Surveillance videos collected

[gwenabob]

That'd be anybody's guess, IMO. If TH parked at the very rear of the two FM parking lots (as the LE presser *seemed* to imply), LE might have determined TH parked, exited and re-entered the vehicle. In that case, too, LE would know when that happened and if baby K was with her. Other than that, given the distance from the store and the darkened windows in the truck, doubt LE could see much more.

BTW: It's pretty much bogus that one can take a *typical* parking lot/store/traffic/ATM surveillance camera image, magnify it by several million percent and see a recognizable object/person. Using DoD cameras/technology? Probably. Using Secret Service expertise (they're the computer geeks who were on this case from the got-go)? ... Sure, within reason. BUT the images need have a basic resolution to begin with in order to “zoom” in and make details recognizable. No algorithm is going to completely clean up the pixilation resulting from a relatively low-rez video or photo.

That useless bit of info aside, I've always wondered why the June 3 and June 4 Albertson's surveillance video came "into play." Any takers?

To see where TH was going the day before? Dry run? Buying rope, garbage bags or a shovel? Digging a hole? To see if she could even tell the truth about where she went on June 3rd?

 

[ThoughtFox]

To see where TH was going the day before? Dry run? Buying rope, garbage bags or a shovel? Digging a hole? To see if she could even tell the truth about where she went on June 3rd?

I think those are excellent suggestions!

 

[goatman]

That useless bit of info aside, I've always wondered why the June 3 and June 4 Albertson's surveillance video came "into play." Any takers?

To see where TH was going the day before? Dry run? Buying rope, garbage bags or a shovel? Digging a hole? To see if she could even tell the truth about where she went on June 3rd?

I think those are excellent suggestions!

At Albertson's? I can't imagine her buying rope, shovel, and garbage bags at a GROCERY store and not be remembered. The next day she is on t.v. and the checker sees her..."yeah, I remember her! usually people are buying apples and bananas but she just bought a shovel and rope." I truly think we would be hearing about that.

Where would she be digging a hole that Albertson's would pick her up on camera?

Maybe, to find out if she could tell the truth about June 3rd, but liar does not equal kidnapper/murderer. They would have had to ask her or have record of her being there or not being there in order to do that.

My theory is that they were either looking for her meeting someone else (eh, we 'just' bumped into each other) or to disprove her claim of needing medicine for baby k. If she bought medicine on the 3rd she wouldn't then need to buy it on the 4th.

OR she was buying too much of *something* on both days combined----cough medicine (drowsy), lighter fluid, burn phones...ect.

ETA: from google maps, it looks like the biggest store around that area, maybe it was to see what they could find driving by...? Look at 10:00 there is a car that looks like the truck and then right after that a vehicle that resembles XYZ's. They didn't drive by here yesterday, or the day after (totally made that up, but hopefully you get what I am saying)



Don't grocery stores have those huge trashcans? Maybe that was what they hoped to find, someone dumping something. Couldn't do it at the school, but you go to albertsons buy something (so there is a reason to be seen there) and then jaunt around to the back of the building to get throw some stuff out.

 

[passionflower]

Maybe not the day before, but who would ever think about a woman buying "gardening stuff" a week before.
I am sure she already owned certain items.........shovel, hoe, duct tape, garden bags,
but something unusual.........cement, heavy rope, lme JMOO
She could of 'gathered' many things over time for her 'plan'.
Also she may be THEY????

 

[gwenabob]

At Albertson's? I can't imagine her buying rope, shovel, and garbage bags at a GROCERY store and not be remembered. The next day she is on t.v. and the checker sees her..."yeah, I remember her! usually people are buying apples and bananas but she just bought a shovel and rope." I truly think we would be hearing about that.

Where would she be digging a hole that Albertson's would pick her up on camera?

Maybe, to find out if she could tell the truth about June 3rd, but liar does not equal kidnapper/murderer. They would have had to ask her or have record of her being there or not being there in order to do that.

My theory is that they were either looking for her meeting someone else (eh, we 'just' bumped into each other) or to disprove her claim of needing medicine for baby k. If she bought medicine on the 3rd she wouldn't then need to buy it on the 4th.

OR she was buying too much of *something* on both days combined----cough medicine (drowsy), lighter fluid, burn phones...ect.

ETA: from google maps, it looks like the biggest store around that area, maybe it was to see what they could find driving by...? Look at 10:00 there is a car that looks like the truck and then right after that a vehicle that resembles XYZ's. They didn't drive by here yesterday, or the day after (totally made that up, but hopefully you get what I am saying)



Don't grocery stores have those huge trashcans? Maybe that was what they hoped to find, someone dumping something. Couldn't do it at the school, but you go to albertsons buy something (so there is a reason to be seen there) and then jaunt around to the back of the building to get throw some stuff out.

