Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

[Cool Cats]

Unrelated to the pools of blood, but related to the cause of death speculation--does anyone know if it's possible that death can be caused by a stun gun? I've been wondering about this ever since it was stated that VB and JK weren't shot.

There was blood at the scene and I have never heard of a stun gun causing bleeding. This is a very unusual murder because the easiest way to kill people is to shoot them but to bludgeon or stab people to death is on a whole nother level.

I suspect they didn't want to leave bullets behind in the bodies or have their history of buying guns uncovered, etc....

It really becomes very violent and personal to kill the way they did, it takes a certain kind of depravity and inhuman mind set.

1. lacking human qualities of compassion and mercy, cruel and barbaric, not human in nature or character cruel harsh inhumane brutal callous sadistic severe

2 Cents

 

[MyBelle]

Unrelated to the pools of blood, but related to the cause of death speculation--does anyone know if it's possible that death can be caused by a stun gun? I've been wondering about this ever since it was stated that VB and JK weren't shot.

Yes, stun guns can cause death. As for the bleeding, I have no idea if that would have resulted.

JMO

An estimated 500 people have died from police use of tasers nationwide between 2010-2021

The death of Darryl Williams by Raleigh police on Tuesday was not the first time a person has died from a taser in North Carolina or in Raleigh.

abc11.com

 

[Seattle1]

Dr. William Morronne speaks to "pools of blood" and forensics with exhibit beginning around 4:00 minute mark:

Stabbing at Femoral and Carotid arteries would produce pools of blood.

 

[JulesinOz]

There was blood at the scene and I have never heard of a stun gun causing bleeding. This is a very unusual murder because the easiest way to kill people is to shoot them but to bludgeon or stab people to death is on a whole nother level.

I suspect they didn't want to leave bullets behind in the bodies or have their history of buying guns uncovered, etc....

It really becomes very violent and personal to kill the way they did, it takes a certain kind of depravity and inhuman mind set.

1. lacking human qualities of compassion and mercy, cruel and barbaric, not human in nature or character cruel harsh inhumane brutal callous sadistic severe

2 Cents

I wasn't thinking the stun gun caused the bleeding--but just the death. I guess I assumed the pools of blood was unconfirmed. If it's accurate-then I guess it would explain the broken hammer. Geez--just typing that makes me cringe at the thought.

 

[Cool Cats]

I wasn't thinking the stun gun caused the bleeding--but just the death. I guess I assumed the pools of blood was unconfirmed. If it's accurate-then I guess it would explain the broken hammer. Geez--just typing that makes me cringe at the thought.

What is confirmed is:

Evidence of severe injury in and around car.

Blood on road and on side of road.

Veronica's glasses on road.

A broken hammer on road.

 

[MyBelle]

I wasn't thinking the stun gun caused the bleeding--but just the death. I guess I assumed the pools of blood was unconfirmed. If it's accurate-then I guess it would explain the broken hammer. Geez--just typing that makes me cringe at the thought.

I think the hammer was used to break the car windows so that the women could be tazed. The blood may have been from broken glass. I think the plan was to taz them and bury them alive.

JMO

 

[unimog]

I think the hammer was used to break the car windows so that the women could be tazed. The blood may have been from broken glass. I think the plan was to taz them and bury them alive.

JMO

It is my opinion that this is a likely scenario. Without a hammer or similar tool to get in the car along with the element of surprise they could have chased them around roads and fields until the Kia ran out of gas or they could surround them somewhere. And they would then still need the hammer.

But I think the blood came as a result of hands-on violence of some kind. I wish the ME would get back with a COD. Then we would all be horrified at what travesty actually befell them and not all of the possibilities.

 

[JulesinOz]

I think the hammer was used to break the car windows so that the women could be tazed. The blood may have been from broken glass. I think the plan was to taz them and bury them alive.

JMO

I hope with everything in me you're wrong. It's shattering--the whole situation is just so outrageous and unnecessary. Heartbreaking

 

[Warwick7]

I think the hammer was used to break the car windows so that the women could be tazed. The blood may have been from broken glass. I think the plan was to taz them and bury them alive.

JMO

Could very well be. That could be where things didn't go according to plan. Especially since Brian Entin said there was blood inside the car let alone the puddles outside.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

I think the hammer was used to break the car windows so that the women could be tazed. The blood may have been from broken glass. I think the plan was to taz them and bury them alive.

JMO

Interesting theory and could also be on point. Once analysis of DNA and blood residue from the scene and vehicle is complete that will probably help elucidate what happened.

Wish we also knew whether any broken windows on the car were done from the outside or inside. MOO

 

[Bigditch]

Is Dr. William Morronne the pathologist? If not, grain of salt.

 

[Artis]

Interesting theory and could also be on point. Once analysis of DNA and blood residue from the scene and vehicle is complete that will probably help elucidate what happened.

Wish we also knew whether any broken windows on the car were done from the outside or inside. MOO

Poor women were terrorized by those goons before dying. Whatever jury they get is going to hate their guts.

