Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

[otto]

Your opnion thanks, interesting, but I do not see it this way.

<modsnip: quoted post was removed> I think there were two things happening at the same time. On the one hand, Tifany wanted to murder Veronica before the April 17 court hearing to retain control over the children (for unknown reasons), and Tifany had to ramp up her misfit gang to commit murder prior to the hearing.

We have what Tifany knew, and what her gang knew, and I don't think they were the same. I see Tifany as the mastermind, and I think she manipulated her gang into believing that the children were in imminent danger <modsnip: speculation not based on known facts>. Personally, I don't think that is true, but I think her gang believed it was true.

If Tifany had chosen another day, where there was no birthday party, the suspects might have had the advantage of the car being undiscovered until the evening. That would have been a better plan for avoiding arrest. The gang took a greater risk of being discovered by planning the murder prior to the birthday party - when Veronica's extended family was expecting her at 11 a.m. <modsnip>

 

[sunspun]

While I don't disagree with the bulk of your speculation, I do feel that the reason TA gave the regular supervisor, Brune, time off the day of the party, <modsnip: quoted post was snipped> I think she likely just did not want Brune to be the other victim at the murder of VB. I think she wanted it to be someone that VB picked. JMO

Still, it was totally UNNECESSARY to set it up so that Jilian would be along and thus be murdered, because if TA had done nothing to change anything in regard to the supervising person, VB would have been the only victim! It was supposed to be Brune, who is a friend or at least an associate in some way to TA. So all they would've had to do is kill VB, leaving Brune unharmed. That's certainly bad enough, but better than killing them both, imo. I suppose that would mean they had to let one more person in on their awful plan though. That must have been enough reason. Seems like they'd have opted to bring in one more person (Brune) than to allow a totally innocent person to be gratuitously murdered, but I guess not.

IMO, that should say something good about this Brune person, because apparently, they knew Brune would never go along with this plan. Nice to know of at least one good person that these people know. Unfortunate for JK though, because that led to her being tricked into coming along and to her ultimate demise.

 

[Warwick7]

I think there were two things happening at the same time. On the one hand, Tifany wanted to murder Veronica before the April 17 court hearing to retain control over the children (for unknown reasons), and Tifany had to ramp up her misfit gang to commit murder prior to the hearing.

We have what Tifany knew, and what her gang knew, and I don't think they were the same. I see Tifany as the mastermind, and I think she manipulated her gang into believing that the children were in imminent danger <modsnip>. Personally, I don't think that is true, but I think her gang believed it was true.

If Tifany had chosen another day, where there was no birthday party, the suspects might have had the advantage of the car being undiscovered until the evening. That would have been a better plan for avoiding arrest. The gang took a greater risk of being discovered by planning the murder prior to the birthday party - when Veronica's extended family was expecting her at 11 a.m. <modsnip>

BBM
Tifany wanted to murder Veronica before the April 17 court hearing to retain control over the children

We have what Tifany knew, and what her gang knew, and I don't think they were the same. I see Tifany as the mastermind, and I think she manipulated her gang into believing that the children were in imminent danger <modsnip>. Personally, I don't think that is true, but I think her gang believed it was true.
---------------
Yes, 4-17-24 was a make or break for TA.
Thank God for the teen telling everything she knew. It must have been terrifying for her and her broth when CT and CT angrily showed up, toting a gun no less.
:0(

 

[Cool Cats]

While I don't disagree with the bulk of your speculation, I do feel that the reason TA gave the regular supervisor, Brune, time off the day of the party, <modsnip: quoted post was snipped> I think she likely just did not want Brune to be the other victim at the murder of VB. I think she wanted it to be someone that VB picked. JMO

The Affidavit is crystal clear. This is how the affidavit information looks to me, my take on it.

TA wanted to get rid of VB before she got more custody on April 17. TA was down to only 3 Saturdays left to do this.

How could she even do this with Brune right there? She couldn't, so she had to keep Brune from coming that Saturday. How did she do this?

She lied to Brune. She told Brune not to come for the next 2 weeks because she wanted to ask the kids how VB's chosen supervisors were treating them.

Not true, TA lied. What TA wanted was Brune out of the way so she could murder VB.

Why did she give Brune 2 weeks off instead of just that one Saturday off?

Because if the murder plans did not work out that Saturday March 30th she still could carry out the murder plans on the following Saturday, April 6th.

If she had to try to do the murder again on April 6th then Brune would already know not to come over that day.

The birthday party is irrelevant to the murder conspiracy.

 

[Bigditch]

Thinking out loud here, but I'm unclear as to how many of them knew that Jillian was riding shotgun? They could have believed it was a solo hit. Maybe one of them bailed when they discovered the plan included Jillian--could that have been the person responsible for disposing of the vehicle. (?)

