Found Deceased OK, Veronica Butler 27 & Jilian Kelley 39, Vehicle Abandoned, Texas County, 30 Mar 2024 #5 *Arrests*

[Howl]

We know they didn't trust the government to take care of the two children, and their reasoning (if I have it right) was that the children were at risk of abuse if they went with their mother.

They're going to say (MOO) Yes, we killed the women, but we did it to save the children.

I think they'll take the position that they felt this was a moral crisis, and they had to act.

Yes, this 100%. I'd go so far as to say that TA may consider herself a martyr, exchanging a life of freedom to save the grandkids from...what exactly?

Although God's Misfits may be a tiny inner circle of a few like-minded people, their beliefs could easily have led them (MOO, speculation) to SovCit-adjacent on-line QAnon conspiracy theories about child abduction, adrenochrome harvesting, groomers, and what not that are common in certain corners of the interwebs. I can't think of anything else that would lead people to commit/participate in this horrific murder.

I'm very curious about TA's comment to LE that she was "responsible" for the deaths of VB and JK. It's a confession or is it? That's an odd phrase that seems to be veering towards manslaughter and away from capital murder. Like, "I said some things that may have been misconstrued by my associates, who, can you believe it, murdered two women!" It will be interesting to see what her lawyer(s) come up with and how it all plays out over time.

 

[Artis]

Just thinking more about Paul Grice. He is 31 yrs old. The other defendants are old enough to be his parents. Why was he involved with them?

I think Cora is in her 40s. I've had friends of all ages in my life so don't find that weird.

 

[Walela]

RSBM

That's not beyond the realm of possibility. And, maybe they don't even have to be declared sovereign citizens to be anti-government enough to cause a mistrial.

We've had some confessions now, so I'm guessing the defense will work on the idea that the killers believed it had to be done.

We know they didn't trust the government to take care of the two children, and their reasoning (if I have it right) was that the children were at risk of abuse if they went with their mother.

They're going to say (MOO) Yes, we killed the women, but we did it to save the children.

I think they'll take the position that they felt this was a moral crisis, and they had to act. Normal jurors won't buy that, but the anti-government types might. And it's such a sparsly populated rural area that even if they move the trial a couple of counties away, they could run into the same mindset.

All MOO...

I for one am not believing they didn't trust the government to take care of the children. I am of the opinion that they believed (and rightly so) the government was not going to give TA what she wanted. If TA or any of the others were truly concerned about the allegations of abuse and were convinced of their validity, they would have focused their murderous sights on the alleged abuser. This, to me, is simply a case of TA wanted the children period. She didn't want anyone to have them including her son. As for the SC-anti-government claims and the belief that society/government's laws don't apply to them they obviously don't believe God's laws apply either. By my count, at least 4 of the 10 commandments were broken and possibly a fifth depending on how you look at it. They all claim to believe in God as the only authority they respect and answer to but those are just words they hide behind and speak so as to convince and confuse and thereby gain approval from others. moo

 

[Artis]

Denouncing citizenship doesn't mean it, apparently. It takes $2,350 plus turning in a passport and appearing in person. So, Paul Grice, despite his statement, is still a citizen. Guess that gets him a free attorney.

True enough though he doesn't need to be a citizen (even though he is) to get that.

 

[Artis]

I have nothing to base it on, other than maybe wishful thinking, but I really feel like the bulk of the God's Misfits are sitting in jail right now. I think there may be one or two other families that may be key players in the group, but my guess is they are back-pedaling as quickly as they can, to disassociate themselves from the killers. There may be several others that share many of their anti-government beliefs, but I expect they will go crawl back under their rocks until the publicity of all this blows over, which may only be after all of the trials have taken place. JMO

I agree. At most, I'd bet there fewer than a dozen, tops. In a country with God knows how many murders every year, I'd say the Misfits group and their beliefs are the least of our problems. Violent criminals - many of whom are being let go in the name of "criminal justice reform" (not in Oklahoma, I'm pretty sure) - are.

 

[Cool Cats]

I know a few types like this. Not as extreme, but I can tell you they will never change their minds. You can't reason, can't show them information. If a juror believes the defendants were saving the children, backs what they felt was necessary, there's little hope.

That doesn't make sense. Either they committed murder or not. The reason they did it doesn't matter to the law unless it was self defense.

Were Veronica and Jilian trying to kill the 5 defendants? No. Were V and J trying to hurt the children? No.

Were the children even there? No.

These 2 ladies were ambushed and apparently beatened, bludgeoned to death, bleeding in the road.

 

[Cryptic]

Can area residents convict the defendants especially if residents have anti-government leanings?

I am very confident in a "yes" answer given who the victims are.