 

[MyBelle]

I hope with everything in me you're wrong. It's shattering--the whole situation is just so outrageous and unnecessary. Heartbreaking

This is one of the most diabolical crimes I've ever followed. It is very heartbreaking. ITA

JMO

 

[Knox]

Poor women were terrorized by those goons before dying. Whatever jury they get is going to hate their guts.

I hate to think of what their last moments were like, hard to believe the name of Jesus was ever on their lips.

 

[vls12345]

But there was a very simple way to get VB alone to kill her - and that would've been by just going w/the normal plan. Normally, a person TA knew and chose was the supervisor, so VB would've been driving alone to come to get the kids, and I would assume that supervisor would meet them there too. So that's it, right there, simple. Wouldn't have to change anything. But instead, TA tells her usual supervisor not to come and SPECIFICALLY tells VB to bring someone she knows instead. So now they think they have to kill two people, one of whom had nothing to do w/their family custody battle! But they would've gotten VB all by herself if TA had left things alone. I don't get that.

I am behind on the thread. So this may have been already mentioned.

Didn't Veronica have to pay for the supervisor, regardless of whether the supervisor had been chosen by TA or VB? If so, perhaps Brune had to contact VB to say she wasn't available for those weeks and to find a replacement. Imo.

On top of it, Veronica had less money for a lengthy court battle with TA based on discussions here regarding TA's wealth and/or land owning. I could see TA being petty enough to enjoy that Veronica was going to have to pay Jillian, knowing it was just one more piece of the financial onus placed on Veronica. TA probably thought it was funny to have Veronica pay Jillian, knowing neither were going to survive the ambush. (Vs. having Brune stay away and Veronica unknowingly showing up alone without a supervisor.)

Hope my explanation makes sense.

Imo and MOO.

 

[al66pine]

Stun Guns Causing Deaths?

Yes, stun guns can cause death. As for the bleeding, I have no idea if that would have resulted. JMO

An estimated 500 people have died from police use of tasers nationwide between 2010-2021

The death of Darryl Williams by Raleigh police on Tuesday was not the first time a person has died from a taser in North Carolina or in Raleigh.

abc11.com

@MyBelle Sorry, I'm wondering about accuracy of ^ post.

The Jan. 2021 article's HEADLINE clearly refers to TASER brand weapons, not to stun guns:
"An estimated 500 people have died from police use of tasers nationwide between 2010-2021." In article itself, I see nothing about deaths caused by "stun guns."

While stun guns and TASERs (a registered brand name) are both electroshock weapons, they operate differently and have different features.
The Affidavits of ProbCause for Arrest Warrants in this thread refer to TA's purchase of "stun guns" not TASERs.

If you have (or if anyone has?) links w information about stun guns causing deaths of humans, I'd be interested in reading.
I imagine that could happen and may have happened; but ^ article does not mention any.

_______________________________________
"Electroshock Weapons" aka Conducted Energy Weapons
“An electroshock weapon is an incapacitating weapon. It delivers an electric shock aimed at temporarily disrupting muscle functions and/or inflicting pain without usually causing significant injury… Many types of these devices exist."
^ from wiki link below

Stun gun user must be ~ ARM’S LENGTH or closer to target, that is, close enough for weapon itself to make DIRECT CONTACT w targeted person. Otherwise, no “stun” IIUC.
If target slips away from stun gun contact, stun gunner loses control.

TASER = a BRAND of electroshock weapon, NOT a "stun gun."
TASER user fires BARBED projectiles w wires connecting w eapon & the target (if user has decent AIM) w the metal barbs penetrating target’s skin to administer the shock.
W non-LE model/civilian TASER’s RANGE of ~ 15 feet or 4.5 metres, so TASER user can fire from FURTHER away from targeted person than w stun gun.
The TASER weapon itself does not need to make direct contact w person like w stun gun.
Can immobilize target for up to 30 seconds.
If thick clothing prevents barbs from penetrating/touching target’s skin, then no pain.

More from wiki on Electroshock weapon
"Stun guns… administer an electric shock by direct contact, whereas Tasers FIRE PROJECTILES that administer the shock through thin flexible WIRES.”
“Though the two terms are often used interchangeably, stun guns are actually direct contact weapons that work mainly through pain compliance by affecting the sensory nervous system.[1] It can also cause some muscular disruption, but that generally requires 3 to 5 SEC’s. of DIRECT CONTACT.
“TASER fires two small barbed DARTS intended to PUNCTURE the SKIN and remain ATTACHED to the target until removed by the user of the TASER device…. range extends from 4.5 m (15 ft) for non-Law Enforcement Taser.” < w my CAPS
^ Taser - Wikipedia
Up to 35 ft range for LE models, Collections

 

[MissTilly]

found this little gem in the Grice manifesto:

“I hereby pledge my allegiance only to my God. I shall live by the commandment of “Love thy neighbour” and shall “Do no harm” in my private pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.”
Grice page 34, section American State Nationals, paragraph 1

guess he changed his mind, or inserted the caveat of “unless my neighbour asks me to” or if decided that VB and JK weren’t his kind of “neighbours”.

 

[MyBelle]

I am behind on the thread. So this may have been already mentioned.

