The “Undoing” of the Ramseys.

[Ames]

Ok, just to clarify my bold above. What I meant was that it was unintentional, meaning the killing wasn't planned. The person(s) intended only to "kidnap"; hide JBR in the house (crawl space?), tied and gagged; scare the heck out of JR (because he had already lost one daughter), get only the money they thought he owed them (thus the small amount). However, whatever motivated this, (the humiliation, disrespect, debt owed) had so burned in this person's gut for such a long time, that they had become unbalanced (helped by alcohol/drugs?) and something triggered the anger 'attack' on JBR. I can't help but wonder if there was someone else involved and this was who put the chair in front of the door. Did they fear for their own safety, and needed to escape?? Did the killer then exit through the basement window?

Why? Why not take her out of the house? Coming from JB's room...the front door would have been closer than the basement wine cellar. Makes no sense....sorry.

 

[MurriFlower]

Why? Why not take her out of the house? Coming from JB's room...the front door would have been closer than the basement wine cellar. Makes no sense....sorry.

The RN sounds phoney because it was. I'm suggessting it was an extortion attempt, and there was no intention to take her out of the house, nor to kill her.

Ok, just to clarify my bold above. What I meant was that it was unintentional, meaning the killing wasn't planned. The person(s) intended only to "kidnap"; hide JBR in the house (crawl space?), tied and gagged; scare the heck out of JR (because he had already lost one daughter), get only the money they thought he owed them (thus the small amount). However, whatever motivated this, (the humiliation, disrespect, debt owed) had so burned in this person's gut for such a long time, that they had become unbalanced (helped by alcohol/drugs?) and something triggered the anger 'attack' on JBR. I can't help but wonder if there was someone else involved and this was who put the chair in front of the door. Did they fear for their own safety, and needed to escape?? Did the killer then exit through the basement window?

 

[MurriFlower]

MurriFlower,

And thats called confirmation bias.

Confirmation bias eh?? RDI would know more about that than me.

Was there? How do you quantify this, or is it your subjective opinion? Have you taken any prior ongoing chronic sexual abuse into account.

I'll just refer you to the Separating Fact from Fiction Sticky
post #1 "She was sexually abused before her death
Not FACT. Experts disagree about this."

The wine-cellar crime scene is staged. You have never offered an IDI explanation for this.

Why would I offer an explanation for an idea that RDI invented?

 

[BBB167893]

Confirmation bias eh?? RDI would know more about that than me.



I'll just refer you to the Separating Fact from Fiction Sticky
post #1 "She was sexually abused before her death
Not FACT. Experts disagree about this."




Why would I offer an explanation for an idea that RDI invented?

Come on, guys. No need to get mean about this.

Why would I offer an explanation for an idea that RDI invented?

I am curious, Murri, as to how you can say RDI invented that with all of the information that's been posted on this thread alone.

 

[SunnieRN]

And inquiring minds want to know!

Unfortunately, Agatha, we have asked many similar questions and no explanations have ever been forthcoming. Just barbs against RDI and the MANY MANY experts who formed the opinions!

Ok, just to clarify my bold above. What I meant was that it was unintentional, meaning the killing wasn't planned. The person(s) intended only to "kidnap"; hide JBR in the house (crawl space?), tied and gagged; scare the heck out of JR (because he had already lost one daughter), get only the money they thought he owed them (thus the small amount). However, whatever motivated this, (the humiliation, disrespect, debt owed) had so burned in this person's gut for such a long time, that they had become unbalanced (helped by alcohol/drugs?) and something triggered the anger 'attack' on JBR. I can't help but wonder if there was someone else involved and this was who put the chair in front of the door. Did they fear for their own safety, and needed to escape?? Did the killer then exit through the basement window?

Hmmm, changed your opinion rather quickly MF. First you said this:

'That 8" head split is no accident but motivated by pure anger,'

Then you rectified it to the post above. Firstly I don't in any way, shape or form, believe that someone who had the intent of kidnapping JonBenet, leaving her 'tied up to scare John, someone you state fueled their anger with drugs or alcohol, would have been rational enough to commit this crime.

Someone this angry, would first of all been unable to cover his tracks so well. Anger to that degree, that you would kill an innocent 6 year old, is usually uncontrollable. Are you saying that this person could not control his anger long enough to actually carry out the kidnapping, but could stay calm enough to write the ransom note, which you agree is fake?

Also, if the intent was to scare John, why the sexual abuse? Or is penetrating a 6 year old, hard enough to make her bleed, not sexual abuse in your mind?

That this person, despite how angry they were, could be in the house for that long a time and only leave touch dna on a pair of long johns? Never decide after killing JonBenet, that he should just go ahead and kill John also? I mean that is who he is SO angry with. If you are going to fry for one murder, why not make it two and get rid of the person you hate.

This person who is so angry, on drugs or drinking alcohol, was with it enough to accomplish covering up his crime, but then bothered to 'comfort' JonBenet after her death? But left behind no touch dna in the process. Only on JonBenets long johns and undies.

