Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

[SteveP]

Was "pools of blood" ever confirmed? We heard that very early on from "unnamed sources" and people picked up on it and ran with it, but was it confirmed? That's a heck of a lot of blood, which would lead me to believe knives were used. I can see some blood outside the car, if they were bludgeoned, but "pools" sounds like major arteries were sliced wide open.

I agree that "pools" paint a picture of major arteries being sliced open, but even minor head wounds can bleed profusely, and we know that VB's glasses were found on the road, so I fear she, and probably both, suffered a lot of severe head and facial wounds with a hammer, so pools of blood do not sound altogether unlikely, sadly. JMO

Your scalp can bleed profusely from even a minor cut. Many tiny arteries and veins serve the individual muscles and skin on your head. Some of these blood vessels lie deep within your skull, while other superficial arteries and veins are quite close to the surface of your skin.

"The scalp is very thick skin, and because of it's extensive blood supply even small lacerations to the head can lead to very large amounts of bleeding," says Troy Madsen, MD, an emergency physician at the University of Utah Hospital.

Why Do Head Injuries Bleed so Much?

A head injury is any trauma to your scalp, skull, or brain. Head injuries can range in severity from a mild bump on your head to a serious brain injury.

healthcare.utah.edu

 

[shefner]

I agree that "pools" paint a picture of major arteries being sliced open, but even minor head wounds can bleed profusely, and we know that VB's glasses were found on the road, so I fear she, and probably both, suffered a lot of severe head and facial wounds with a hammer, so pools of blood do not sound altogether unlikely, sadly. JMO

Your scalp can bleed profusely from even a minor cut. Many tiny arteries and veins serve the individual muscles and skin on your head. Some of these blood vessels lie deep within your skull, while other superficial arteries and veins are quite close to the surface of your skin.

"The scalp is very thick skin, and because of it's extensive blood supply even small lacerations to the head can lead to very large amounts of bleeding," says Troy Madsen, MD, an emergency physician at the University of Utah Hospital.

Why Do Head Injuries Bleed so Much?

A head injury is any trauma to your scalp, skull, or brain. Head injuries can range in severity from a mild bump on your head to a serious brain injury.

healthcare.utah.edu

Boxing enthusiasts can attest to heavy nosebleeds and brow cuts stopping fights. Traumatic lip and tongue injuries can also result in profuse bleeding.

 

[Warwick7]

I agree that "pools" paint a picture of major arteries being sliced open, but even minor head wounds can bleed profusely, and we know that VB's glasses were found on the road, so I fear she, and probably both, suffered a lot of severe head and facial wounds with a hammer, so pools of blood do not sound altogether unlikely, sadly. JMO

Your scalp can bleed profusely from even a minor cut. Many tiny arteries and veins serve the individual muscles and skin on your head. Some of these blood vessels lie deep within your skull, while other superficial arteries and veins are quite close to the surface of your skin.

"The scalp is very thick skin, and because of it's extensive blood supply even small lacerations to the head can lead to very large amounts of bleeding," says Troy Madsen, MD, an emergency physician at the University of Utah Hospital.

Why Do Head Injuries Bleed so Much?

A head injury is any trauma to your scalp, skull, or brain. Head injuries can range in severity from a mild bump on your head to a serious brain injury.

healthcare.utah.edu

I hate pressing like on your post. But, I fear death occurred because of face and head devastation due to hammers.

 

[Rixey]

All I’ve read is this ^^^^ above—that there was A birthday party, but I’ve not seen definitively or confirmed by family or LE that the party was for one of VB’s children.

If there is confirmation, I’d love to see it.

Early on, a lady who spoke to VB about that Saturday visit was interviewed and said VB was excited for the birthday party, and the lady either said or intimated it was a party for one of VB’s children. I don’t have the link handy, sorry.

However, to my knowledge, her account was never verified by family or LE, and yet it is now stated as fact.

IMO.

Help? Maybe @Seattle1 knows more?

Although, it really doesn’t matter to me in the arc of this tragedy, other than I like facts to be factual.

This is not official, but was written by the AP which has stricter rules about sources/anonymous sources that many in the media.

