Australia Samantha Murphy, 51, last seen leaving her property to go for a run in the Canadian State Forest, Ballarat 100km NW of Melbourne, 4 Feb 2024 #8

[HoneyBunOne]

No. Each side is allowed to veto a certain number of the randomly selected potential jurors without having to give a reason. Apparently, in Victoria, the number is four.

Thanks for that. So say there's 25 jurors who have attended and said they could be impartial. Each side knocks out 4. For arguments sake, let's say none of those overlap, meaning 8 in total. That leaves 17. Are 12 then randomly chosen from there?

 

[HoneyBunOne]

I completely agree with you. However, don't some media agencies such as DM, still skirt the line of subjudice, if they categorically know something?

They'll word it very cautiously, and imply a little bit of this and that, while remaining on the right side of the law. I haven't seen any of that yet.

For example, such and such (not the accused, just a fictitious person) had a hobby of excavating in his spare time.
Nothing nefarious there, just a fact.

Totally agree with your thoughts about the DM. They have been incredibly quiet recently regarding this case. Have they just moved on to the next big case, or is there a reason for their silence I wonder?

 

[Bats]

Pardon my ignorance, but can you please elaborate on what happens once you say you are impartial? Does each side get to choose 6 jurors? Or choose as many as they like and then the other side chooses 6 from that group? I can imagine that sub conscious profiling would occur when choosing jurors.

The pool of jurors, say 30 people, when they enter the court are a number. Literally. The jurors are handed a list which potentially has names of family members of the accused and victim, friends, neighbours, colleagues and any one from either side that is related to the case.
The judge asks if any of the pool of jurors feel they should be excused due to being connected to the case in some way. If someone does, they stand before the judge and state their reason and the judge decides if that person should be excluded.
Once this is completed numbers are drawn out of a 'hat' and if your number is pulled out, you walk past the accused and a member of his/her's defence team and they are allowed 4 rejections.

Being impartial is mandatory in court and jurors are instructed extremely firmly by the judge that they are to only consider evidence that is brought before the court. It is illegal to do otherwise.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

The pool of jurors, say 30 people, when they enter the court are a number. Literally. The jurors are handed a list which potentially has names of family members of the accused and victim, friends, neighbours, colleagues and any one from either side that is related to the case.
The judge asks if any of the pool of jurors feel they should be excused due to being aconected to the case in some way. If someone does, they stand before the judge and state their reason and the judge decides if that person should be excluded.
Once this is completed numbers are drawn out of a 'hat' and if your number is pulled out, you walk past the accused and a member of his/her's defence team and they are allowed 4 rejections.

Being impartial is mandatory in court and jurors are instructed extremely firmly by the judge that they are to only consider evidence that is brought before the court.

Thanks for the detailed response. So a lot of it really does come down to the luck of the draw.

 

[JLZ]

Thanks for that. So say there's 25 jurors who have attended and said they could be impartial. Each side knocks out 4. For arguments sake, let's say none of those overlap, meaning 8 in total. That leaves 17. Are 12 then randomly chosen from there?

No, I think it's sequential. The lawyers don't get to survey the field and deselect the worst four. The potential jurors are presented one at a time*, and there's a few seconds in which they can be challenged, or not. When twelve or however many they need (maybe a couple of reserves) have survived the gauntlet, no more are brought in.

*I believe each is assigned a number, and numbers are pulled out of a hat or similar to summon the potential jurors in unknown order.

 

[Dotta]

I completely agree with you. However, don't some media agencies such as DM, still skirt the line of subjudice, if they categorically know something?

They'll word it very cautiously, and imply a little bit of this and that, while remaining on the right side of the law. I haven't seen any of that yet.

For example, such and such (not the accused, just a fictitious person) had a hobby of excavating in his spare time.
Nothing nefarious there, just a fact.

"Hobby of excavating"???
Cough, cough

 

[ProfCluezo]

Thanks everyone for providing such detailed info re legal and court processes and assumptions…. There are a lot of subtleties I wasn’t aware of…

 

[Dotta]

Totally agree with your thoughts about the DM. They have been incredibly quiet recently regarding this case. Have they just moved on to the next big case, or is there a reason for their silence I wonder?

---

Let's not pick up on DM.

All Media are as silent as a ...
Ummm....( grave?)

There must be an obvious reason IMO.

