Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #4 *Arrests*

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ClearAhead said:
CW can only be right about what CT told her as CW was not there. But considering everything we know, CT certainly does not exhibit a high degree of morals and integrity. But as she expected her 16 year old daughter to clean a car involved in a double murder, I don’t think she’d hesitate at trying to harm the reputation of an innocent person. JMO
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Fair enough and even CT and the two guys are innocent until proven guilty, even though they've been arrested.
 
Simply Southern said:
CW was giving hearsay testimony, she was not a witness.

Per media reports he was interviewed twice FBI and locally. As standard procedure, I'm sure FBI has his cell phone records and more. At the last press conference, they thanked ALL the companies for quick response to their subpoenas/search warrant for records. I'm sure the request was for several months prior to the event. Digital Data forensic evidence, is becoming a major component in trials.

Big Brother knows where we are at all times and can quickly extract the information.

Until PG is charged or stated as a person of interest, he is innocent.
Moo
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Everyone is innocent until proven guilty, even TA who may claim self defense. I am aware that CW's statement was not as an eye witness. As far we know, the only eye witnesses are whoever did it.
 
ClearAhead said:
Yes I agree. It’s not as if she deserves to be complimented however it might warrant a sigh of relief by the families of the victims because it sure seems as if she’s admitting her guilt.
BBM
www.koco.com

Court docs: Suspect charged in Kansas moms murders told investigators she's responsible for deaths

Court documents say a woman accused in the murder of two Kansas women whose bodies were found in the Oklahoma Panhandle gave a statement saying she was responsible for the deaths.
www.koco.com www.koco.com
The court documents say Adams gave a recorded statement to investigators after her arrest that she was responsible for the deaths of Butler and Kelley.
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1. I said previously that I wonder if this is a wily defense ploy where TA (or, rather, her lawyer) can claim she wasn't properly Mirandized and/or wasn't represented by her lawyer at the time of giving the statement. And then working to have that statement and perhaps associated evidence not allowed in her trial.

2. Could she have claimed responsibility in the manner of, "I was running 5 minutes late and if I had only been on time, I could have saved VB and her supervisor from their dastardly attackers because I'm always packing. Woe is me! <insert dramatic sigh>" (Obviously I am hamming it up on TA's behalf.)

I don't trust TA and I think it's too simple to be as straightforward as that released statement seems.

MOO and just wild speculation on my part.
 
Artis said:
In fact, that looks just like MY car so I'll have to keep this in mind. :oops:
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Tow truck companies will always ask your year, make, and model before sending a truck for this very reason. My car has to have a flatbed tow truck to tow it but I don't need to request it, they know by the car info.

I think they planned to drive the car away. If they had a flatbed with towing capabilities it would be referred to as a flatbed tow truck, or tow truck, not just a flatbed imo.
 
simlyme said:
The affadavit says owned by Clint Tombly. CW had to clean out the pickup owned by cora and cole. I also found a pic of what I believe is the flatbed and it does look like a car could be driven on it.
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What if #5 was in Clint's vehicle and it was his DNA that CW had to clean? Seriously, why would you put a messy body in the cab when you have a truck bed?
 
Cool Cats said:
I do not think TA had any say in Wrangler going into treatment. The treatment was court ordered.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1775161488732237927
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Looking at the court order, that comes from Cimarron County where it’s been questioned how much influence did TA have with the judges, sheriffs, etc in Cimarron County. If the court order came out of a KS county or the other side of OK, it might not raise eyebrows. MOO
 
Bigditch said:
What if #5 was in Clint's vehicle and it was his DNA that CW had to clean? Seriously, why would you put a messy body in the cab when you have a truck bed?
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I'm not sure we know ho many vehicles the perps used. It was Cora and Cole who drove the pick up and flatbed, per Cora's daughter. What were Tifany and Tad driving and did they use one or two vehicles. If Grice was there, what was he driving? BTW, Ashleigh Banfield is on (re-run from earlier tonight) going on and on about Grice.
 
Error505 said:
Looking at the court order, that comes from Cimarron County where it’s been questioned how much influence did TA have with the judges, sheriffs, etc in Cimarron County. If the court order came out of a KS county or the other side of OK, it might not raise eyebrows. MOO
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Looking through the AA again I was a bit curious about the reference to WR having a 'bit' of 'awareness' or 'knowledge' that that the custody situation wasn't something that he needed to worry his pretty head about as TA had the situation 'in control'!