2 missing Kansas women confirmed dead, kids safe; 4 charged with kidnapping and murder

Veronica Butler, 27; and Jilian Kelley, 39, were driving through the Oklahoma panhandle to pick up Butler's children for a March 30 birthday party in Kansas but never showed up.

abc7ny.com

"Authorities say 27-year-old Veronica Butler and 39-year-old Jilian Kelley, of Hugoton, Kansas, were driving through the Oklahoma panhandle to pick up Butler's children for a March 30 birthday party in Kansas. They never showed up, and their vehicle was found later that day, abandoned on a rural highway near the Oklahoma-Kansas state line, with evidence of foul play."

Under the circumstances, and given the timing, and comments made by friends & family, as well as who located the vehicle, it is very highly probable that it was a party for one of VB's children. I don't think LE ever spelled it out because, as you say, it is a detail that didn't matter much in the scheme of things. It will likely be stated on the record during testimony if this goes to trial.

Here are the AP rules for anyone interested

Telling the Story | The Associated Press

www.ap.org

 

[MyBelle]

All I’ve read is this ^^^^ above—that there was A birthday party, but I’ve not seen definitively or confirmed by family or LE that the party was for one of VB’s children.

If there is confirmation, I’d love to see it.

Early on, a lady who spoke to VB about that Saturday visit was interviewed and said VB was excited for the birthday party, and the lady either said or intimated it was a party for one of VB’s children. I don’t have the link handy, sorry.

However, to my knowledge, her account was never verified by family or LE, and yet it is now stated as fact.

IMO.

Help? Maybe @Seattle1 knows more?

Although, it really doesn’t matter to me in the arc of this tragedy, other than I like facts to be factual.

The AA that was linked on the post is confirmation from LE as a fact. I believe VB's family confirmed it to LE.

JMO

 

[Chimera]

@Rixey : If true that it was one of VB's kids' birthdays. -- What a "nice" time to pick for the murders.
Another layer of pain for the surviving children of Veronica TA caused, to have to remember that day, and they will, too.
Also so difficult for Jillians' family !
Nauseating.
Smh.
Omo.

 

[Artis]

I also think that TA and the other misfits saw JK as a representative of the government (CPS) and that made it easier for them to dehumanize and demonize her in their minds. It was the government/CPS that was going to take the children away and place them in an unsafe envirnment in their minds. That made what they planned to do a mission, and not just an accidental bystander murder. JMO.

CPS has never been mentioned in any of this. The court ordered supervised visitation and each party was allowed choose independent supervisors. Tifany had hers; Brune. Veronica had a court approved list of four. Jilian lived in Kansas and was about to move to Nebraska.

 

[PommyMommy]

Obituary for #VeronicaButler includes a description of her love for her two children who she was fighting so hard to regain custody of, and who she was planning to pick up the day her life was stolen. Her celebration of life will be held this coming Friday May 3rd.

“Cole and Kendyl were her world from the day they were born, she thoroughly enjoyed her time being their momma. That was her greatest and most treasured title. Time spent with them consisted of snuggles, learning mom’s touch of cooking, reading books to them, playing many games outdoors including tag, bubbles and water balloon fights. Her love for them ran deep and that will be forever treasured.”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1784291595585503442

 

[Walela]

While I don't disagree with the bulk of your speculation, I do feel that the reason TA gave the regular supervisor, Brune, time off the day of the party, <modsnip: quoted post was snipped> I think she likely just did not want Brune to be the other victim at the murder of VB. I think she wanted it to be someone that VB picked. JMO

My take on the dismissal of Brune is that TA could not have been in 2 places at once. Under normal circumstances Brune likely would have been at the pick up location waiting with TA but as TA had planned to be at the ambush spot that day Brune would have been waiting alone and would have been in a very confused state when neither party showed up and quite possibly would have alerted LE to that fact. This is all my own thoughts as I do not know where Brune would have been coming from or if VB would have normally picked her up as she did Jillian and I also don't know where these visitations usually took place. moo

 

[charmingbetsy]

I also think that TA and the other misfits saw JK as a representative of the government (CPS) and that made it easier for them to dehumanize and demonize her in their minds. It was the government/CPS that was going to take the children away and place them in an unsafe envirnment in their minds. That made what they planned to do a mission, and not just an accidental bystander murder. JMO.

My thoughts exactly. That citizenship repudiation filed by Grice specifically mentions CPS, judges, and legal involvement with children. And along with CW's statements in the probable cause affidavit that Cora said JK had to die because she was on VB's side (or something to that effect), I really believe they viewed JK as the "enemy" as well.