 

[Minaka]

"Hobby of excavating"
Cough, cough

I have to re-iterate, this was a completely fictional scenario. I wasn't trying to be clever, it's just the same as writing 'hobby of metal detection' There are no secret clues in my post.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

No, I think it's sequential. The lawyers don't get to survey the field and deselect the worst four. The potential jurors are presented one at a time*, and there's a few seconds in which they can be challenged, or not. When twelve or however many they need (maybe a couple of reserves) have survived the gauntlet, no more are brought in.

*I believe each is assigned a number, and numbers are pulled out of a hat or similar to summon the potential jurors in unknown order.

Thanks for the clarification. A bit like the old walk by at a night club. A quick size up of the potential suitor before making your move or walking on by to the next potential date.

 

[SouthAussie]

What's interesting about this case is the lack of local people coming forward saying 'I always knew such and such about the accused' or 'I always had a feeling because of this or that happened'. There's been nothing.

Not one person seems to have spoken out about him.

Perhaps they have, and we haven't heard it because of subjudice implications. I thought we would have heard whispers though.

From everything I've read, he appeared very 'normal'. Nothing I've read has raised any alarm bells for a 22 year old.

I think this is why this case if so intriguing, along with a host of other factors.

Can anyway recall a similar past case where there were no potential alarm bells? I don't want de-rail the thread, just think it would make interesting reading to try and understand how someone could potentially change overnight.

The HS spoke to locals and got feedback on the problems with the accused when he was 12,13,14 years old.

I doubt that he is 22 years old and has none of those problems any more. More likely that the police have asked his mates to not speak with the media.

imo


This is my previous post about the problems.

There is a HS article here (paywalled) that states that:

Some of those closest to the accused, including former St Pat's classmates, said that the accused was often on the outer and that he struggled with his mental health.
That welfare staff at St Pat's dealt with frequent outbursts.
The accused exhibited eccentric behaviour and was sometimes bullied.
The former classmates said his mental health issues were well known.

(He likely would have been 12, 13 & 14 years old while at St Pat's. imo)

While in his first court appearance it was stated that the accused .... did not suffer from any drug problems or mental health conditions. Link

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/accused-killed-patrick-orren-stephenson-shared-love-of-footy-with-his-dad/news-story/2c0249893e71c92dbf911363ef67d668?amp

 

[Minaka]

All Media are as silent as a ...
Ummm....( grave?)

There must be an obvious reason IMO.

This is actually a really great question. It is sometimes what is not happening, reported or mentioned that is truly remarkable, as opposed to what is found or discovered.

This may sound out there, so please give me a little leeway in my speculation. That's what it is. Just an idea.

What if for some unfathomable reason, police are pretending to charge the accused with murder to flush out others. The media have been given a basic brief, and they completely understand the gravity of the operation. Hence, they are all complying, completely. Which is quite rare.

edit: I can foresee a potential interview with ACA, 60 Minutes or whoever after the event in which the accused mentions how he was deeply involved with the police and helped bring the real criminals to justice. I'm not saying this is the case, just one more idea to think about. It may answer why the media isn't 'going after' him.

 

[Dotta]

This actually a really great question. It is sometimes what is not happening, reported or mentioned that is truly remarkable, as opposed to what is found or discovered.

This may sound out there, so please give me a little leeway in my speculation. That's what it is. Just an idea.

What if for some unfathomable reason, police are pretending to charge the accused with murder to flush out others. The media have been given a basic brief, and they completely understand the gravity of the operation. Hence, they are all complying, completely. Which is quite rare.

I'm more prosaic.

I guess Media follow sub-judice rules.

The objective is.....

Justice for Samantha Murphy!!!

Justice for her poor Family!!!

JMO

 

[ProfCluezo]

The HS spoke to locals and got feedback on the problems with the accused when he was 12,13,14 years old.

I doubt that he is 22 years old and has none of those problems any more. More likely that the police have asked his mates to not speak with the media.

imo


This is my previous post about the problems.

Wow…

Sadly I’m not suprised…

Nothing ever comes from nowhere….

What a tragic situation.

For everyone.

From every possible angle.

[Dr Samoht, we may be in need of your assistance to replace some souls… ]

 

[browneyes]

So...
why do we need trials/Juries/Judges if Police's evidence is so solid that some think the accused is 100% guilty?

Body language?
Blinking?
Movement of the lips, etc. indicating guilt?

Ummm...
Poor those who had their reactions misread.

JMO

LE needs solid evidence for an arrest of a suspect. They remain innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. I have believed many accused criminals are 100% guilty and many juries confirm that with their verdict. You cannot confuse having solid evidence to bring charges with how it will play out in court. LE is trained extensively to look for body language. It’s one tool used to bring criminals to justice. We know that LE had more than that in this case, but IMO, it cannot be dismissed. It’s like building a puzzle.