Didn't Veronica have to pay for the supervisor, regardless of whether the supervisor had been chosen by TA or VB? If so, perhaps Brune had to contact VB to say she wasn't available for those weeks and to find a replacement. Imo.

On top of it, Veronica had less money for a lengthy court battle with TA based on discussions here regarding TA's wealth and/or land owning. I could see TA being petty enough to enjoy that Veronica was going to have to pay Jillian, knowing it was just one more piece of the financial onus placed on Veronica. TA probably thought it was funny to have Veronica pay Jillian, knowing neither were going to survive the ambush. (Vs. Not having Brune stay away and Veronica unknowingly showing up alone without a supervisor.)

Hope my explanation makes sense.

Imo and MOO.

BBM. iirc, TA paid for supervisor she selected, and VB paid for the supervisor she selected.

JMO

 

[al66pine]

Is Dr. William Morronne the pathologist? If not, grain of salt.

@Bigditch Agreed. I'm keeping the salt shaker handy, as Dr. Moreone commented about forensic items gen'ly, not from his autopsy findings on these two victims. Well, because AFAIK, he did not conduct any exam of them or see autopsy reports.

A post by @Seattle1 links to a Nancy Grace vid clip, featuring Dr. Morrone and identifying him as a "medical examiner, toxicologist, & pathologist."

Apparently he's in Midland County, Michigan, as announcement appointing him as Medical Examiner there was made last month.*

From quick online searches, I see nothing which connects him in an official capacity to this case; nor did I run across anything indicating he is a board certified pathologist, but could have missed it.

His LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-morrone-a633b919

_______________________________
* https://www.ourmidland.com/news/article/midland-county-appoints-morrone-new-medical-19252919.php

Post by @Seattle1 (TYVM )

Found Deceased - OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

Unrelated to the pools of blood, but related to the cause of death speculation--does anyone know if it's possible that death can be caused by a stun gun? I've been wondering about this ever since it was stated that VB and JK weren't shot. There was blood at the scene and I have never heard of...

www.websleuths.com

 

[MyBelle]

Stun Guns Causing Deaths?

@MyBelle Sorry, I'm wondering about accuracy of ^ post.

The Jan. 2021 article's HEADLINE clearly refers to TASER brand weapons, not to stun guns:
"An estimated 500 people have died from police use of tasers nationwide between 2010-2021." In article itself, I see nothing about deaths caused by "stun guns."

While stun guns and TASERs (a registered brand name) are both electroshock weapons, they operate differently and have different features.
The Affidavits of ProbCause for Arrest Warrants in this thread refer to TA's purchase of "stun guns" not TASERs.

If you have (or if anyone has?) links w information about stun guns causing deaths of humans, I'd be interested in reading.
I imagine that could happen and may have happened; but ^ article does not mention any.

_______________________________________
"Electroshock Weapons" aka Conducted Energy Weapons
“An electroshock weapon is an incapacitating weapon. It delivers an electric shock aimed at temporarily disrupting muscle functions and/or inflicting pain without usually causing significant injury… Many types of these devices exist."
^ from wiki link below

Stun gun user must be ~ ARM’S LENGTH or closer to target, that is, close enough for weapon itself to make DIRECT CONTACT w targeted person. Otherwise, no “stun” IIUC.
If target slips away from stun gun contact, stun gunner loses control.

TASER = a BRAND of electroshock weapon, NOT a "stun gun."
TASER user fires BARBED projectiles w wires connecting w eapon & the target (if user has decent AIM) w the metal barbs penetrating target’s skin to administer the shock.
W non-LE model/civilian TASER’s RANGE of ~ 15 feet or 4.5 metres, so TASER user can fire from FURTHER away from targeted person than w stun gun.
The TASER weapon itself does not need to make direct contact w person like w stun gun.
Can immobilize target for up to 30 seconds.
If thick clothing prevents barbs from penetrating/touching target’s skin, then no pain.

More from wiki on Electroshock weapon
"Stun guns… administer an electric shock by direct contact, whereas Tasers FIRE PROJECTILES that administer the shock through thin flexible WIRES.”
“Though the two terms are often used interchangeably, stun guns are actually direct contact weapons that work mainly through pain compliance by affecting the sensory nervous system.[1] It can also cause some muscular disruption, but that generally requires 3 to 5 SEC’s. of DIRECT CONTACT.
“TASER fires two small barbed DARTS intended to PUNCTURE the SKIN and remain ATTACHED to the target until removed by the user of the TASER device…. range extends from 4.5 m (15 ft) for non-Law Enforcement Taser.” < w my CAPS
^ Taser - Wikipedia
Up to 35 ft range for LE models, Collections

I wasn't aware there is a difference between a taser and a stun gun. I also didn't realize a Taser is a brand name but the news articles I've read say TA purchased tasers.
JMO

Document: Grandmother admits to role in murder of 2 women found dead in Texas County

A grandmother admitted to her role in the murder of two women found dead in Texas County, Oklahoma.According to the motion to hold Tifany Adams without bail, af

abc7amarillo.com

When that failed, Adams bought burner phones and tasers and plotted to kidnap and kill the victims.