 

[Warwick7]

My take on the dismissal of Brune is that TA could not have been in 2 places at once. Under normal circumstances Brune likely would have been at the pick up location waiting with TA but as TA had planned to be at the ambush spot that day Brune would have been waiting alone and would have been in a very confused state when neither party showed up and quite possibly would have alerted LE to that fact. This is all my own thoughts as I do not know where Brune would have been coming from or if VB would have normally picked her up as she did Jillian and I also don't know where these visitations usually took place. moo

That is good thinking!! She couldn't be at 2 places at one time!

 

[Warwick7]

I agree that "pools" paint a picture of major arteries being sliced open, but even minor head wounds can bleed profusely, and we know that VB's glasses were found on the road, so I fear she, and probably both, suffered a lot of severe head and facial wounds with a hammer, so pools of blood do not sound altogether unlikely, sadly. JMO

Your scalp can bleed profusely from even a minor cut. Many tiny arteries and veins serve the individual muscles and skin on your head. Some of these blood vessels lie deep within your skull, while other superficial arteries and veins are quite close to the surface of your skin.

"The scalp is very thick skin, and because of it's extensive blood supply even small lacerations to the head can lead to very large amounts of bleeding," says Troy Madsen, MD, an emergency physician at the University of Utah Hospital.

Why Do Head Injuries Bleed so Much?

A head injury is any trauma to your scalp, skull, or brain. Head injuries can range in severity from a mild bump on your head to a serious brain injury.

healthcare.utah.edu

BBM
And if we take into account the document also astates that Adams and Cullum have a history of violent interactions including death threats, intimidation, abide by their own philosophy and have no regard for the sanctity of human life. So by there actions and interactions I would not doubt they would use hammers.

And if I have this right, there were rumors that the couple was feared in the community for their mean streak and perceived dangerousness. That's in the link below.

Kansas moms suspects ‘knew the path’ judge took to work: Records

The four suspects jailed in the killings of two Kansas mothers are being kept apart from one another at the Texas County jail in Oklahoma.

www.newsnationnow.com

 

[Warwick7]

Obituary for #VeronicaButler includes a description of her love for her two children who she was fighting so hard to regain custody of, and who she was planning to pick up the day her life was stolen. Her celebration of life will be held this coming Friday May 3rd.

“Cole and Kendyl were her world from the day they were born, she thoroughly enjoyed her time being their momma. That was her greatest and most treasured title. Time spent with them consisted of snuggles, learning mom’s touch of cooking, reading books to them, playing many games outdoors including tag, bubbles and water balloon fights. Her love for them ran deep and that will be forever treasured.”

https://twitter.com/x/status/1784291595585503442

B e a u tiful!!

 

[Seattle1]

This is exactly what I believed, that VB had to have a court-authorized supervisor with her on the way to the handoff, through the visit and then the return. Therefore, all that mattered to TA was that the one supervisor  she liked (Brune) would not have to be killed. Someone would have to accompany VB. Whoever it was, that person was going to be killed. Collateral damage to a heinous degree, IMO.

To be clear, a Supervision Court Order applies to the children being present, and not the parent getting to the meet-up.

In this case, March 30 was the first time somebody other than CB would be supervising the visit between Mother and children and I think VB and JK traveled together from Kansas to OK most likely for convenience and logistics.

Also, since VB previously traveled alone every Saturday to Four Corners to meet up with her children, before the AA released, I envisioned where VB could have been distracted in conversation with JK and not notice if she was being followed and about to be ambushed.

However, if true that the defendants set up a detour causing the victims to turn off Hwy 95 to Road L, what a vicious, cowardly move to take them off the main road and avoid detection or risk any traveling motorists as witnesses to the event. JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

My take on the dismissal of Brune is that TA could not have been in 2 places at once. Under normal circumstances Brune likely would have been at the pick up location waiting with TA but as TA had planned to be at the ambush spot that day Brune would have been waiting alone and would have been in a very confused state when neither party showed up and quite possibly would have alerted LE to that fact. This is all my own thoughts as I do not know where Brune would have been coming from or if VB would have normally picked her up as she did Jillian and I also don't know where these visitations usually took place. moo

Yes! TA had no intention of appearing with the children at the 10am meetup spot that day - her lie about VB cancelling - so she also had to ensure Brune stayed away or she might’ve raised an alarm when nobody showed up.

