Sentencing and beyond- JA General Discussion #6

[TrialWatcher]

Regarding sex between the two of them on June 4, I believe JM and Flores stated there were pictures of them in the act but were not shown to us. Maybe the jury saw them but they weren't offered in court. I won't argue with anyone either way as we all are entitled to our opinions, but part of Juan's closing I believe was that she killed him after they had just made love and that was further proof of how cruel the murder was - that after two people just shared a most intimate moment that normally was sacred, the killer took advantage of post coital contentment and murdered him in cold blood. It doesn't matter to me why anyone feels they didn't have sex, but evidence strongly suggests it, IMO. I can't quote Juan directly but If I remember correctly he did discuss that.

BBM

Juan made that point very well. The intimacy followed by a brutal slaying.

 

[Madeleine74]

Juan also clearly made the point that the language and words used by Travis during those emails was something they (he/the state) would need to deal with. And they would need to deal with it because it was rude and cruel and Juan knew the impact of reading those words might affect average, normal people.

Juan was absolutely right to strategize about that; it could have been an issue for the prosecution. The thing that really was driven home to me as I read Juan's book is that he wasn't in a rage over the murder, Juan was clearly able to look at all issues surrounding the case, Juan wasn't into guessing or wasting emotions on the killer or what she did -- he was simply laser focused and right on target, doing his job as he always does it, staying the course to get a conviction.

 

[franquerolane]

About the spliced together sex tape: if Numiester did the splicing, I'm not buying it.

 

[Hope4More]

Juan also clearly made the point that the language and words used by Travis during those emails was something they (he/the state) would need to deal with. And they would need to deal with it because it was rude and cruel and Juan knew the impact of reading those words might affect average, normal people.

Juan was absolutely right to strategize about that; it could have been an issue for the prosecution. The thing that really was driven home to me as I read Juan's book is that he wasn't in a rage over the murder, Juan was clearly able to look at all issues surrounding the case, Juan wasn't into guessing or wasting emotions on the killer or what she did -- he was simply laser focused and right on target, doing his job as he always does it, staying the course to get a conviction.

Yep, he was laser focused. He's made it clear in interviews that what mattered to him was premed, gun, knife, brutal slaughter, conviction. That was his job and he did it well.

 

[Hope4More]

About the spliced together sex tape: if Numiester did the splicing, I'm not buying it.

I don't doubt that he spliced the bits together in the order they were time-stamped. and that he didn't alter what was on the tape. Fact is, the tape couldn't have been recorded on a single day. IIRC, the extended analysis and discussion here about this took place back in November of last year, for anyone who wants to look it up.

 

[TexMex]

Yep, he was laser focused. He's made it clear in interviews that what mattered to him was premed, gun, knife, brutal slaughter, conviction. That was his job and he did it well.

In his opening statement:

The photos recovered were time stamped. The first set snapped in the early afternoon.

"Not only was he very much alive. He was involved in these photographs with a woman. And yes, they were both sinning, because they were going at it. They were nude and yes they were engaged in sexual relations in these photographs," said Martinez.

Martinez went on to tell the jury the woman in the photos was Arias.

http://www.abc15.com/news/region-ph...pening-statements-for-jodi-arias-trial-begins

 

[Hope4More]

Juan also clearly made the point that the language and words used by Travis during those emails was something they (he/the state) would need to deal with. And they would need to deal with it because it was rude and cruel and Juan knew the impact of reading those words might affect average, normal people.

Juan was absolutely right to strategize about that; it could have been an issue for the prosecution. The thing that really was driven home to me as I read Juan's book is that he wasn't in a rage over the murder, Juan was clearly able to look at all issues surrounding the case, Juan wasn't into guessing or wasting emotions on the killer or what she did -- he was simply laser focused and right on target, doing his job as he always does it, staying the course to get a conviction.

Disagreers on this single topic: Not "average or normal people," hypocritical, misogynistic, FemBots, abusers of the mentally ill, consumed with rage over trivialities, and basing opinions on hatred. Yikes. Should I be offended?

 

[Steve44]

See, I don't think Travis used those words to shame her sexually or otherwise. I'm not even sure Jodi's capable of shame.

Setting aside for a moment the offense some people take from the words themselves regardless of context, and the fact that they provided ammunition for the defense, What effect did they have on Jodi?

Absolutely none. Remember when Skye told her she's not welcome in her house and to get out? She was completely unfazed, and sat in the kitchen for 15 minutes staring at the person preparing lunch.

