Richard Allen Welch, Sr.- A Person of Interest

[Richard]

Thank you for the image of the Giant Food Security Badge. Could someone post a link of the photo of Richard Welch in his security uniform (sitting on Santa's lap) here for comparison?

 

[danmanhatter]

Courtesy link Hyattsville Life & Times

image

 

[simplifymylife2014]

Here are the pictures again zoomed in

 

[simplifymylife2014]

I think the badge on his shirt matches the GF Security Badge.
The one on the hat looks different.

 

[siriunsun]

I think the badge on his shirt matches the GF Security Badge.
The one on the hat looks different.

Indeed they do.

 

[danmanhatter]

I'm not sure either one is a good match.

Notice how in the Santa picture the badge seems to lack the darker interior represented by the Maryland flag emblem? The darker interior seems to be missing in the Santa picture, but yet seems pretty noticeable if you compare them side-by-side. Of course it could be the lighting too.

The hat doesn't appear to match either way.

1) Original photo; 2) Original with Giant Food badge overlayed; 3) Side-by-side comparison

 

[Richard]

The emblem on the hat is not a "badge", but simply an emblem like all such hats have. Sometimes they resemble the badge on the shirt/coat, sometimes they are significantly different - perhaps round or rectangular.

The badge is worn on the shirt or coat and each one is numbered and individually issued.

I cannot make out much detail on the badge in the photo of Richard Welch and Santa. It does seem to be the same color and over all shape of the Giant Food Security badge in the other photo.

The emblem inside the badge is the great seal of Maryland, not the Maryland flag. It seems strange that the Giant Food Company would include a state emblem in their badge. I have not seen that in badges worn by Security Guards of other companies.

But this does seem to indicate that Giant Foods did, indeed, have their own security force. This would have been a separate force from Wheaton Plaza security.

 

[steveP120]

But this does seem to indicate that Giant Foods did, indeed, have their own security force. This would have been a separate force from Wheaton Plaza security.

My own 40-some year experience buying over 50% of my groceries at one Giant Food or another is that I never recalled seeing a uniformed security guard at a Giant Food, until a few years ago with Montgomery County passed a plastic bag tax, during when everyone, myself and shoplifters openly carried bags into Giant. Even today, the uniformed security guards are subcontracted from some other company.

This does not mean that there were UNDERCOVER security guards, whom I may have walked by, or most likely, from doing a Google search, Giant stores in bad neighborhoods had guards, while I lived in fairly upscale places that did not need guards. A Google search revealed that one Giant Food was in such a bad area, that Giant had to a guard in the parking lot, and Giant got sued when the guard was off-post and a sexual assault occurred.

The point is that the Wheaton Giant may or may never have had a uniformed security guard in the 70s. I never saw a Giant uniformed guard in over a decade at the Wheaton Giant, visiting it once a week or so in the early 2000s. Likewise, in the 70s, I never saw a uniformed Giant security guard at a different Giant. Someone who lived in Wheaton in the 70s and shopped at Giant may be able to say if Giant had a uniformed security guard.

 

[danmanhatter]

Keep in mind that most security badges are all going to look reasonably the same. Most will have a 'shield' pattern to them. Their color will most likely be either gold or silver. Given the resolution of the Santa picture, it's going to be difficult to make any conclusions either way.

The lack of the darker area in the center of the badge in the Santa picture does not bother me too much. It could be the lighting or it could simply be that Giant Food changed the design of their badges over time. It could be a generic badge that was used, or it could have nothing to do with Giant Food at all.

Simplifymylife2014,
Did your source for the badge picture have an accompanying text description or any other details? A date, year, etc? Did you find that on flickr/ebay by chance?

Does anyone happen to know what is the source of the original Santa picture? Are we 100% certain that is RW? What year was it taken, where was it taken etc?

BTW - Did anyone else notice the fairly large object in the shirt pocket? It is box shaped, looks a bit larger than a pack of cigarettes, and seems to have some sort of horizontal logo to it.

 

[steveP120]

Does anyone happen to know what is the source of the original Santa picture? Are we 100% certain that is RW? What year was it taken, where was it taken etc?



View attachment 70706

I think, but without finding a link or photo from the police press conference, I am not 100% sure, the photo of RAW in a uniform was released by the police when the police announced him as a second person of interest as in this news report:

http://hyattsvillelife.com/hyattsvi...975-disappearance-of-lyons-girls/#prettyPhoto

The police were and are asking for information on RAW's possible employment as a security guard in Wheaton in the 1970s.

 

[siriunsun]

I think, but without finding a link or photo from the police press conference, I am not 100% sure, the photo of RAW in a uniform was released by the police when the police announced him as a second person of interest as in this news report:

http://hyattsvillelife.com/hyattsvi...975-disappearance-of-lyons-girls/#prettyPhoto

The police were and are asking for information on RAW's possible employment as a security guard in Wheaton in the 1970s.

