Raven Says . . .

[ewwwinteresting]

GM, first of all :clap: to you for searching, sleuthing, reading and being able to post all of that!

My question...one of the posters (madhatter?) thought raven was right handed, if it was head on, wouldn't someone right handed stab someone on their left side if they were facing them?

If the murderer was right handed, I'm wondering if "someone" called her name and as she turned around (leading with her right side) was stabbed in the neck on her right side?...otherwise, wouldn't the murderer need to be left handed to make sense?

 

[golfmom]

GM, first of all :clap: to you for searching, sleuthing, reading and being able to post all of that!

My question...one of the posters (madhatter?) thought raven was right handed, if it was head on, wouldn't someone right handed stab someone on their left side if they were facing them?

If the murderer was right handed, I'm wondering if "someone" called her name and as she turned around (leading with her right side) was stabbed in the neck on her right side?...otherwise, wouldn't the murderer need to be left handed to make sense?

EI, this is not a pleasant exercise, but click on the link below. and imagine your right hand on the knife. You can see that her right side is very vulnerable to an overhanded arcing attack by a knife.

Caution: GRAPHIC

http://photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/?action=view&current=autopsyj.jpg

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

EI, this is not a pleasant exercise, but click on the link below. and imagine your right hand on the knife. You can see that her right side is very vulnerable to an overhanded arcing attack by a knife.

Caution: GRAPHIC

http://photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/?action=view&current=autopsyj.jpg

I'm not seeing it. :waitasec: It looks like the knife went from right to left. I can't understand how this would happen through an overhanded attack. It almost seems as if she might have been lying on her right side when it happened.

ETA: I can see it possibly being overhanded but it seems like a difficult angle to me.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

:waitasec: GM, are we sure that the second wound to the right clavicle was an exit point for the knife? I thought I remembered reading that it was an abrasion of some sort and that its cause was not positively determined. ETA: I'm not even sure how that could be an exit point because to go as deeply as it did to cause the damage inside of the neck, the knife would then have to go under the clavicle to exit the skin at that point. I can't figure out how that would be possible, especially with a short blade.

 

[golfmom]

Hopefully this will clear this up for ya'll.

This is the knife position for a left handed person.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/100_3640.jpg

This is the knife position for a right handed person.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y288/Golfmom/100_3642.jpg

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I'm not questioning what a knife looks like in a right hand as opposed to a left hand. I am questioning the angle of the wound. To me, it does not look like an overhanded attack (right-handed OR left-handed) would result in entry and exit points in those locations. What I'm asking is how it would be possible to attack someone overhanded, and have two wounds from right to left rather than from top to bottom. I can understand a slight angle but there is a significant angle that looks like it would have to have been a really awkward hand postion if the victim was standing at the time. Also keep in mind the fact that the knife would have had to come under the clavicle and then out the other side. I can't see it being possible without breaking that bone. Is it possible that the knife "bounced" (for lack of a better word), nicking that spot on the way back out?

I'm also wondering about the blood in the right chest cavity but no significant quantity in the left chest cavity. Could this be caused by someone lying on their right side as they're bleeding?

 

[golfmom]

I'm not questioning what a knife looks like in a right hand as opposed to a left hand. I am questioning the angle of the wound. To me, it does not look like an overhanded attack (right-handed OR left-handed) would result in entry and exit points in those locations. What I'm asking is how it would be possible to attack someone overhanded, and have two wounds from right to left rather than from top to bottom. I can understand a slight angle but there is a significant angle that looks like it would have to have been a really awkward hand postion if the victim was standing at the time. Also keep in mind the fact that the knife would have had to come under the clavicle and then out the other side. I can't see it being possible without breaking that bone. Is it possible that the knife "bounced" (for lack of a better word), nicking that spot on the way back out?

I'm also wondering about the blood in the right chest cavity but no significant quantity in the left chest cavity. Could this be caused by someone lying on their right side as they're bleeding?

It's so hard to describe JG. For me the angle, wounds and knife position all line up perfectly. I think it wasn't overhand as in straight down, but more of a natural arcing pattern. The chest wound also had a right to left angle, but only slightly so. If you relook at the photos you'll see that the knife position lines up perfectly with the wound pattern found on the neck. Both the left hand and right handed positions are the most comfortable at that angle. If you try to rotate your wrists you'll find it is not natural AND you'd lose strength.

As to the left chest cavity, it would have filled with blood at any angle Janet was found, if she was alive when she sustained that injury.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

The report states that "death is most likely due to a stab wound to the neck". IMO, if the lack of blood in the lest chest cavity indicated that Janet was deceased at the time of that wound, the ME could determine that the death was in fact due to the stab wound to the neck. I don't recall the ME being able to determine which wound came first.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I think it wasn't overhand as in straight down, but more of a natural arcing pattern. The chest wound also had a right to left angle, but only slightly so. If you relook at the photos you'll see that the knife position lines up perfectly with the wound pattern found on the neck.

According to the ME report, the following was noted:

The neck wound: "the track of this wound passes backward and slightly downward". So how would the knife, on its way in and down, also hit underneath the clavicle to the right side as well in the same motion?

About the chest wound: "the track of this wound passes backward and slightly to the left", (which I can definitely see of a right-handed attack).