They did ask for Albertson's surveillance for the day before, but they also asked for any video surveillance from any businesses along certain roads the day before. Not just Albertsons.

 

[goatman]

Questions I have re: surveillance footage requests

Does anyone know how often the places that surveillance footage was asked of record over their tapes? Do any of them? How many of these places had 'dummy' cameras?

Which did LE emphasis: outside cameras or inside footage? Which took priority? How many stores/businesses/shops do we know LE asked for footage from?

And, if anyone has the expertise to weigh in: is it even possible that LE is trying to 'track' someone using surveillance footage along the road. Are these cameras cable of that? What would be the margin of error?

 

[Pensfan]

The media wasn't informed of all the businesses that provided their surveillance tapes to LE. One corporate business office that did provide surveillance tapes to LE was that of Fred Meyer and Albertsons. They admitted to turning over video surveillance tapes of one of their stores located near Skyline Elementary School.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5572540/kyron_horman_case_sees_surveillance.html?cat=8

Oregon and the city of Portland have traffic cams for traffic security. These could have documented TH’s route, timing, and perhaps if she had passengers in her truck.
http://www.oregonlive.com/traffic/pdx_metro/

Stores have outdoor surveillance videos in parking lots. Some may show road traffic and may have taped TH and they can legally be utilized by LE. In 1983, the Supreme Court stated: A person traveling in an automobile on public thoroughfares has no reasonable expectation of privacy in his movements from one place to another. When [an individual] traveled over the public streets he voluntarily conveyed to anyone who wanted to look the fact that he was traveling over particular roads in a particular direction, and the fact of his final destination when he exited from public roads onto private property.
468 U.S. 276, 281-82 (1983)

Margin of error is a measure used to determine the accuracy of polls and surveys. If one wanted to calculate the chance of whether or not a white 4 door, Ford F-250 truck seen on surveillance tapes was TH’s, one should calculate probability. Probability = 1 ÷ by the population of white, 4 door, Ford F-250 trucks in that area. This would only give one an approximation of the probability because a precise calculation of the population would be impossible.

 

[sorrell skye]

Probability = 1 ÷ by the population of white, 4 door, Ford F-250 trucks in that area.

respectfully sbm

1 ÷ 100 = 0.01 or 1%

1 ÷ 500 = 0.002 or .2%

1 ÷ 1000 = 0.001 or .1%


IOW - mathematically speaking, the greater the number of white, 4 door, Ford F-250 pick-ups (similar to the Horman pick-up) in the Portland area, the greater the number of potential suspects in Kyron's disappearance (if LE is looking @ drivers of white, 4 door, Ford F-250 pick-ups as potential, probable suspects).

Mathematically speaking, of course.

In the early days of this case, several Portland locals commented here on this forum about the numerous white pick-up trucks in the Portland area.
__________________

 

[Pensfan]

Hi Kermie! Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you!

A more accurate answer would be found if one used a defined population in the equation. Let’s use the specific population of Skyline parking lot on the morning of June 4th. If Kyron was seen by an employee or two employees of Skyline Elementary School getting into a white, 4 door F-250 truck between 8:30-8:45 and only ONE white, 4 door F-250 truck was in the parking lot that morning..... and it belonged to TH then:

1 ÷ 1= 1 X 100 = 100% probability of TH's truck removing Kyron from Skyline Elementary School.

 

[Pensfan]

“There have been cases where cameras of this type (traffic cameras) have been used by law enforcement to monitor the movements of specific individuals who have broken the law and are trying to escape using automobiles.“
http://www.tech-faq.com/how-do-traffic-cameras-work.html

Portland’s traffic cameras:
http://www.trafficland.com/city/PDX/index.html

Statewide traffic cameras from Oregon Depart. of Transportation:
http://www.tripcheck.com/pages/camerasentry.asp

 

[TxLady2]

It has not been confirmed that that's what she did...I'm using an example. TH claimed she 'ran errands' after dropping Kyron off. Apparently, TH claims that she can't remember what she did that morning. That's fine (even if I have a hard time believing it)...it's fine because usually when people run errands, they leave an electronic trail...so even if she couldn't remember, she could look at her debit/credit card records or look at her paper receipts to see where she'd been.