 

[Cliff Hardy]

No, I think it's sequential. The lawyers don't get to survey the field and deselect the worst four. The potential jurors are presented one at a time*, and there's a few seconds in which they can be challenged, or not. When twelve or however many they need (maybe a couple of reserves) have survived the gauntlet, no more are brought in.

*I believe each is assigned a number, and numbers are pulled out of a hat or similar to summon the potential jurors in unknown order.

That is my interpretation from having served, all be it a long time ago. I attended a court in the Melbourne CBD, probably the County Court and the overall pool of people in attendance was many. From that pool they read out a group of names a number of times over the 3 days you are there. So they were forming juries for a number of different cases from that one pool of people.

One thing I remember clearly was that at one point they called for everyone's attention and announced that they were looking to assemble a jury for a case that was likely to last at least a couple of months and they were virtually asking for volunteers who could afford to be tied up that long. The people who stepped up tended to be the older people, who were probably retired. There obviously still would have been a challenge process by each side in settling on the final 12 and they may even have appointed a couple of emergencies.

 

[nightrider17]

I am wondering if there is evidence (CCTV ??) of PS travelling on Butt Street, onto Elsworth Street and then through to Katy Ryans Road, or maybe the Dozed Track. Either entering Canadian Plantation from this area of leaving Canadian Plantation from this area? IMO

I just not following why the Police initially were looking more near Recreation Road/Boundary Road/Boak Road then there was a break in Police activity and then the next media reveal the Police were shown on Boak Road. IMO

There was lots of community people searching in this area too - was that just due to the proposed 14km walk and 7Km turnaround point being roughly there?? (Recreation Road)JMO

Maybe the Boak Road was once they had all of PS's logged phone activity and SM's as well. JMO

 

[tmar]

I figured that was somewhat of a joke to get your point across. I'm not sure what they can and can't ask of potential jurors, but I do know it's not just a case of taking the first 12 through the door. I can imagine it's a whole science of reading body language, profiling of the juror based on looks/heritage/age/gender etc and a million other things. After all, in major cases like this, someone's life, as they know it, is on the line. They would want to get it right.

Speaking about Jury selection: I am reading a great book, The Brass Verdict by Michael Connelly, a legal thriller.
The chapters regarding selecting jurors is fascinating: very extensive regarding whether each may help either side.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

That is my interpretation from having served, all be it a long time ago. I attended a court in the Melbourne CBD, probably the County Court and the overall pool of people in attendance was many. From that pool they read out a group of names a number of times over the 3 days you are there. So they were forming juries for a number of different cases from that one pool of people.

One thing I remember clearly was that at one point they called for everyone's attention and announced that they were looking to assemble a jury for a case that was likely to last at least a couple of months and they were virtually asking for volunteers who could afford to be tied up that long. The people who stepped up tended to be the older people, who were probably retired. There obviously still would have been a challenge process by each side in settling on the final 12 and they may even have appointed a couple of emergencies.

Thank you for more clarification on the jury selection process. I don't think there'd be many people keen to commit to a months long trial.

 

[HoneyBunOne]

I am wondering if there is evidence (CCTV ??) of PS travelling on Butt Street, onto Elsworth Street and then through to Katy Ryans Road, or maybe the Dozed Track. Either entering Canadian Plantation from this area of leaving Canadian Plantation from this area? IMO

I just not following why the Police initially were looking more near Recreation Road/Boundary Road/Boak Road then there was a break in Police activity and then the next media reveal the Police were shown on Boak Road. IMO

There was lots of community people searching in this area too - was that just due to the proposed 14km walk and 7Km turnaround point being roughly there?? (Recreation Road)JMO

Maybe the Boak Road was once they had all of PS's logged phone activity and SM's as well. JMO

I think the initial targeted search around Recreation/Boundary road was roughly the 7km/turn around mark, and therefore an area of interest for whatever reason. Perhaps by that stage they had her watch info which pointed to this location. I'm pretty sure random searches of the whole area were done prior, as you would expect, given that was the area she regularly ran in. After that first targeted search came the second one, centred around Boak Rd. I'm sure they would have had further targeted intelligence to point to this more precise area.

As for the CCTV in the industrial area, I pictured this as the escape route. Katy Ryan's road/Dozed track come out of the bush there. I wonder where he was headed and when? An industrial area would have more CCTV available than back country roads with farm houses set back from the road.