Note: Left and right refers to the victim's left and right.

 

[golfmom]

According to the ME report, the following was noted:

The neck wound: "the track of this wound passes backward and slightly downward". So how would the knife, on its way in and down, also hit underneath the clavicle to the right side as well in the same motion?

About the chest wound: "the track of this wound passes backward and slightly to the left", (which I can definitely see of a right-handed attack).

Note: Left and right refers to the victim's left and right.

My thought was that Janet may have been turning or hunched over trying to protect herself. Remember too that Janet and Raven are not equal height.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

My thought was that Janet may have been turning or hunched over trying to protect herself. Remember too that Janet and Raven are not equal height.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at about the different heights.

About her turning, I can see that as a possibility if it somehow nicked her above the clavicle, and the wound was below it. But how can you leave a gash above and just a little puncture below?

In case you haven't noticed, that puncture wound is driving me crazy. I'm just not seeing how it could be there unless she was on her side, tilting, or in the process of falling at the time. In that case, it would seem likely that the chest wound occured first, causing her to fall as the second strike occured.

 

[golfmom]

As far as different heights, Raven was taller than Janet, so he was towering over her.

IMO, the neck wound began at the 2:00 postition and popped out (tip of knife) around the 8:00 position. The chest wound had to be inflicted after Janet's death, otherwise there would be blood in the left side chest cavity. I just don't see the murderer rolling Janet over to inflict this final wound then placing her on her knees (in a position that Raven would not be suspicious of) and turning off the light before leaving.

 

[Jenifred]

I have also been an advoate of the chest wound being inflicted second, but what I don't understand is why the ME wouldn't have stated that in the report. Certainly they would have known if it was inflicted after death. JMO.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I have also been an advoate of the chest wound being inflicted second, but what I don't understand is why the ME wouldn't have stated that in the report. Certainly they would have known if it was inflicted after death. JMO.

I believe this as well. If the ME cannot say with certainty in what order the wounds were, then I don't believe that it was necessarily inflicted after death.

 

[Jenifred]

I believe this as well. If the ME cannot say with certainty in what order the wounds were, then I don't believe that it was necessarily inflicted after death.

Another problem that I have is that there should have been a lot of blood in the chest cavity too. And that wasn't noted. Could these things have been removed from the public autopsy?

 

[golfmom]

Cause of death is listed as the stab wound to Janet's neck. It's interesting that in the report it says only that

"They are numbered for convenience in description. The numbering system is not intended to show the order of infliction."

This is only the coronor's report, it only describes what occured during the autopsy ... I'd bet that there is crime scene analysis that has not been released, that does state the order of injuries.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

As far as different heights, Raven was taller than Janet, so he was towering over her.

How tall was Janet? Raven is only 5'11". Not quite a towering kind of guy. But Janet could have been much shorter. I don't know. And I'm kind of surprised realizing that after all of this time, I don't know how tall she was.

IMO, the neck wound began at the 2:00 postition and popped out (tip of knife) around the 8:00 position.

In order for that knife to come out under the clavicle, IMO it would either have to have been from the side of the neck or the bone would have been damaged. I personally don't think that the wound under the clavicle is an exit wound from the knife. I just can't see the knife entering the front of the neck, going underneath the collarbone, coming out of the chest, and there being no damage to the bone. But I could just be misinterpreting the diagram and the information.

The chest wound had to be inflicted after Janet's death, otherwise there would be blood in the left side chest cavity. I just don't see the murderer rolling Janet over to inflict this final wound then placing her on her knees (in a position that Raven would not be suspicious of) and turning off the light before leaving.

Maybe Janet was on her knees after being stabbed in the chest, and was then hit in the neck from above. Perhaps she fell over on her own. Perhaps Raven knew to say that she was on her knees because that's the position she was in when he hit her the second time. He realized that he could use it as an excuse for why he didn't go to her right away, (he was kissing Kaiden, buying himself a minute until he had to go and "find" her and run around for cell phones a.k.a. disposing of the weapon).

The chest wound - I don't know if it was before or after death because the ME wasn't even able to determine that. We could probably speculate for days, (and we have been known to do that - LOL!), but for some reason, the ME was not able to make that determination. Therefore, neither can I - so I'm left to assume that it was a possibility that she was hit in the chest before the neck.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Another problem that I have is that there should have been a lot of blood in the chest cavity too. And that wasn't noted. Could these things have been removed from the public autopsy?

I think it's a distinct possibility that things were left out. We don't see any mentions of the rape tests or the pregnancy test numbers. Therefore, I'm as sure as I can be that that ME report is not the complete version. However, I don't believe that they would have left that specific information out.

As far as the blood is concerned, what happens with blood if the person is lying on their side? If there is damage to the organs, is it possible for the blood to drain to only one side of the body?

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Another problem that I have is that there should have been a lot of blood in the chest cavity too. And that wasn't noted. Could these things have been removed from the public autopsy?

There's only so much blood in the body. Could it be that there wasn't much blood left to fill up in the chest cavity?

 

[Jenifred]

There's only so much blood in the body. Could it be that there wasn't much blood left to fill up in the chest cavity?

That's what I'm thinking and reasoning that the chest wound was second. The chest would have to be pretty bloody if stabbed. There are too many organs, veins, arteries, what have you to not bloody.