The “Undoing” of the Ramseys.

Is there evidence of undoing?

  • Yes

    Votes: 74 77.9%
  • No

    Votes: 8 8.4%
  • Not sure

    Votes: 13 13.7%

  • Total voters
    95
I don't think the DNA is proof that an IDI but it needs explaining IMO
If they ever find the donor of the DNA and find they have an airtight alibi it will leave
the family as the main suspects.
But if not then it may lead to IDI or someone else was present with the ramseys when it happened.
 
To UkGuy: the reason it is in codis is because it is unidentified DNA in a murder case found on the victim firstly they checked against what was already in there and found no match. It will stay in there and if for example a person is convicted of an offence and their DNA matches then they will have some explaining to do. It is in there because the police think it might be from the perp .
 
I love the way you are quoting from John Douglas to support theories of undoing and staging to implicate the Ramseys but at the same time dismissing his report on the case because it doesn't support RDI! amazing.

There's nothing "amazing" about it, FairM. This is one of the major points we've been making around here: how his OWN writings NATURALLY implicate the Ramseys, and how he IGNORED them (AND the rules of his own profession) in order to give his clients a pass. Thus, I fail to see why his report should NOT be dismissed.

ST is not the ONLY person to point this out; many of Douglas's close colleagues called him out for doing this very thing. And he HATES them for it.
 
Excuse me for butting in.

Well I believe that the DNA which is of course lodged in Codis (apparently they lodge DNA in Codis for a reason) is evidence of an intruder.

You may believe it, but it helps to remember that it was politicked inot CODIS against their minimum requirements. It takes 13 markers to get into CODIS. This one had 9-1/2, and they had to amplify it to get THAT many. Too thin for me.

I also think that the RN is evidence of an intruder, I do not accept that there is conclusive evidence that Patsy wrote that note.

I guess you haven't seen the new comparison charts, then!

In fairness, FairM, I will say this: handwriting analysis is such a subjective field to begin with, even experts often don't agree. So what may be conclusive to one person may not "cut it," as we Yankees say, to another. I find it's helpful to consider other factors, as UKGuy is doing.

Further evidence is the fact that the tape and cord has not been sourced to the house so must have come from outside by an intruder.

I'd call that a very sloppy assumption. IDI talks as if the cord and tape were not sourced to the house, but as I see it, that's open to interpretation. Patsy's credit card records show purchases from a hardware store in the area that sold those items, and the prices happen to match up.

But even if I took the "not sourced" claim at face value, the idea that it automatically leads to an intruder seems faulty. It wouldn't be too hard to get rid of the leftovers, especially since the Rs were not searched when they left the house.

I'm of the mind that there may not have BEEN any leftovers to get rid of! That it was all used up. I've heard some pretty persuasive arguments that the cord and tape were USED items taken off something else.

Just things to keep in mind.
 
Hi UKGuy,

Well I believe that the DNA which is of course lodged in Codis ( apparently they lodge DNA in Codis for a reason) is evidence of an intruder.
No, its evidence of someone elses DNA - for now, that is all it is evidence of.

I happen to believe the Ramseys when they said that they had nothing to do with their daughter's death and that therefore leaves an intruder, that person may not have been a stranger to JonBenet. I also think that the RN is evidence of an intruder, I do not accept that there is conslusive evidence that Patsy wrote that note.
Opinion respected.
Further evidence is the fact that the tape and cord has not been sourced to the house so must have come from outside by an intruder.
Do you look at what IS sourced to the house?
The pad
the pen
the paint brush
John's fibers in her underwear
Patsy's jacket fibers under the tape
Size 12 panties bought by Patsy

If items being sourced from the crime scene are relevant, why aren't the above as relevant as what was not there?

It was Christmas - lots of presents were bought - tape and rope are everywhere on many items...then there's the fact that none of the Ramsey's were searched when leaving the house - not even Burke with his back pack.

We do not know for sure she was redressed in the size 12s , she could have had those on all day.

I believe the wiping down was done to remove evidence not to undo the crime. I believe the blanket was picked up with JonBenet when she was removed from her bed,

why do you think the size 12s are staging as opposed to undoing? what does dressing her in size 12 stage?
 
To UkGuy: the reason it is in codis is because it is unidentified DNA in a murder case found on the victim firstly they checked against what was already in there and found no match. It will stay in there and if for example a person is convicted of an offence and their DNA matches then they will have some explaining to do. It is in there because the police think it might be from the perp .

FairM,
So if it is unidentified DNA and there was no match. How come you know there was an intruder?



.
 
I guess you haven't seen the new comparison charts, then!

In fairness, FairM, I will say this: handwriting analysis is such a subjective field to begin with, even experts often don't agree. So what may be conclusive to one person may not "cut it," as we Yankees say, to another. I find it's helpful to consider other factors, as UKGuy is doing.


Heyya SD.

I guess you haven't seen the new comparison charts, then! - SD

What do you mean by this statement,
Has CW released additional material?
or what? is it a dangling carrot?
 
Heyya SD.

I guess you haven't seen the new comparison charts, then! - SD

What do you mean by this statement,
Has CW released additional material?
or what? is it a dangling carrot?

Hi, Tadpole!