Not being an attorney makes understanding this all a bit challenging but if someone (here WR) appears to be in rehab on a 6 year suspended sentence and then seems to have knowledge and certain awareness of his mother having a multi year custody battle 'in control', I'm not seeing how this doesn't bring his suspended sentence into question or have him removed from rehab and placed in a secure location such as 'jail' or 'prison'? WR supposedly had primary custody at the time of the murder of VB and JK and so IDK how that situation could continue given first the gun charge, next the DV charge and finally the knowledge/awareness that TA had the custody situation 'in control'? We learned today from the interview with Atty Jones that there were some 'interim orders' that aren't visible on the OK website as they are sealed so perhaps TA had some guardianship role with the children? At present all that is unknown and perhaps we will learn more as the TA case moves to trial. It just seems that the TA claim to the children might have been quite legally tenuous and moving into the next hearing it might have been probable that VB would gain custody or certainly unsupervised visitation and this was enough to kick off the violent spiral of TA and the rest of "Gods Misfits"? IDK, just speculation.

Sorry, but little that WR experienced within the 'Court System' of Cimarron County in terms of a new gun charge (he was already a previously convicted felon) and new DV charge against at pregnant woman and her mother is making much sense to me OTHER THAN my new found believe that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE legally in Cimarron County Courts if you have the right connections!

I still can't puzzle out precisely what happened and why in Court but it appears WR had a short jail stay, 6 year suspended sentence (combo plan it appears for new gun charge and DV charge against his pregnant wife and her mother) followed by a leisurely 6 month stay at the Salvation Army rehab facility in OKC. This would put him back on the ranch after rehab with no additional jail time so far as I can tell unless I guess he gets another charge for something else which MIGHT put him back in jail for a parole violation? IDK, seems like a sweet deal for a gun charge, particularly given his violent past, DV history, multiyear drug and alcohol history etc. WR was not a first time offender by any stretch and yet no extended prison on a felony gun charge. WHY?

Right.

Does anyone understand how any of this is possible? Gun charges for prior felons are treated seriously in most States but don't seem to be much of a big deal at all here for WR so far as I can tell? Simply baffling.

Perhaps its as simple as ANYTHING is legally possible in Cimarron County?

MOO
 
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Bigditch said:
What if #5 was in Clint's vehicle and it was his DNA that CW had to clean? Seriously, why would you put a messy body in the cab when you have a truck bed?
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Well, as Cora told cw , it didn't go as planned. A number of things could have happened that they may have had to put the women in a different vehicle.I don't know what their plan was with the vehicles. Remember they're dumber than dirt and thought burner phones couldn't be traced. The only for sure thing is ,is that they are evil and disgusting people that have been charged with murder and other charges.
I don't know why she had to clean out the PU truck and not the other.
 
agilbe said:
I'm not sure about that. In all of their infinite wisdom (NOT) they threw the burner phones in the hole too. I think it might have taken longer, but the end result would have been the same. Especially since Cora's brave daughter told all she knew. JMO
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But if Cora’s daughter had not went to LE, then LE wouldn’t have known about the burner phones and would not have known who was involved. They would have most likely had TA on their list of who may have had something to do with it but they would not have had enough evidence to get a warrant for her phone tracking. I think eventually they would have been caught, but it would have taken a lot longer.
 
NWay said:
Looking through the AA again I was a bit curious about the reference to WR having a 'bit' of 'awareness' or 'knowledge' that that the custody situation wasn't something that he needed to worry his pretty head about as TA had the situation 'in control'!

Not being an attorney makes understanding this all a bit challenging but if someone (here WR) appears to be in rehab on a 6 year suspended sentence and then seems to have knowledge and certain awareness of his mother having a multi year custody battle 'in control', I'm not seeing how this doesn't bring his suspended sentence into question or have him removed from rehab and placed in a secure location such as 'jail' or 'prison'? WR supposedly had primary custody at the time of the murder of VB and JK and so IDK how that situation could continue given first the gun charge, next the DV charge and finally the knowledge/awareness that TA had the custody situation 'in control'? We learned today from the interview with Atty Jones that there were some 'interim orders' that aren't visible on the OK website as they are sealed so perhaps TA had some guardianship role with the children? At present all that is unknown and perhaps we will learn more as the TA case moves to trial. It just seems that the TA claim to the children might have been quite legally tenuous and moving into the next hearing it might have been probable that VB would gain custody or certainly unsupervised visitation and this was enough to kick off the violent spiral of TA and the rest of "Gods Misfits"? IDK, just speculation.

Sorry, but little that WR experienced within the 'Court System' of Cimarron County in terms of a new gun charge (he was already a previously convicted felon) and new DV charge against at pregnant woman and her mother is making much sense to me OTHER THAN my new found believe that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE legally in Cimarron County Courts if you have the right connections!