Had the headlines been:

Waco II / Ruby Ridge II- Right wing sovereign survivalist types have shoot out with Federal Agents acting either on a badly botched surveillance mission, a badly conceived search warrant, or on illegal "shoot on sight" orders, the willingness to convict could be very different.

But with these victims, and especially the circumstances of their deaths, the Misfits are not going to be pulling on any right wing sympathy heart strings.

In contrast, my bet is that the Misfits wish they could teleport themselves and their cases to San Francisco. Effectively no death penalty in California and plenty of prosecutors and jurors who are not willing to consider one.

 

[Artis]

I for one am not believing they didn't trust the government to take care of the children. I am of the opinion that they believed (and rightly so) the government was not going to give TA what she wanted. If TA or any of the others were truly concerned about the allegations of abuse and were convinced of their validity, they would have focused their murderous sights on the alleged abuser. This, to me, is simply a case of TA wanted the children period. She didn't want anyone to have them including her son. As for the SC-anti-government claims and the belief that society/government's laws don't apply to them they obviously don't believe God's laws apply either. By my count, at least 4 of the 10 commandments were broken and possibly a fifth depending on how you look at it. They all claim to believe in God as the only authority they respect and answer to but those are just words they hide behind and speak so as to convince and confuse and thereby gain approval from others. moo

BBM - ^^^THAT

She has a strong personality and a reputation of being a bully and her reprehensible gang of fellow violent criminals agreed with her.

 

[Howl]

They're going to say (MOO) Yes, we killed the women, but we did it to save the children.

I think they'll take the position that they felt this was a moral crisis, and they had to act.

Yes, this 100%. I'd go so far as to say that TA may consider herself a martyr, exchanging a life of freedom to save the grandkids from...what exactly?

God's Misfit's beliefs could easily have led them (MOO, speculation) to end up deeply stewed in on-line conspiracy theories promulgated by QAnon about child abduction and slavery, Satanic abuse. And yes, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, QAnon has been a gateway to sovereign citizenship. It's hard to imagine a worse mash-up of belief systems.

I'm very curious about TA's comment to LE, though. She said she was "responsible" for the deaths of VB and JK. Was it a confession to actual murder or more like, "I said some things that may have been misconstrued by my associates, who, Can you believe it?, murdered two women!" It will be interesting to see what her lawyer(s) come up with and how it all plays out over time.

Words of comfort to VB and JK's families. I can't imagine their grief as they plan celebrations of life and funerals while trying to comfort all the children who have lost their mothers.

Dear readers: Please forgive the double post. I was trying to edit and somehow ended up with the original upthread and then this new post. All similar content...just deleted this and that, added things, moved things around, rephrased this and that. I did some professional editing in a past life...

 

[Gae]

If TA or any of the others were truly concerned about the allegations of abuse and were convinced of their validity, they would have focused their murderous sights on the alleged abuser.

I don't agree with that. The abuser was a teen. In their minds, they probably thought if VB wouldn't protect her kids from a teenager, then she wouldn't protect them from anyone. In their minds, VB was the one allowing the abuse, so she had to go, and problem solved. IMO
Again - not condoning any of this.

 

[Artis]

I don't agree with that. The abuser was a teen. In their minds, they probably thought if VB wouldn't protect her kids from a teenager, then she wouldn't protect them from anyone. In their minds, VB was the one allowing the abuse, so she had to go, and problem solved. IMO
Again - not condoning any of this.

And, it was Veronica who stood gain unsupervised visitation, followed by full custody, not her little brother, so V was the enemy who had to be "taken out at the drop off point".

 

[CuriousCricket]

I am very confident in a "yes" answer given who the victims are.

Had the headlines been:

Waco II / Ruby Ridge II- Right wing sovereign survivalist types have shoot out with Federal Agents acting either on a badly botched surveillance mission, a badly conceived search warrant, or on illegal "shoot on sight" orders, the willingness to convict could be very different.

But with these victims, and especially the circumstances of their deaths, the Misfits are not going to be pulling on any right wing sympathy heart strings.

In contrast, my bet is that the Misfits wish they could teleport themselves and their cases to San Francisco. Effectively no death penalty in California and plenty of prosecutors and jurors who are not willing to consider one.

My bet is that the five defendants and the Cooks all support the Death Penalty.

 

[tlcya]

My bet is that the five defendants and the Cooks all support the Death Penalty.

They surely did when they were out acting as judge jury and executioners to two lone women on their way to visit with children.

 

[MyBelle]

Yes, this 100%. I'd go so far as to say that TA may consider herself a martyr, exchanging a life of freedom to save the grandkids from...what exactly?