In fact she was probably delighted she got such an emotionally charged reaction from Travis. She had been pushing his buttons for weeks, and this was the payoff. The content didn't effect her - she is totally insulated from any criticism from outside, but what's important to her is to get emotional reactions from others, it's how she manipulates them, and she knew she could manipulate Travis
when he had this much emotion tied up in her.

How?

Because she knew he would feel extremely guilty for every single thing he said, and that's how she manipulated him to where she wanted him on June 4.

"Let's not end this way, Travis. Let's end as friends, let bygones be bygones, we both need to move on, but we have to remember the good times, not the bad, so let's end it on a good note...

 

[Hope4More]

Setting aside for a moment the offense some people take from the words themselves regardless of context, and the fact that they provided ammunition for the defense, What effect did they have on Jodi?

Absolutely none. Remember when Skye told her she's not welcome in her house and to get out? She She was completely unfazed, and sat in the kitchen for 15 minutes staring at the person preparing lunch.

In fact she was probably delighted she got such an emotionally charged reaction from Travis. She had been pushing his buttons for weeks, and this was the payoff. The content didn't effect her - she is totally insulated from any criticism from outside, but what's important to her is to get emotional reactions from others, it's how she manipulates them, and she knew she could manipulate Travis
when he had this much emotion tied up in her.

How?

Because she he would feel guilty for every single thing he said, and that's how she manipulated him to where she wanted him on June 4.

"Let's not end this way, Travis. Let's end as friends, let bygones be bygones, we both need to move on, but we have to remember the good times, not the bad, so let's end it on a good note...

I agreed with you up to the point of- "she knew she would feel guilty.."

I think that's exactly what she THOUGHT would happen, because that had always been their pattern, and the was confident she would "win" this round too that way.

But then he didn't call or text to apologize, like he always did, and IMO it might well have begun to sink in he wasn't going to, especially given his FB messages to her replacement, Brooke.

In any case, it's also entirely possible that she had already concluded before May 26 exactly what she said to him-- "there aren't any positives left." Time to erase him and move on.

 

[LinasK]

Setting aside for a moment the offense some people take from the words themselves regardless of context, and the fact that they provided ammunition for the defense, What effect did they have on Jodi?

Absolutely none. Remember when Skye told her she's not welcome in her house and to get out? She was completely unfazed, and sat in the kitchen for 15 minutes staring at the person preparing lunch.

In fact she was probably delighted she got such an emotionally charged reaction from Travis. She had been pushing his buttons for weeks, and this was the payoff. The content didn't effect her - she is totally insulated from any criticism from outside, but what's important to her is to get emotional reactions from others, it's how she manipulates them, and she knew she could manipulate Travis
when he had this much emotion tied up in her.

How?

Because she knew he would feel extremely guilty for every single thing he said, and that's how she manipulated him to where she wanted him on June 4.

"Let's not end this way, Travis. Let's end as friends, let bygones be bygones, we both need to move on, but we have to remember the good times, not the bad, so let's end it on a good note...

Agreed! Travis was conditioned by his religion to feel shame/guilt by words such as "whoredom". Jodi wasn't and even threw them back at Lisa.

 

[Steve44]

I agreed with you up to the point of- "she knew she would feel guilty.."

I think that's exactly what she THOUGHT would happen, because that had always been their pattern, and the was confident she would "win" this round too that way.

But then he didn't call or text to apologize, like he always did, and IMO it might well have begun to sink in he wasn't going to, especially given his FB messages to her replacement, Brooke.

In any case, it's also entirely possible that she had already concluded before May 26 exactly what she said to him-- "there aren't any positives left." Time to erase him and move on.

You caught the pre-edited version. She knew he would feel guilty.

 

[Steve44]

I agreed with you up to the point of- "she knew she would feel guilty.."

I think that's exactly what she THOUGHT would happen, because that had always been their pattern, and the was confident she would "win" this round too that way.

But then he didn't call or text to apologize, like he always did, and IMO it might well have begun to sink in he wasn't going to, especially given his FB messages to her replacement, Brooke.

In any case, it's also entirely possible that she had already concluded before May 26 exactly what she said to him-- "there aren't any positives left." Time to erase him and move on.

Disagree. Yes, he was angrier than he had ever been, but she knew he wouldn't be able to escape the guilt of the things he said and acting so out of character. She let it stew for a few days and when she showed up on June 4, she offered him absolution for his guilt, and he couldn't resist. He was putty in her hands.

 

[Hope4More]

Agreed! Travis was conditioned by his religion to feel shame/guilt by words such as "whoredom". Jodi wasn't and even threw them back at Lisa.