 

[Cool Cats]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed> I think there were two things happening at the same time. On the one hand, Tifany wanted to murder Veronica before the April 17 court hearing to retain control over the children (for unknown reasons), and Tifany had to ramp up her misfit gang to commit murder prior to the hearing.

We have what Tifany knew, and what her gang knew, and I don't think they were the same. I see Tifany as the mastermind, and I think she manipulated her gang into believing that the children were in imminent danger <modsnip: speculation not based on known facts>. Personally, I don't think that is true, but I think her gang believed it was true.

If Tifany had chosen another day, where there was no birthday party, the suspects might have had the advantage of the car being undiscovered until the evening. That would have been a better plan for avoiding arrest. The gang took a greater risk of being discovered by planning the murder prior to the birthday party - when Veronica's extended family was expecting her at 11 a.m. <modsnip>

Thanks for clarifying. <modsnip: quoted post was snipped>

It cannot be overstated how much effort it takes to actually get people to - not just want to help you commit murder - but to actually go out and do it.

Thanks otto for explaining. I enjoy discussing with you.

​

 

[Warwick7]

The Affidavit is crystal clear. This is how the affidavit information looks to me, my take on it.

TA wanted to get rid of VB before she got more custody on April 17. TA was down to only 3 Saturdays left to do this.

How could she even do this with Brune right there? She couldn't, so she had to keep Brune from coming that Saturday. How did she do this?

She lied to Brune. She told Brune not to come for the next 2 weeks because she wanted to ask the kids how VB's chosen supervisors were treating them.

Not true, TA lied. What TA wanted was Brune out of the way so she could murder VB.

Why did she give Brune 2 weeks off instead of just that one Saturday off?

Because if the murder plans did not work out that Saturday March 30th she still could carry out the murder plans on the following Saturday, April 6th.

If she had to try to do the murder again on April 6th then Brune would already know not to come over that day.

The birthday party is irrelevant to the murder conspiracy.

Yes, because if the murder plan did not work out that Saturday March 30th she could stillcarry out the murder plans on the following Saturday, April 6th. And they already had a situation where drawing her out of her house first an anvil accident didn't work.

<modsnip: referenced post was removed>

 

[Warwick7]

Thinking out loud here, but I'm unclear as to how many of them knew that Jillian was riding shotgun? They could have believed it was a solo hit. Maybe one of them bailed when they discovered the plan included Jillian--could that have been the person responsible for disposing of the vehicle. (?)

Except the teen's mother, CT, said Jullian needed to be taken out, because she supported VB. At the very least the teen's mom knew.

 

[Cool Cats]

Yes, because if the murder plan did not work out that Saturday March 30th she could stillcarry out the murder plans on the following Saturday, April 6th. And they already had a situation where drawing her out of her house first an anvil accident didn't work.

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

@otto raises interesting points.

<modsnip: quoted post was removed/snipped>

Also otto points out that it is peculiar that TA would choose a birthday party Saturday to commit murder because what this does is alert the entire family when VB doesn't show up, which is exactly what happened and it caused LE to get on the case quicker.

<modsnip>

Why on earth do it on a birthday party Saturday? This makes no sense. Maybe it was the only Saturday all 5 could do it?

Must be a reason.

2 Cents

 

[legomonster]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed> I think there were two things happening at the same time. On the one hand, Tifany wanted to murder Veronica before the April 17 court hearing to retain control over the children (for unknown reasons), and Tifany had to ramp up her misfit gang to commit murder prior to the hearing.

We have what Tifany knew, and what her gang knew, and I don't think they were the same. I see Tifany as the mastermind, and I think she manipulated her gang into believing that the children were in imminent danger <modsnip: speculation not based on known facts>. Personally, I don't think that is true, but I think her gang believed it was true.

If Tifany had chosen another day, where there was no birthday party, the suspects might have had the advantage of the car being undiscovered until the evening. That would have been a better plan for avoiding arrest. The gang took a greater risk of being discovered by planning the murder prior to the birthday party - when Veronica's extended family was expecting her at 11 a.m. What was it about the birthday party that caused the gang to take a greater risk of being discovered?

Absolutely. I think even poor Veronica's family knew the risk to already start searching. It makes me sick. There were so many things that should have never gotten to this point imo, it was obvious it was getting way too hostile. Ofc, no one would have expected it with Jilian there too, but I honestly feel with all my heart that these two brave women and others were even more scared of what Tifany was capable of if she did lose in court and the accusations were baseless. It doesn't need to be addressed or discussed further than that but imo Tifany Adams was willing to take out anyone that disagreed with her. As her later actions proved, this would be a fatal mistake to ever trust Tifany Adams.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed> I think there were two things happening at the same time. On the one hand, Tifany wanted to murder Veronica before the April 17 court hearing to retain control over the children (for unknown reasons), and Tifany had to ramp up her misfit gang to commit murder prior to the hearing.