When I run errands, I do things like fill up my car, go grocery shopping, pick up dry cleaning, pick up prescriptions, deposit checks at the bank, go by the post office, etc. About 99% of the 'errands' I do involve an electronic record. I would either have an electronic receipt (i.e., I usually pay by credit or debit card), would have a physical receipt (I keep all paper receipts from gas, grocery, dry cleaning, etc.), or there would potentially be video of me (most banks, grocery stores, etc. have video surveillance). I don't know what TH claimed she did, I'm just having a hard time believing that she would have run a bunch of errands and payed in cash (possible, but not probable, IMO) or that there wouldn't be some kind of electronic trail of where she'd been (video or debit/credit card records).

I thought she had given an account of everything she did that morning after leaving the school. She stopped at two FM stores, drove around to try to soothe the baby, and then went to the gym and then home.

Is it possible that LE is trying to find surveillance video of the hour and a half that she says she was driving around, and trying to track her route through these videos? She wouldn't have had receipts for that if she didn't stop anywhere. If surveilllance tapes can place her somewhere other than where she says she was, then that would be a pretty good clue, IMO. BUT there may not be cameras in some areas where she says she drove, and it's possible she knew this and also explains why she told them she was just driving around... if they can't prove otherwise, big problem.

I could give an estimated account of my time when I'm out running errands, but not an accurate one. I would have to guess at what time I left one store and how long it took to drive to another one, and I don't keep receipts after I've recorded them in my check register... especially for gas or groceries or just one or two small items. I keep receipts for things I may have to return, otherwise they get tossed in the trash. (And I've also driven myself crazy looking for receipts that were accidentally trashed along with the junk. Doesn't happen very often but occasionally.)

 

[matou]

I thought she had given an account of everything she did that morning after leaving the school. She stopped at two FM stores, drove around to try to soothe the baby, and then went to the gym and then home.

Is it possible that LE is trying to find surveillance video of the hour and a half that she says she was driving around, and trying to track her route through these videos? She wouldn't have had receipts for that if she didn't stop anywhere. If surveilllance tapes can place her somewhere other than where she says she was, then that would be a pretty good clue, IMO. BUT there may not be cameras in some areas where she says she drove, and it's possible she knew this and also explains why she told them she was just driving around... if they can't prove otherwise, big problem.

I could give an estimated account of my time when I'm out running errands, but not an accurate one. I would have to guess at what time I left one store and how long it took to drive to another one, and I don't keep receipts after I've recorded them in my check register... especially for gas or groceries or just one or two small items. I keep receipts for things I may have to return, otherwise they get tossed in the trash. (And I've also driven myself crazy looking for receipts that were accidentally trashed along with the junk. Doesn't happen very often but occasionally.)

Thank you for this, I haven't read any other comment about keeping receipts, but there could be a lot on this forum. I find it odd that anyone would keep a receipt for a single small item, like say, a coffee. If Terri kept a coffee receipt, I have to wonder why? I know that it's speculation that she did this at all (i.e. keeping a receipt for a coffee).

Also, I haven't heard any other info r.e. Albertsons since they handed over surveillance footage.

 

[TxLady2]

I was raped by a school guidance counsellor when I was 12 years old. It was toward the end of the school day and I only had one class before the day was done.

Before the rape, I can only assume it was an ordinary school day; I do not remember.

For various reasons, I was desperate to keep what had happened to me a secret.

That evening, I was unable to remember what homework I had, so I couldn't do it. That was extremely unusual for me, I always did my homework! I remember sitting there at the dining room table with the rest of my family, staring at my books and notebooks and not able to remember anything about my day before the rape.

All I can say is that, based on my life experience, I believe that different people's memories function in very different ways.

First of all, my sympathies for what you went through. It must have been terrible for you... God bless.

Secondly, a traumatic event like that causes a lot of people's minds to block out details, especially if it is personal. Blocking them when it's someone you love and are close to is not that uncommon, either. It depends on the person, I think.

My youngest son was lost for approx. an hour and a half when he was not quite 3 years old. I don't remember the details of that day up until the time I noticed he was gone, but I do recall many things during that hour and a half while he was lost and immediately afterward. I was terrified, of course. It's been almost 25 years, but I'm not sure I could have told anyone what I was doing every minute of that day. All I remember is looking out the window over the kitchen sink and realizing he was not in the yard... I had been looking out every two minutes... that's the time it took for him to wander completely out of my sight.

The point is... people handle traumatic events very differently, and a lot depends on whether that event happened to themselves or to someone else, especially if it is not their own flesh and blood. I'm just saying, Kyron was not Terri's biological child and that could make a difference.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Thank you for this, I haven't read any other comment about keeping receipts, but there could be a lot on this forum. I find it odd that anyone would keep a receipt for a single small item, like say, a coffee. If Terri kept a coffee receipt, I have to wonder why? I know that it's speculation that she did this at all (i.e. keeping a receipt for a coffee).