Somewhere out there, don't remember where, is a screenshot of TA's MySpace profile page, on which he wrote (I'm guessing in April or May 2008) under " dislikes" that what he disliked more than anything else were "*advertiser censored*."

Just to point out, as Krkrjx did earlier, who knows what any of those words meant to him.

 

[Hope4More]

Disagree. Yes, he was angrier than he had ever been, but she knew he wouldn't be able to escape the guilt of the things he said and acting so out of character. She let it stew for a few days and when she showed up on June 4, she offered him absolution for his guilt, and he couldn't resist. He was putty in her hands.

I remember from way back your belief that's what happened-- that guilt still drove him-and my telling you it was my first belief too, from back even further, but that my opinion changed after reading and thinking through the texts record for April- June. Haven't changed my mind since then, and I see you haven't either.

The break I see, beginning on May 22 and complete by the 26th, is that Travis at long last saw through her, and meant what he said when he told her she was a liar to the core, that she was not who she said she was (a Mormon, trying to get right with Heavenly Father), that she had used sex for her own purposes having nothing to do with feeling love for him, and that she in fact had acted out of hatred.

I don't think he felt guilty for telling her what he knew to be the truth, however indelicate his word choice, and part of why I think that is he did not fall back into his reflexive guilt habit of apologizing to her.

 

[Hope4More]

You caught the pre-edited version. She knew he would feel guilty.

I knew what you meant. Typo is my second language.

 

[Steve44]

I remember from way back your belief that's what happened-- that guilt still drove him-and my telling you it was my first belief too, from back even further, but that my opinion changed after reading and thinking through the texts record for April- June. Haven't changed my mind since then, and I see you haven't either.

I see it as a viable, perhaps the only viable, explanation for them having sex that day, the physical evidence of which I do not dispute.

 

[Hope4More]

I see it as a viable, perhaps the only viable, explanation for them having sex that day, the physical evidence of which I do not dispute.

I think it would be far easier to see another explanation had Travis been a woman. In fact, I feel fairly certain the subject would not seem very remarkable at all, or have been much debated, had Travis been a woman who had been severely abused as a child, both psychologically and physically. Who as an adult had buried the pain and wounds down deep, but who still felt unworthy, and unlovable to the core. Who due to profound cognitive dissonance didn't feel safe or comfortable with people who loved, because abuse was ingrained at the cellular level as normalcy.

There's a reason why no one asks anymore, not out loud, anyway-- "why didn't she just leave him?"

 

[Val1]

I think it would be far easier to see another explanation had Travis been a woman. In fact, I feel fairly certain the subject would not seem very remarkable at all, or have been much debated, had Travis been a woman who had been severely abused as a child, both psychologically and physically. Who as an adult had buried the pain and wounds down deep, but who still felt unworthy, and unlovable to the core. Who due to profound cognitive dissonance didn't feel safe or comfortable with people who loved, because abuse was ingrained at the cellular level as normalcy.

There's a reason why no one asks anymore, not out loud, anyway-- "why didn't she just leave him?"

Yet people still don't see that a female stalker can be just as dangerous as a male stalker. http://www.livestrong.com/article/105230-warning-signs-dangerous-obsessive-relationship/

Btw, whoever was asking about how long JA had been with PPL, her journal at BK's site, Vol.5 March 22, 2008, P. 57, she mentions it had been 2 years since joining PPL. Plenty of time to set up a few ducks....

 

[TexMex]

I think it would be far easier to see another explanation had Travis been a woman. In fact, I feel fairly certain the subject would not seem very remarkable at all, or have been much debated, had Travis been a woman who had been severely abused as a child, both psychologically and physically. Who as an adult had buried the pain and wounds down deep, but who still felt unworthy, and unlovable to the core. Who due to profound cognitive dissonance didn't feel safe or comfortable with people who loved, because abuse was ingrained at the cellular level as normalcy.

There's a reason why no one asks anymore, not out loud, anyway-- "why didn't she just leave him?"

Men abused in childhood often are drawn to BPD females

http://gettinbetter.com/perfect.html



These "rescuers" have often suffered severe emotional trauma at the hand of an abusive parent incapable of providing the affection and emotional nourishment necessary in order to learn how to love in a healthy way. They were deeply wounded at their very core and carry the scars of lovelessness, low self worth, and self-loathing.

Males like this often get involved with clingy dysfunctional borderline women who fill the void in them left by their emotionally inadequate mothers.

 

[franquerolane]

This article explains so much about why he didn't boot her to the curb.