Cole came back together, in two different vehicles) so neither of them went to Beasley's property.

 

[tatertot]

Yes to this. I am beginning to wonder if the participants will try some type of "self-defense" strategy. If Jillian had a gun (we don't know if she did), and if she brandished it at them, and/or got a shot off, since there were no witnesses, they could say they had only planned to scare the women, and it's JK's fault for coming at them with a gun, they only had stun guns/hammers, they had to defend themselves. It makes my brain hurt to try and think like crazy people. This could be TA's justification for cold bloodedly MURDERING innocent people. I still can't believe the ridiculousness of ALL OF IT.

I imagine they could try, but running the women off the road (or blocking their access) and approaching them with weapons was an act of aggression that would probably justify any use of force by JK in self defense. Plus, there's the pre-dug hole in the field which didn't serve any other purpose.

I hear you, though. Someone has to defend them in court, but I don't envy their lawyers one bit.

 

[Herat]

I can’t imagine the horror they had to have suffered!

This was intentional torture.

In some states this can be added to the First Degree Murder charge as a special circumstance that can either add the Death Penalty, or remove any chance of parole.

I hope in their cases all 4 get the worst, longest sentences out there and are separated and kept in the worst ugliest prisons.

 

[ClearAhead]

I was starting to feel empathy too..
But when I add his behaviors, assault on the new wife, saying the discussion with his grandmother did not take place, and now knowing he DID know about the plan...I've totally changed my tune.
Massive rehab should be in order, not rehab to get out of jail time.
Wondering what he is thinking about. A dead wife and mother?. A mailed mother?

Did he really know about the plan or was his mother the type to routinely talk tough and toss out verbal threats towards others and so he didn’t take her seriously? Or was that the only one time she made threatening comments - - context makes a big difference. Or maybe his grandmother was confused and heard the threats directly from TA, not WR? He denied telling his grandmother about it.

Regardless this is a very unusual family situation in that grandma appears not to hesitate to throw her grandson under the bus, holding him responsible for his mother’s alleged threats while in rehab, but what could he have done to prevent the tragedy from happening? That’d be a heavy burden to bear. JMO

 

[browneyes]

THERE WERE ONLY THREE BURNERS, per the AA. Never said there were 5, said there were THREE.

THANK YOU! I wondered where FIVE came from.

 

[Artis]

At that point I'm pretty sure she knew how things were going to end. I'ld like to think she did. I just can't get past the thought of a broken hammer in the road. Cold-blooded. JMO

The autopsies are going to horrible, I'm afraid. Broken hammer, glasses in the road, huge amounts of blood. It was intended that these murders be as brutal as possible. Tifany's rage killings.

 

[otto]

^^rsbm

I don't think it likely that VB's minor brother will seek custody of his niece and nephew since he too is a child!

But I agree that the teen would likely be the target.

However, I've long thought it telling that WR, the father of the subject children (custody battle), who at the time of the alleged SA was enjoying shared custody, didn't personally react here-- either legally or illegally!

Instead, it was his mother, TA, sounding the bells and whistles-- with her trusted, hand picked sources, of course.

And it's a fact that WR is no stranger to criminal assault. IMO, you'd think if ever one had a valid reason to go off on somebody.... just sayin. MOO

ETA-- Custody Summary from the Public Docket:

• The parents WR and VB were never married and share two children born in 2015 and 2018.
• December 2018, the parties terminated their relationship.
• February 2019, the Father, WR, instituted an action to determine paternity and share custody of the children.
• May 2019 - the Court awarded sole, legal custody to the Mother, VB, and standard visitation to the Father, WR.
• May 2021 - the Father, WR, appealed the trial court's order.
• August 2022 - Based on the Appellant's (WR) brief only, the trial court's custody decision was reversed, and the matter remanded to the trial court to enter a shared custody agreement.
• September 2022 - Appellant/Petitioner WR's motion for appeal related attorneys fees denied.

OSCN Case Details

The August 2022 custody affidavit (posted upthread) painted Veronica as a negligent parent who routinely left her children with unreliable friends while trying to keep her job during unstable career and childcare options. The implication was that personal problems interfered with providing a stable home for the two children.

Wrangler got custody, Veronica was reduced to supervised visits once a week.

Was she fleeing an abusive relationship in 2019? She lost custody in 2022.

Between 2022 and 2024, <modsnip: no source link> and was arrested for assaulting either his pregnant wife, or his mother in law ??? The charge was reduced to a short stint in jail, and rehab, which is where he was when his mother murdered Veronica.

Meanwhile, Tifany took control of Wrangler's children, even enlisting police to prevent Wrangler from having legal custody and access to his children.

<modsnip: screenshots with no source links>

 

[Artis]

Chris Cuomo about to discuss Paul Grice right now.