I think it's from his facebook. The police released it in their info about him, to see if anyone recognized him. I think the reason it was important to establish where and when he worked, and what he did, was to jog the memories of people who were near Wheaton Plaza on that day and establish his presence around the Lyon sisters. Now that LLW has offered more testimony, the employment information may not be as all-encompassing as it once was.

 

[Richard]

Good observations and questions.

Security Companies - the larger ones like Pinkertons, Burns, Brinks, Wells Fargo, etc. all had their own company specific designed badges and each one was/is serially numbered and assigned/issued to a specific guard. When filling out reports the guard would sign them and include his badge number. You can google those company names and see examples of their badges.

The more "generic" badges seen today are usually a silver shield with a large star inside and some sort of title like "Security Officer", "Special Police", etc. They do not have a company name or a badge number on them and are mass produced and offered by various uniform companies as accessories to their uniforms.

The photo of the Giant Security badge containing the great seal of Maryland is somewhat of a puzzle to me. All law enforcement agencies in Maryland have that seal on their badges, but seeing it on a badge issued by a private company makes me wonder. It would imply that this company is part of the state's law enforcement or that it is officially sanctioned and sponsored by the state in some way.

This is in direct opposition to my own experience and knowledge of Security Services companies. I know that some states have laws which regulate what security guards can and cannot wear in regard to uniforms and badges. For instance in some places, shoulder patches have to be red for security guards and blue or black for police. Use of any state insignia is more often specifically restricted to police than required for security guards.

Uniforms also had to be distinctly different from State and Local police. Security Guards have specific duties and normally do NOT have the power to arrest or detain persons unless they are deputized by law enforcement. Use of the official state seal on a security guard's badge might imply such deputization.

The object in the pocket of the guard in the photo appears to be either a small notebook or a handbook issued to security guards. As a Security Guard with a nationally known agency in 1971-72, I had such a handbook issued to me and was required to carry it on my person at all times. The book contained general rules, regulations, and instructions and had sections on wearing of the uniform, safety, first aid, and firearms. I recall that the back of the book had spaces to write in the names and phone numbers of supervisors, home office, and client security managers. We generally carried those little books in the shirt breast pocket.

 

[richneil18]

looks like Winstons.

 

[Wayners]

The Police have his tax filings, they know where RAW worked.

 

[beachlvr0810]

Beachlover, let me add how sorry I am that you are in this position. I remember reading your posts when the search on the mountain began and feeling very sad for you. It was apparent how difficult it was for you as a long time resident and someone with a real love of the mountain. I've always appreciated your comments and hope you stay.

Thank you georgiasblu. (((((((Hugs)))))))

 

[steveP120]

The Police have his tax filings, they know where RAW worked.

Even if the police have his W2 forms, the information on W2 is very limited. For example, for someone working at Giant Food Inc, it would have the company headquarters as the address and his total pay for the year. It would not say which Giant he worked at or what position he had at Giant. Likewise for any bank or security guard company. It would not say what days he was at work.

This is the current W2, which to me looks pretty close to the ones I got in the 70s and 80s.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2.pdf

 

[Richard]

Even if the police have his W2 forms, the information on W2 is very limited. For example, for someone working at Giant Food Inc, it would have the company headquarters as the address and his total pay for the year. It would not say which Giant he worked at or what position he had at Giant. Likewise for any bank or security guard company. It would not say what days he was at work. ...

That is correct, the W-2 would be issued from company headquarters.

IF - as has been suggested - Richard Welch worked for Giant Food Security, his records and W2 forms would have been kept at Giant Food headquarters in Landover, Maryland (Prince Georges County), which is about a 20 minute drive south on Route 202 from his residence in Hyattsville, Maryland.

We don't really know if MCP has his W-2 forms. One would hope that they do.

 

[danmanhatter]

Even if the police have his W2 forms, the information on W2 is very limited. For example, for someone working at Giant Food Inc, it would have the company headquarters as the address and his total pay for the year. It would not say which Giant he worked at or what position he had at Giant. Likewise for any bank or security guard company. It would not say what days he was at work.

Some other important pieces of information that can be gathered from the tax forms would be his address, marital status, and any dependents. It would especially interesting to see where he lived in 1974/1975.

 

[Wayners]

Well then they would subpoena the companys records. Look, the police and FBI have tons of power of investigation and they know a lot more than any of us know. They don't know everything so they try to obtain additional info outside their normal powers. Trust me, they know everything about RAW and he wasn't named as a person of interest solely based on something LLW said in prison. They have a lot more.

 

[steveP120]

Well then they would subpoena the companys records.

Most companies would cooperate with the police in a murder investigation with or without a legal subpoena, but it's likely that any time cards from 1975 are long gone. Unless my school kept my, everyone's, attendance records from 1975, I could not say where I was on any given day in 1975.