We have what Tifany knew, and what her gang knew, and I don't think they were the same. I see Tifany as the mastermind, and I think she manipulated her gang into believing that the children were in imminent danger <modsnip: speculation not based on known facts>. Personally, I don't think that is true, but I think her gang believed it was true.

If Tifany had chosen another day, where there was no birthday party, the suspects might have had the advantage of the car being undiscovered until the evening. That would have been a better plan for avoiding arrest. The gang took a greater risk of being discovered by planning the murder prior to the birthday party - when Veronica's extended family was expecting her at 11 a.m. What was it about the birthday party that caused the gang to take a greater risk of being discovered?

Good summary here. IMO it seems there are basically two elements affecting the timing. As you note it apparently had to happen prior to the upcoming court hearing April 17; as TA I believe had indication that things might not bode well for her custody desires - of her grandchildren. And I believe the other factor is that they needed VB to be traveling out there for some purpose, so the events could happen out in TA & crew ‘territory’. And what better way to ensure VB headed there than the promise of receiving the kids, and for a celebration. IMO such horrid manipulation and deceit by TA and the crew. MOO

 

[Warwick7]

Does someone have the link where Brian Entin is interviewing Veronica's attorney? I lost it.

 

[Cool Cats]

Except the teen's mother, CT, said Jullian needed to be taken out, because she supported VB. At the very least the teen's mom knew.

I never understood why JK "just supporting" VB would be a motive for murder.

I think TA lied to her friends about JK.

TA says that JK was not innocent because she supported VB and thus deserved to die. But I think this was a lie TA told her friends to get them to kill JK. Exaggerating JK's support that it was support that hurt the kids.

Why lie to get them to kill JK?

Because there was no possible way to get VB alone to kill her, they had tried to do this to no avail. So to kill VB it could only be done with a custody supervisor with her. TA did not want her chosen custody supervisor Brune to be killed so she asked VB to bring along her own custody supervisor.

TA was willing to kill JK just to be able to kill VB. The equivalent of killing an innocent witness at the scene of a crime.

2 Cents

 

[sunspun]

I'm still thinking about a point I raised in my last post. If TA had not called Brune to tell her she wouldn't be needed, then VB would have been alone in her car driving to the meeting place for the child exchange. Well, I guess I don't know that, because I don't know where Brune lives. But I would assume Brune lives closer to TA than to VB, and I wouldn't expect VB to pick up Brune on her way to get the kids, like she picked up JK. Brune would have been with TA and the kids waiting to meet VB that morning, if plans had not changed at TA's request. So VB would've been alone and an easy, vulnerable target for the murderers. And no need to kill JK who had done nothing to them (not that VB had either.)

I thought at first that TA told Brune she was not needed, because she didn't want to put her in harm's way when they killed VB. But now I realized that Brune wouldn't have been riding w/VB, like JK was, so she would've been safely away from the murder scene anyway. Then I thought TA must have thought she had to do it this way to avoid letting Brune in on their evil plan. But that makes no sense either, because if Brune wasn't at the scene, she wouldn't have to be told anything. She wouldn't know who the murderers were. Well, she probably would have, but that's true, whether she'd been told to stay home or not. Whether TA had told VB she had to bring someone with her to supervise the visit this time. Nothing would've been any different, as far as what Brune would have to be told. Brune likely would've suspected it was TA equally the same, whether she was expecting to supervise or not. Whether they were staying w/their original plan or
going to Plan B, as they did.

So I probably am not making this very clear, but I'm just saying, JK didn't have to die for any reason I can come up with. I previously thought she had to die (in the murderers' minds) just because she would have to be riding w/VB, and I guess they didn't want her to be able to identify them (collateral damage). But why did she have to be riding w/VB at that time? I know the supposed reason, because she was to be the visit supervisor since TA's usual person wasn't doing it this time. But why wasn't her usual person there this time? Because TA told her not to be!

WHY?
see what I'm saying?

 

[Baudi Moovan]

So I probably am not making this very clear, but I'm just saying, JK didn't have to die for any reason I can come up with. I previously thought she had to die (in the murderers' minds) just because she would have to be riding w/VB, and I guess they didn't want her to be able to identify them (collateral damage). But why did she have to be riding w/VB at that time? I know the supposed reason, because she was to be the visit supervisor since TA's usual person wasn't doing it this time. But why wasn't her usual person there this time? Because TA told her not to be!

WHY?
see what I'm saying?

I absolutely see what you're saying, and I came here to discuss this exact thing, so i was very happy to see your post.

If TA didn't tell Brune to take the couple of weeks off, then VB would have been driving alone. Why why why make VB find a sub to just kill her? Its wild.