I still can't puzzle out precisely what happened and why in Court but it appears WR had a short jail stay, 6 year suspended sentence (combo plan it appears for new gun charge and DV charge against his pregnant wife and her mother) followed by a leisurely 6 month stay at the Salvation Army rehab facility in OKC. This would put him back on the ranch after rehab with no additional jail time so far as I can tell unless I guess he gets another charge for something else which MIGHT put him back in jail for a parole violation? IDK, seems like a sweet deal for a gun charge, particularly given his violent past, DV history, multiyear drug and alcohol history etc. WR was not a first time offender by any stretch and yet no extended prison on a felony gun charge. WHY?

Right.

Does anyone understand how any of this is possible? Gun charges for prior felons are treated seriously in most States but don't seem to be much of a big deal at all here for WR so far as I can tell? Simply baffling.

Perhaps its as simple as ANYTHING is legally possible in Cimarron County?

MOO
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I have found it quite odd that there has not been more social media remarks about Wrangler. IMO, his abused and pregnant wife has spoken, and has spoken to authorities.
So we know that LE knows more than we do. And I know that those of us here on WS are betwixt and between on whether to feel empathy or anger with him.

I guess I feel that he "has gotten away with murder" figuratively, but he has been weakened by his alcohol/drug addictions and his mother.

I DO think that TA could manipulate authorities, and thus, DID have something to do with this "easy way out" for Wrangler. Constituents with authority and power often manipulate municipal authority.

And Cimarron County. I really hope we get into more of the dealings within this county. In my opinion, I believe they have "blood on their hands" in regards to the handling of the custody dealings and Wrangler.
 
<modsnip - quoted post discussing a group that has not been linked to this group via MSM or LE reports>


It seems at least 3 of the 4 defendants are owners of many acres. Just one question: are their land taxes paid? If so, they are acknowledging the government and its power over them. TA has held office <modsnip - political>, suggesting to me she's not a "sovereign citizen" but likes to be a "big man on campus." Am I the only one who thinks it's an oxymoron that the movement claims the law has no jurisdiction over them, yet they spend the money and time to file papers in the "legal" system . . . completely nuts -- in my opinion.
 
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According to the court documents, Adams and her boyfriend, Tad Cullum, have a violent history. They say the two have made "death threats and intimidation against individuals who disagree with their ideas."

www.koco.com

Court docs: Suspect charged in Kansas moms murders told investigators she's responsible for deaths

Court documents say a woman accused in the murder of two Kansas women whose bodies were found in the Oklahoma Panhandle gave a statement saying she was responsible for the deaths.
www.koco.com www.koco.com
 
CuriousCricket said:
It seems at least 3 of the 4 defendants are owners of many acres. Just one question: are their land taxes paid? If so, they are acknowledging the government and its power over them. TA has held office <modsnip - political commentary>, suggesting to me she's not a "sovereign citizen" but likes to be a "big man on campus." Am I the only one who thinks it's an oxymoron that the movement claims the law has no jurisdiction over them, yet they spend the money and time to file papers in the "legal" system . . . completely nuts -- in my opinion.
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Interesting question.

Frankly I think their true god is $$$$ and in case of TA, power. I cannot speculate on Tad as he seems to have simply lost his way following TA so far as I can tell based on the reporting. TA seems to be sitting on land value in OK in range of 8-10 million and she owns land in other states too. She has a good amt of debt too so her net worth is less than land value obviously. WR made mention of his access to Trust and leaving his share to his son so it’s unclear how much TA has personally vs shared with others via a Trust imo?

Looking at the land records it does seem the two landowners here pay their taxes, enter into loan ageements and sign leases etc. They seem to do all the normal rancher things to make money and keep their operations going. But their resistance seems to be in form of nuisance items like not wearing seatbelts, not registering their cars, speeding and parking at will, not honoring agreements when it suits their purposes etc.

It’s hard to assess the depths of their beliefs on anything absent hearing from them imo. I do wonder if they will defend themselves or will they lawyer up?

<modsnip - attempting to sleuth people that are not POI in this case>
 
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Bree1950 said:
But if Cora’s daughter had not went to LE, then LE wouldn’t have known about the burner phones and would not have known who was involved. They would have most likely had TA on their list of who may have had something to do with it but they would not have had enough evidence to get a warrant for her phone tracking. I think eventually they would have been caught, but it would have taken a lot longer.
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I do think LE would have figured out the burner phone situation eventually as they most likely did a dump of local tower in the area. I think someone posted early on that we aren’t dealing with that many towers. I think finding the burners saved LE time but given the limited population I think it would have been possible to isolate the burners with some work looking at the data from the towers.
MOO
 
Gae said:
What if one of the people named in the AA lived directly across the road from Callum? So close that it could muddle up the digital evidence?
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To me, that would still not explain one going to the Twombley's as Cora's daughter said Cora and Cole returned at the same time in the two trucks they had left in. Why did this just one phone separate from the other two -- at this point?
 
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