 

[browneyes]

Chris Cuomo about to discuss Paul Grice right now.

Chris looks horrified listening to the details, as am I. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Cool Cats]

OSBI: Grandma admitted responsibility for deaths of two Kansas women in Oklahoma

New affidavit contains revelations about Oklahoma Panhandle murder case that has attracted national attention.

news.yahoo.com

Updated Thu, April 18, 2024 at 7:53 PM EDT

A lieutenant with the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation completed a new affidavit about the case Tuesday in support of a prosecution request that they remain in jail.

"After her arrest on April 13, 2024, during a custodial interview, Adams made statements to law enforcement indicating she was responsible for the deaths of Butler and Kelley," Lt. Amie Gates wrote.

 

[Artis]

Chris Cuomo about to discuss Paul Grice right now.

Okay, that was short. One quick reporter interview with someone who "knows" (of) Grice. Says he has a young family, works hard, nice guy. Said Grice was interviewed by the FBI and let go. Why would he have been interviewed by the FBI rather than the sheriff's office or the OSBI? Sorry, but that just adds to my suspicions.

 

[otto]

While I admit my first assumption was also that they were in a well, I wonder why the 16 year old though that...if bodies had been put in wells before by this bunch.

Maybe Cora's daughter heard more than anvil talk during pseudo god-law meetings. Bodies were left under the dirt near a dam, near water. "Something like that" is true, but not in a well. Cora told her daughter that she murdered Veronica and Jilian, but was coy with location. It's near water, guess again. Thankfully, CW has stable adults in her life that helped her navigate murderous mother and step-father.
<modsnip: screenshot with no source link>

 

[Artis]

It's quite possible that the person 5, named in the affidavit, was at Road L during the kidnapping. He might have been horrified at what happened. There's no doubt that it was a planned ambush against two women, but did he anticipate brutality with a hammer?

Veronica's glasses were found South of her car near a broken hammer. This sounds like an extremely violent, brutal attack. Did she try to run, but was hopelessly out-numbered? What about Jilian? Did she think that she was safe because they couldn't have anything against her?

Person 5 might have expected a soft abduction rather than brutal violence. It didn't go as planned might be a serious under-statement.

Did the fifth person contact police with a lawyer, obtain immunity, and was his statement then corroborated by Cora's daughter?

Reasonable questions though remember that CW said he overheard the conversation saying he traveled to Kansas in the first murder attempt.

 

[x_files]

The enti


The entire LE and court system need to be examined. Far too often, women are dismissed by both and this is the end result. What will it take for them to be taken seriously? So many children left without their mothers because the justice system failed them.

When more women are in LE, and are judges...perhaps?

Yes, they are going to want to stay away from her like a dirty diaper in a Walmart parking lot.

If they were smart they would have stayed away BEFORE her like a dirty diaper in a Walmart parking lot.

 

[NWay]

The fishiness and mystery are driving the wild speculation. That's natural. When there's an obvious fact vacuum--theories spring up to fill it.

The options as I see them -- in the order of likelihood are as follows:

• PG was involved with the group and started singing, but the feds cut a deal that they're not ready to reveal. He's in witness protection. Somewhere.
• PG was not a plant but was weak, and the group sensed he might start singing, so they offed him. The FBI knows but is not ready to make it public.
• PG was a plant (FBI, IRS, some other agency), and he was instrumental in getting the group to drop the February mission, but the group sensed he was weak and did not let him in on the latest mission. He's in PC.

We could go on all day -- and we probably will -- trying to figure out why this guy was listed as being a participant in the AA. Still, we know virtually nothing else about him, and LE says they're not looking at arresting anyone else.

So, he's dead or in custody of some sort.

All JMOO and pure speculation.

All viable theories but I am still baffled why put the name in AA?

I'd put out before that I thought LE did it to keep PG on short leash but then the statement made by the OSBI Spokesperson about not expecting more arrests etc. imo simply doesn't make sense. Perhaps the Spokesperson hadn't rehearsed a response to the PG questions that were inevitable? IDK. But, I've not seen someone named in an AA with the fact pattern seen in the AA for PG and NOT then be named a POI at a minimum.

Just hope LE figures it out or has PG in protective custody.

MOO

 

[doublestop]

Yes to this. I am beginning to wonder if the participants will try some type of "self-defense" strategy. If Jillian had a gun (we don't know if she did), and if she brandished it at them, and/or got a shot off, since there were no witnesses, they could say they had only planned to scare the women, and it's JK's fault for coming at them with a gun, they only had stun guns/hammers, they had to defend themselves. It makes my brain hurt to try and think like crazy people. This could be TA's justification for cold bloodedly MURDERING innocent people. I still can't believe the ridiculousness of ALL OF IT.

But if Jilian pulled a gun, it would have been in self-defense, as she would have had reasonable fear for her life.