There is a LOT of evidence that smacks your theory in the butt MF. One of the things being your opinion of the person able to carry out this crime so eloquently, while in a drug or alcohol induced anger. This is only a tip of the iceberg. The rest of the posts in this thread, blew your ship outta the water.

 

[Toltec]

The RN sounds phoney because it was. I'm suggessting it was an extortion attempt, and there was no intention to take her out of the house, nor to kill her.

Was there also no intention to sexually assault her?

 

[Tadpole12]

The RN sounds phoney because it was. I'm suggessting it was an extortion attempt, and there was no intention to take her out of the house, nor to kill her.

I've always thought the 'amatuer extortion attemp', to have it's plausability. Deadly force was the accident, the blow was meant to render her unconscious.

 

[MurriFlower]

I've always thought the 'amatuer extortion attemp', to have it's plausability. Deadly force was the accident, the blow was meant to render her unconscious.

Thanks Tad, If it was an "accident" as in it was meant to injure but not kill, then it doesn't fit with the cord deeply in the neck and the sexual violation. I just feel it was (all three) done in a crazy rage against JR and perhaps even JBRs sexualisation, then instantly regretted. A person with a personal grudge against him, and believing he owed money, but also jealous of his new family.

 

[Ames]

Thanks Tad, If it was an "accident" as in it was meant to injure but not kill, then it doesn't fit with the cord deeply in the neck and the sexual violation. I just feel it was (all three) done in a crazy rage against JR and perhaps even JBRs sexualisation, then instantly regretted. A person with a personal grudge against him, and believing he owed money, but also jealous of his new family.

Why then, did they ask for only 118,000.00? That's peanuts to a person like JR....pocket change.

 

[MurriFlower]

Why then, did they ask for only 118,000.00? That's peanuts to a person like JR....pocket change.

Ames, could I respectfully suggest that you try reading what I post in full before you ask questions?

get only the money they thought he owed them (thus the small amount).

 

[Ames]

Ames, could I respectfully suggest that you try reading what I post in full before you ask questions?

Respectfully...I did read the entire post. It just doesn't make any sense, that's all. SOOO...okay, John's Christmas bonus which was 118,000.00...and some change...was the exact amount that this intruder THOUGHT that John owed him. Yeah...okay. Wow....how "ironic".

Kinda funny that John never brought up ever owing anybody 118,000.00....and how do you THINK that someone would owe that amount to you when they really don't. I am going to go up to some people at work ...and say..."You know...I THINK that you owe me some money. I am not sure though....but, I think you do. And...I am pretty sure that it's around $118,000.00." Do you see how silly that sounds??? Sorry...I do not mean to be disrespectful to you in any way. But...really...this makes zero sense.

 

[Aleph]

Respectfully...I did read the entire post. It just doesn't make any sense, that's all. SOOO...okay, John's Christmas bonus which was 118,000.00...and some change...was the exact amount that this intruder THOUGHT that John owed him. Yeah...okay. Wow....how "ironic".

Kinda funny that John never brought up ever owing anybody 118,000.00....and how do you THINK that someone would owe that amount to you when they really don't. I am going to go up to some people at work ...and say..."You know...I THINK that you owe me some money. I am not sure though....but, I think you do. And...I am pretty sure that it's around $118,000.00." Do you see how silly that sounds??? Sorry...I do not mean to be disrespectful to you in any way. But...really...this makes zero sense.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, because I believe the Ramseys were involved in their daughter's murder.

A disgruntled employee or former employee who heard about the size of JR's Christmas bonus might be angry about the amount. $118,000 may have been pocket change to someone like John Ramsey (as someone mentioned upthread), but for most people it's more than they make in a year. If they felt Ramsey didn't deserve that kind of money, that's something to be angry about.

Admittedly, the BPD botched key aspects of this case, but presumably they would have interviewed Ramsey's employees as a matter of course. If they found someone suspicious, we would probably know about it.

 

[MurriFlower]

Respectfully...I did read the entire post. It just doesn't make any sense, that's all. SOOO...okay, John's Christmas bonus which was 118,000.00...and some change...was the exact amount that this intruder THOUGHT that John owed him. Yeah...okay. Wow....how "ironic".

Kinda funny that John never brought up ever owing anybody 118,000.00....and how do you THINK that someone would owe that amount to you when they really don't. I am going to go up to some people at work ...and say..."You know...I THINK that you owe me some money. I am not sure though....but, I think you do. And...I am pretty sure that it's around $118,000.00." Do you see how silly that sounds??? Sorry...I do not mean to be disrespectful to you in any way. But...really...this makes zero sense.

I respect your respect and raise you one.

This isn't a religion and it is not my role to convert you, or convince you of anything or explain anything to you. You believe what you want, and I will do the same. If my ideas seem silly to you, then I have to say 99.9% of RDI theories sound like BS to me as well. There's just that 0.1% of truth keeps me here. For example, cynic's post about 'undoing' at the beginning of this thread. Despite his not meaning to, he has set a sequence that makes sense to me and is: write the RN; kill JBR; 'undo' the crime. I don't see it happening like RDI which usually goes: kill JBR; 'undo' the crime; write the RN.