Also, I haven't heard any other info r.e. Albertsons since they handed over surveillance footage.

I would have kept the receipt for coffee. I keep an envelope in my van that is for receipts and I automatically put every receipt in there. I don't stop to think about how important they are or whether I will need them, they all go in the receipts envelope. That keeps the van from being littered with little pieces of paper and it means I'm sure to have the receipts I need for business and tax purposes.

Whenever the envelope feels full (which can take anywhere from a month to a week, depending on how busy we've been), I pull out the receipts, toss the irrelevant ones and file the relevant ones.

I've got my husband trained to do the same thing.

It's easier to do something every time than it is to do it sometimes. Before I met my husband, I sorted my receipts as soon as I got them but that led to all sorts of frustration with my husband. He seems to operate a good part of his life on automatic pilot, so it is easier for me to come up with methods that he can just add to his automatic pilot routine.

I realised early on in our relationship that I could drive myself crazy with the automatic pilot thing or I could regard it as a cute eccentricity and work with it. Since I like to feel happy more than I like feeling frustrated, I've chosen to see it as a cute eccentricity. And now I truly do find it cute!

 

[matou]

I would have kept the receipt for coffee. I keep an envelope in my van that is for receipts and I automatically put every receipt in there. I don't stop to think about how important they are or whether I will need them, they all go in the receipts envelope. That keeps the van from being littered with little pieces of paper and it means I'm sure to have the receipts I need for business and tax purposes.

Whenever the envelope feels full (which can take anywhere from a month to a week, depending on how busy we've been), I pull out the receipts, toss the irrelevant ones and file the relevant ones.

I've got my husband trained to do the same thing.

It's easier to do something every time than it is to do it sometimes. Before I met my husband, I sorted my receipts as soon as I got them but that led to all sorts of frustration with my husband. He seems to operate a good part of his life on automatic pilot, so it is easier for me to come up with methods that he can just add to his automatic pilot routine.

I realised early on in our relationship that I could drive myself crazy with the automatic pilot thing or I could regard it as a cute eccentricity and work with it. Since I like to feel happy more than I like feeling frustrated, I've chosen to see it as a cute eccentricity. And now I truly do find it cute!

Yes, my husband does the same thing (envelope in the car) but Terri wasn't working so she wouldn't need to keep receipts for coffee, etc.

 

[GrainneDhu]

First of all, my sympathies for what you went through. It must have been terrible for you... God bless.

Secondly, a traumatic event like that causes a lot of people's minds to block out details, especially if it is personal. Blocking them when it's someone you love and are close to is not that uncommon, either. It depends on the person, I think.

My youngest son was lost for approx. an hour and a half when he was not quite 3 years old. I don't remember the details of that day up until the time I noticed he was gone, but I do recall many things during that hour and a half while he was lost and immediately afterward. I was terrified, of course. It's been almost 25 years, but I'm not sure I could have told anyone what I was doing every minute of that day. All I remember is looking out the window over the kitchen sink and realizing he was not in the yard... I had been looking out every two minutes... that's the time it took for him to wander completely out of my sight.

The point is... people handle traumatic events very differently, and a lot depends on whether that event happened to themselves or to someone else, especially if it is not their own flesh and blood. I'm just saying, Kyron was not Terri's biological child and that could make a difference.

It's terrifying how fast those toddlers can move! It's like trying to herd a hummingbird.

Human memory and reactions can be very strange. A friend of mine lost track of her toddler at a mall for the longest five minutes of her life. Her baby was perfectly okay but after that, my friend could never dress her in that particular dress again because it made my friend feel unbearably anxious. Rationally, my friend knows it wasn't the dress that caused the problem but somewhere in her unconscious mind, the association between the dress and the trauma was made.

Human memory is just plain unreliable, which is why eyewitness testimony can be the most unreliable of all. Well meaning, honest people can make amazing mistakes in remembering the details of a traumatic event.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Yes, my husband does the same thing (envelope in the car) but Terri wasn't working so she wouldn't need to keep receipts for coffee, etc.

However, she may have needed to keep receipts for items like medications and other potentially deductible things. KH's income was high enough that he may well have been itemising rather than taking the standard deductions.

No, TMH probably did not need to keep receipts for things like coffee but she may have been one to just automatically stuff all her receipts in the same place to go through at a later time.