 

[Scatcat]

There are several people who should still be arrested even if it’s just a misdemeanor. Failure to Report is a punishable offense in many states. Send these enablers to prison for a year (maximum in some states) and fine them the maximum.

Some of these enablers very likely participated in the conversations exhibiting the intent to murder Veronica even though they weren’t physically at the crime scene. This might also be punishable as it supported their heinous behavior.

Agreed

 

[CuriousCricket]

To be clear, a Supervision Court Order applies to the children being present, and not the parent getting to the meet-up.

In this case, March 30 was the first time somebody other than CB would be supervising the visit between Mother and children and I think VB and JK traveled together from Kansas to OK most likely for convenience and logistics.

Also, since VB previously traveled alone every Saturday to Four Corners to meet up with her children, before the AA released, I envisioned where VB could have been distracted in conversation with JK and not notice if she was being followed and about to be ambushed.

However, if true that the defendants set up a detour causing the victims to turn off Hwy 95 to Road L, what a vicious, cowardly move to take them off the main road and avoid detection or risk any traveling motorists as witnesses to the event. JMO

vicious and cowardly and a lot of other horrid words to pit 5 people -- 3 tough, outdoorsy but gutless males -- against 2 women. They should hang their heads in shame until the government puts them out of their misery.

 

[Howl]

Never mind! Point was addressed elsewhere.

 

[Seattle1]

All I’ve read is this ^^^^ above—that there was A birthday party, but I’ve not seen definitively or confirmed by family or LE that the party was for one of VB’s children.

If there is confirmation, I’d love to see it.

Early on, a lady who spoke to VB about that Saturday visit was interviewed and said VB was excited for the birthday party, and the lady either said or intimated it was a party for one of VB’s children. I don’t have the link handy, sorry.

However, to my knowledge, her account was never verified by family or LE, and yet it is now stated as fact.

IMO.

Help? Maybe @Seattle1 knows more?

Although, it really doesn’t matter to me in the arc of this tragedy, other than I like facts to be factual.

Veronica Butler, 27, went missing alongside Jilian Kelley on March 30 as the two were on their way to celebrate Butler's six-year-old daughter's birthday. MSM- DM

Given the AA by authorities makes no effort to define whether "a" birthday party was to celebrate the victims daughter, I trust we should do the same for privacy of a minor.

However, for the purpose of (factual) speculation only, the Appellate Brief in Chief by WR previously linked in prior threads does provide in the Summary of Record that a child was born April 2, 2018 (identity intentionally omitted by OP for privacy).

Again, although DM reported the party was for the victims daughter, whether or not "a" party on Saturday, March 30, 2024 was coincidence-- should probably remain as such here. MOO

Found Deceased - OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #4 *Arrests*

Maybe or maybe CW was right about Grice being placed at the scene of the murders, just like she was right about everything else. Your post just reminded me that Tifany picked up the kiddos from fellow Misfit's home, the Cooks, around noon. That would be right after she murdered two women around...

www.websleuths.com

 

[JulesinOz]

I agree that "pools" paint a picture of major arteries being sliced open, but even minor head wounds can bleed profusely, and we know that VB's glasses were found on the road, so I fear she, and probably both, suffered a lot of severe head and facial wounds with a hammer, so pools of blood do not sound altogether unlikely, sadly. JMO

Your scalp can bleed profusely from even a minor cut. Many tiny arteries and veins serve the individual muscles and skin on your head. Some of these blood vessels lie deep within your skull, while other superficial arteries and veins are quite close to the surface of your skin.

"The scalp is very thick skin, and because of it's extensive blood supply even small lacerations to the head can lead to very large amounts of bleeding," says Troy Madsen, MD, an emergency physician at the University of Utah Hospital.

Why Do Head Injuries Bleed so Much?

A head injury is any trauma to your scalp, skull, or brain. Head injuries can range in severity from a mild bump on your head to a serious brain injury.

healthcare.utah.edu

Unrelated to the pools of blood, but related to the cause of death speculation--does anyone know if it's possible that death can be caused by a stun gun? I've been wondering about this ever since it was stated that VB and JK weren't shot.