I dont know a lot about supervised custody, so someone more knowledgeable might have to chime in. But when that sort of thing is commanded by the state, does the Supervisor usually show up for the exchange? Apparently they were headed to the exchange or right near it, right? So would Brune have been at the meeting spot where all of this occured?

 

[JosieMae]

Thinking out loud here, but I'm unclear as to how many of them knew that Jillian was riding shotgun? They could have believed it was a solo hit. Maybe one of them bailed when they discovered the plan included Jillian--could that have been the person responsible for disposing of the vehicle. (?)

I think they all knew there was going to be a second victim considering that TA spoke to VB by phone at the time when VB was picking Jillian up.

 

[sunspun]

Why lie to get them to kill JK?

Because there was no possible way to get VB alone to kill her, they had tried to do this to no avail. So to kill VB it could only be done with a custody supervisor with her. TA did not want her chosen custody supervisor Brune to be killed so she asked VB to bring along her own custody supervisor.

TA was willing to kill JK just to be able to kill VB. The equivalent of killing an innocent witness at the scene of a crime.

But there was a very simple way to get VB alone to kill her - and that would've been by just going w/the normal plan. Normally, a person TA knew and chose was the supervisor, so VB would've been driving alone to come to get the kids, and I would assume that supervisor would meet them there too. So that's it, right there, simple. Wouldn't have to change anything. But instead, TA tells her usual supervisor not to come and SPECIFICALLY tells VB to bring someone she knows instead. So now they think they have to kill two people, one of whom had nothing to do w/their family custody battle! But they would've gotten VB all by herself if TA had left things alone. I don't get that.

 

[JosieMae]

I never understood why JK "just supporting" VB would be a motive for murder.

I think TA lied to her friends about JK.

TA says that JK was not innocent because she supported VB and thus deserved to die. But I think this was a lie TA told her friends to get them to kill JK. Exaggerating JK's support that it was support that hurt the kids.

Why lie to get them to kill JK?

Because there was no possible way to get VB alone to kill her, they had tried to do this to no avail. So to kill VB it could only be done with a custody supervisor with her. TA did not want her chosen custody supervisor Brune to be killed so she asked VB to bring along her own custody supervisor.

TA was willing to kill JK just to be able to kill VB. The equivalent of killing an innocent witness at the scene of a crime.

2 Cents

RBBM. According to the AA, it was Cora who told her daughter that JK "wasn't innocent" and deserved to die.

 

[sunspun]

I absolutely see what you're saying, and I came here to discuss this exact thing, so i was very happy to see your post.

If TA didn't tell Brune to take the couple of weeks off, then VB would have been driving alone. Why why why make VB find a sub to just kill her? Its wild.

thank you! that's all i was trying to say! And it makes no sense to me. And it's very sad, whatever TA's reasons were.

 

[Warwick7]

I'm still thinking about a point I raised in my last post. If TA had not called Brune to tell her she wouldn't be needed, then VB would have been alone in her car driving to the meeting place for the child exchange. Well, I guess I don't know that, because I don't know where Brune lives. But I would assume Brune lives closer to TA than to VB, and I wouldn't expect VB to pick up Brune on her way to get the kids, like she picked up JK. Brune would have been with TA and the kids waiting to meet VB that morning, if plans had not changed at TA's request. So VB would've been alone and an easy, vulnerable target for the murderers. And no need to kill JK who had done nothing to them (not that VB had either.)

I thought at first that TA told Brune she was not needed, because she didn't want to put her in harm's way when they killed VB. But now I realized that Brune wouldn't have been riding w/VB, like JK was, so she would've been safely away from the murder scene anyway. Then I thought TA must have thought she had to do it this way to avoid letting Brune in on their evil plan. But that makes no sense either, because if Brune wasn't at the scene, she wouldn't have to be told anything. She wouldn't know who the murderers were. Well, she probably would have, but that's true, whether she'd been told to stay home or not. Whether TA had told VB she had to bring someone with her to supervise the visit this time. Nothing would've been any different, as far as what Brune would have to be told. Brune likely would've suspected it was TA equally the same, whether she was expecting to supervise or not. Whether they were staying w/their original plan or
going to Plan B, as they did.

So I probably am not making this very clear, but I'm just saying, JK didn't have to die for any reason I can come up with. I previously thought she had to die (in the murderers' minds) just because she would have to be riding w/VB, and I guess they didn't want her to be able to identify them (collateral damage). But why did she have to be riding w/VB at that time? I know the supposed reason, because she was to be the visit supervisor since TA's usual person wasn't doing it this time. But why wasn't her usual person there this time? Because TA told her not to be!

WHY?
see what I'm saying?

Ok, I'm a little confused.
Didn't CT (the mom) tell her daughter that JK wasn't innocent and needed to die?
Since that is the case the misfits maneuvered the situation so that JK was there on purpose. Well, that's my take on it.