Context is everything--I wish I knew the details of her normal patterns of behaviour before Kyron disappeared were like. If she was someone who kept all receipts, then keeping a receipt for coffee probably isn't significant. If she never kept receipts, though, then keeping a receipt for coffee leads to the question "why on this day of all days...?"

For that matter, did TMH have a pattern previously of driving Baby K around when she was fretful? It is something many parents do, so in and of itself, it means very little. But if TMH never did it before Kyron went missing, then the fact that she did it on that particular day leads to other questions.

 

[wvjules]

Maybe not the day before, but who would ever think about a woman buying "gardening stuff" a week before.
I am sure she already owned certain items.........shovel, hoe, duct tape, garden bags,
but something unusual.........cement, heavy rope, lme JMOO
She could of 'gathered' many things over time for her 'plan'.
Also she may be THEY????

I had NO idea you could buy cement at a grocery store. Is that common in the area? I think here I would have to go to a construction place or Lowe's or Home Depot. The things you learn on the internet!

Thank you for this, I haven't read any other comment about keeping receipts, but there could be a lot on this forum. I find it odd that anyone would keep a receipt for a single small item, like say, a coffee. If Terri kept a coffee receipt, I have to wonder why? I know that it's speculation that she did this at all (i.e. keeping a receipt for a coffee).

Also, I haven't heard any other info r.e. Albertsons since they handed over surveillance footage.

I'm a receipt keeper. Not for any reason other than I'm just lazy. When I buy something and they give me a receipt I toss it in my purse with the change or even in my pocket. I'm not sure why TMH having a receipt from a coffee purchase is such a big deal. I probably have a receipt for the grocery store from a week ago shoved in my purse somewhere.

Some have also asserted she's a hoarder so wouldn't keeping stuff like useless receipts fall in line with that as well?

Some of the innocuous stuff that points to her alleged guilt perplexes me. :waitasec:

 

[ami]

I thought she had given an account of everything she did that morning after leaving the school. She stopped at two FM stores, drove around to try to soothe the baby, and then went to the gym and then home.

Is it possible that LE is trying to find surveillance video of the hour and a half that she says she was driving around, and trying to track her route through these videos? She wouldn't have had receipts for that if she didn't stop anywhere. If surveilllance tapes can place her somewhere other than where she says she was, then that would be a pretty good clue, IMO. BUT there may not be cameras in some areas where she says she drove, and it's possible she knew this and also explains why she told them she was just driving around... if they can't prove otherwise, big problem.

I could give an estimated account of my time when I'm out running errands, but not an accurate one. I would have to guess at what time I left one store and how long it took to drive to another one, and I don't keep receipts after I've recorded them in my check register... especially for gas or groceries or just one or two small items. I keep receipts for things I may have to return, otherwise they get tossed in the trash. (And I've also driven myself crazy looking for receipts that were accidentally trashed along with the junk. Doesn't happen very often but occasionally.)

I'm not sure any part of Terri's account has been officially verified by LE, except the (second?) FM where she had an uncharacteristically friendly conversation with a gym acquaintance to show her Kyron's picture. Beyond that I think most of our timeline comes from her own words in an email and some news reports of her words - which are automatically suspect from her history of lying (and asking others to lie for her) that we've read for ourselves in her texts, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted videos to verify even the simple things she's told them - who knows if she's capable of being honest about where she parked, what she was shopping for, what she was wearing and if she was alone. Some/most of that could be verified if the cameras were aimed in specific places.

 

[PortlandMama]

Thank you for this, I haven't read any other comment about keeping receipts, but there could be a lot on this forum. I find it odd that anyone would keep a receipt for a single small item, like say, a coffee. If Terri kept a coffee receipt, I have to wonder why? I know that it's speculation that she did this at all (i.e. keeping a receipt for a coffee).

Also, I haven't heard any other info r.e. Albertsons since they handed over surveillance footage.

BBM. I consider myself very organized, but I do stuff receipts I am handed into my purse, especially when I have my toddler with me and I have other things to juggle. I just opened my purse and found three receipts, none of which I have any reason to hold onto. One is for yesterday's lunch at an inexpensive restaurant; one is for bagels and a roll of gift wrap from Fred Meyer; and one is from a second-run movie theater for tickets for my girls and myself from two days ago, for $6. I had no interest in keeping any of these receipts at the time, but my purse was a convenient repository until I decided to clean it up at some future date. They are all now going into the recycling. I personally see nothing the least bit weird about stuffing a receipt for coffee into my purse, even if I don't expect to need it to prove I did not abduct a child. If she hadn't had this receipt, it wouldn't really have mattered, because one of the videos would have placed her at this Fred Meyer around that time, regardless.