God's Misfit's beliefs could easily have led them (MOO, speculation) to end up deeply stewed in on-line conspiracy theories promulgated by QAnon about child abduction and slavery, Satanic abuse. And yes, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, QAnon has been a gateway to sovereign citizenship. It's hard to imagine a worse mash-up of belief systems.

I'm very curious about TA's comment to LE, though. She said she was "responsible" for the deaths of VB and JK. Was it a confession to actual murder or more like, "I said some things that may have been misconstrued by my associates, who, Can you believe it?, murdered two women!" It will be interesting to see what her lawyer(s) come up with and how it all plays out over time.

Words of comfort to VB and JK's families. I can't imagine their grief as they plan celebrations of life and funerals while trying to comfort all the children who have lost their mothers.

Dear readers: Please forgive the double post. I was trying to edit and somehow ended up with the original upthread and then this new post. All similar content...just deleted this and that, added things, moved things around, rephrased this and that. I did some professional editing in a past life...

BBM. The on-line conspiracy theories are being spewed on-line 24/7.

JMO

 

[Cryptic]

My bet is that the five defendants and the Cooks all support the Death Penalty.

I agree- I suspect that all the defendants support the death penalty in theory. I just dont know whether they support it in practice- when applied to themselves.

 

[CuriousCricket]

They surely did when they were out acting as judge jury and executioners to two lone women on their way to visit with children.

I'm talking about Oklahoma's.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

My bet is that the five defendants and the Cooks all support the Death Penalty.

I agree…… but might be interesting to see if they all still hold that view? MOO

 

[ClearAhead]

Thank you for this explanation. So their "renouncing their citizenship" was a waste of time and money, since they paid for those packets. It amazes me the number of people who fall for these type things.

Renouncing one’s citizenship does not mean one is exempt from abiding with the laws of the land. US citizen or not, or Canadian or Mexican who is not a US citizen, committing a crime in Oklahoma one is charged and tried in acciradance with laws in Oklahoma.

Yes it amazes me as well that people fall for the SC garbage, as if it only takes renouncing one’s citizenship to be exempt from any and all laws. Can you imagine, if it was so easy everyone in prison would simply file a renouncement and demand to be freed.

However I’m not so sure if these 5 are true believers since they allowed themselves to be arrested, peacefully and without a fuss which is often not the case of SCers who perceive an arrest to be unjust. However the reason for the long parade of LE and tactical squad in this case becomes apparent and might’ve had a bearing. JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

Yes, this 100%. I'd go so far as to say that TA may consider herself a martyr, exchanging a life of freedom to save the grandkids from...what exactly?

God's Misfit's beliefs could easily have led them (MOO, speculation) to end up deeply stewed in on-line conspiracy theories promulgated by QAnon about child abduction and slavery, Satanic abuse. And yes, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, QAnon has been a gateway to sovereign citizenship. It's hard to imagine a worse mash-up of belief systems.

I'm very curious about TA's comment to LE, though. She said she was "responsible" for the deaths of VB and JK. Was it a confession to actual murder or more like, "I said some things that may have been misconstrued by my associates, who, Can you believe it?, murdered two women!" It will be interesting to see what her lawyer(s) come up with and how it all plays out over time.

Words of comfort to VB and JK's families. I can't imagine their grief as they plan celebrations of life and funerals while trying to comfort all the children who have lost their mothers.

Dear readers: Please forgive the double post. I was trying to edit and somehow ended up with the original upthread and then this new post. All similar content...just deleted this and that, added things, moved things around, rephrased this and that. I did some professional editing in a past life...

Yes TA may consider herself a martyr to save the grandkids from ???…..but typically martyrs aren’t afraid to announce the cause. This wasn’t the case here. The plan wasn’t to get caught but it didn’t go like it was supposed to. TA lied to the regular supervisor and she lied about VB cancelling her plans to pick up the children. Who knows what else she lied about. Martyr’s strongly believe in their cause so it’s unnecessary to lie and coverup. TA can’t have it both ways. JMO

 

[Artis]

Renouncing one’s citizenship does not mean one is exempt from abiding with the laws of the land. US citizen or not, or Canadian or Mexican who is not a US citizen, committing a crime in Oklahoma one is charged and tried in acciradance with laws in Oklahoma.

Yes it amazes me as well that people fall for the SC garbage, as if it only takes renouncing one’s citizenship to be exempt from any and all laws. Can you imagine, if it was so easy everyone in prison would simply file a renouncement and demand to be freed.

However I’m not so sure if these 5 are true believers since they allowed themselves to be arrested, peacefully and without a fuss which is often not the case of SCers who perceive an arrest to be unjust. However the reason for the long parade of LE and tactical squad in this case becomes apparent and might’ve had a bearing. JMO

Excellent point. I have no clue if Grice's filing asserted such a thing, though.