Take it or leave it. Believe it or not.

Oh, and 'respect' is the opposite to snickering ridicule.

 

[UKGuy]

Respectfully...I did read the entire post. It just doesn't make any sense, that's all. SOOO...okay, John's Christmas bonus which was 118,000.00...and some change...was the exact amount that this intruder THOUGHT that John owed him. Yeah...okay. Wow....how "ironic".

Kinda funny that John never brought up ever owing anybody 118,000.00....and how do you THINK that someone would owe that amount to you when they really don't. I am going to go up to some people at work ...and say..."You know...I THINK that you owe me some money. I am not sure though....but, I think you do. And...I am pretty sure that it's around $118,000.00." Do you see how silly that sounds??? Sorry...I do not mean to be disrespectful to you in any way. But...really...this makes zero sense. :great:

Ames,
Just have to agree. Not does it make zero sense, but there is zero evidence to support any IDI theory.

IDI flew out the window when Patsy declared she had placed Jenny's Christmas gift of size-12 underwear in JonBenet's underwear drawer, yet when BPD went looking not only were there none in the drawer, there was zero pairs anywhere else in the house. That is Patsy lied big time!

I reckon its intellectually disrespectful to invent a whole lot of stuff, call it IDI, and tell others on this board to take it or leave it.

It foregoes any form of critical reflection, or dialog. e.g. dont bother me with your thoughts, my beliefs are beyond inspection.

It should be the evidence that decides between member claims not simply members declared beliefs or their apparent feelings when their theory is questioned.

There is no point in having dialog with anyone who claims to know via belief. They might as well post their theory in the Theory thread and go home.


.

 

[Ames]

I respect your respect and raise you one.

This isn't a religion and it is not my role to convert you, or convince you of anything or explain anything to you. You believe what you want, and I will do the same. If my ideas seem silly to you, then I have to say 99.9% of RDI theories sound like BS to me as well. There's just that 0.1% of truth keeps me here. For example, cynic's post about 'undoing' at the beginning of this thread. Despite his not meaning to, he has set a sequence that makes sense to me and is: write the RN; kill JBR; 'undo' the crime. I don't see it happening like RDI which usually goes: kill JBR; 'undo' the crime; write the RN.

Take it or leave it. Believe it or not.

Oh, and 'respect' is the opposite to snickering ridicule.

I said that the idea of an intruder thinking that John owed him 118,000.00 was "Silly"....you called RDI theories....BS....short for Bu*l *****....I think that is hitting below the belt, and please watch what you say, or else you will not be allowed to post here anymore. Just sayin'.....

 

[twinkiesmom]

I respect your respect and raise you one.

This isn't a religion and it is not my role to convert you, or convince you of anything or explain anything to you. You believe what you want, and I will do the same. If my ideas seem silly to you, then I have to say 99.9% of RDI theories sound like BS to me as well. There's just that 0.1% of truth keeps me here. For example, cynic's post about 'undoing' at the beginning of this thread. Despite his not meaning to, he has set a sequence that makes sense to me and is: write the RN; kill JBR; 'undo' the crime. I don't see it happening like RDI which usually goes: kill JBR; 'undo' the crime; write the RN.

Take it or leave it. Believe it or not.

Oh, and 'respect' is the opposite to snickering ridicule.

Wouldn't that have to be feed the pineapple, write the RN; kill JBR; 'undo' the crime?:seeya:

 

[joeskidbeck]

On the subject of the $118,000, in all the reading that I have done on this case, it has become apparent to me that John kept Patsy in the dark concerning his financial situation. Sure, she knew that he was a wealthy man but she did not have access to John's banking records and such. It has been stated that she had an account for household goods and family needs but she was unable to write checks on John's accounts. This information is available in some of the interviews but please do not ask me for the link as I am very short on time this morning. My point in all of this is that Patsy did know about his bonus and this could be the reason for the amount in the ransom note. If they had actually had to withdraw the ransom (in order to validate the rn), she wanted it to be an amount they could readily get their hands on and this would have been the only amount she would have been sure of. I would love to have seen the look on John's face when he read that amount. Priceless!

 

[Toltec]

Murri...you didn't respond to my earlier post...waiting.

 

[SunnieRN]

It truly amazes me that someone can believe, that a person outside the family, could break in, find, feed pineapple to and kill JonBenet, without making ANY noise to awaken the family, stage the crime scene, while undoing the crime scene and bothering to 'comfort' JonBenet, while spending long enough in the house to, wipe down the flashlight, bats, placing them outside, removing evidence or hiding it to be removed later, knowing the amount of Johns bonus, which was not public knowledge, prior to murder publicity, leave Patsy and Johns clothing fibers at the scene and on the tape.....but, can't believe a family member could possibly be involved. Hmmm, which seems more logical? Is IDI possible, sure, anything is. Is IDI probable? Not even by a long shot!

 

[joeskidbeck]

Sunnie, I'm not sure that anyone could believe all that. Not without an ulterior motive anyway!