If I'm interpreting this right, based on what she said on the radio broadcast, she's already given us some material we did not have access to, and is planning to release more. But you'd have to ask Tricia for more details.

But let me say this: because it's such a subjective science, it's not the experts who decide if someone has written a questioned document; it's the JURY. Let's not forget that.
 
I have been following this case obsessively for year. But never new if anyone made any corroborations for the bowl of pineapple that was found in the kitchen. I know JonBenet had eaten it. But did Patsy or anyone say that they prepared it for her?
 
I have been following this case obsessively for year. But never new if anyone made any corroborations for the bowl of pineapple that was found in the kitchen. I know JonBenet had eaten it. But did Patsy or anyone say that they prepared it for her?

No, no one admits to fixing the pineapple snack for JB.

You might get lots of replies to this - or maybe not. If you do get lots of replies you'll hear some fantastic theories about what the pineapple means in terms of who did what and when.

Bottom line, very little can be learned from the fact that she ate pineapple.

We know from average digestion times that she must have eaten it about 1.5 to 2 hours prior to death. Remember that there can be individual variation in digestion times, but lets say about 2 hours is a good estimate. (Because estimates, as opposed to exact times, are all we can get)

We know she couldn't have died before 10pm because the family arrived home sometime between 9:30 and 10.

We know she was in rigor when JR "found" her and brought her upstairs.

We know rigor sets in from 3 to 4 hours after death, reaching maximum stiffness in about 12 hours. We also know that dissipation of rigor is gradual so the body might be very stiff (but not at maximum stiffness) from about 10 or 11 hours after death, reaching max stiffness at about 12 hours, and still be very stiff for a few more hours) So our estimates of TOD can be off by a couple hours either way. Since she was stiff at 1pm she must have died roughly at 1am, give or take a couple hours.

The reason the "give or take a couple hours" is important is that there are many possible scenarios by which JB could have eaten pineapple. Predictably, many will insist that such and such scenario must have taken place because it fits with their theory of the case. In truth, multiple scenarios are possible, and probable. Therefore, the pineapple is largely a dead end.

The reason there is so much focus on the pineapple is that people tend to believe that the Rs have been caught in a lie, and of course, if they are lying they must be guilty, and interestingly, it doesn't matter which RDI scenario one picks, there will be someone to say that the eating of pineapple supports their theory - PDI, JDI, BDI, whatever.

Here are some possibilities;

1. The pineapple snack was prepared by PR, after the family returned from a party. Never mind that there was plenty to eat at the party, and never mind that it was well past the kid's bedtime, and that they all had to get up early to fly to MI.

2. The pineapple was still out from earlier in the day.

3. The pineapple was prepared by a mysterious intruder.

4. The pineapple was prepared by BR, later at night, after the adults went to bed.

These scenarios can be combined with JB sitting at the table eating, but apparently not handling any utensils, glasses, bowls.

Or BR could have brought some upstairs with him on his way to bed and given some to JB who was already in bed.

Or JB could have got up after the parents were in bed, went down and had some pineapple, then went back to bed. ]

Or JB could have come in the house under her own steam, as BR claims, went right to the pineapple which had been left out from earlier, then went up to bed. The Rs may or may not have lied about her being carried up to bed, they may simply not recall correctly (I know, they are supposed to have perfect recall and since we already think they are guilty they must have lied)

You'll find people insisting that the fingerprints are revealing, but fingerprints can't be time stamped and jprints are not always left behind, so we know PR handled the bowl, and BR handled the tea glass, but we don't know at what time, and we don't know whether JB was there or not -absence of prints is not proof of absence. But if she wasn't present how did she eat pineapple?


There are several possible combinations, and we can't say with any reasonable certainty which one actually happened.

It's possible the Rs are lying about JB going straight to bed. It's also possible that they are simply not aware that JB ate pineapple (because of one of the scenarios in which the parents didn't need to be present/aware of her eating pineapple) It's also possible that one parent is ignorant, the other knows she ate pineapple but can't reveal that.

Q: If both adults knew JB ate pineapple, why didn't they incorporate that into the story they told the police? IMO it is beyond the pale that they never considered there would be an autopsy.

My feeling is that if both parents knew then that becomes part of the story. So, imo, both parents are ignorant of JB having a few pieces of pineapple, or one is ignorant and the other knows but can't admit knowing.

As an aside, IMO, a deadly altercation getting started over a pineapple snack seems unlikely.

The main point is that there are so many possible/plausible scenarios that nothing concrete can be determined. She ate pineapple, about 2 hours before death. That's it. Nothing more to be learned from the pineapple. We don't know if BR spoon fed her from his bowl, we don't know if she got some with her fingers, we don't know if BR brought some up to her, we don't know if she got up from bed and got some later in the night. ........etc.


But no, no one admits to preparing the pineapple snack. At least not to my knowledge.
 
I have been following this case obsessively for year. But never new if anyone made any corroborations for the bowl of pineapple that was found in the kitchen. I know JonBenet had eaten it. But did Patsy or anyone say that they prepared it for her?

Sharmila,
Nice name BTW. The simple answer is no! Patsy denied all knowledge regarding the pineapple and the artifacts on the table.

Its helpful when constructing a theory to select the plausible and probable from the myriad of possible explanations, otherwise your head could expand and eventually explode under the strain.

So the evidence in short is Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints were on the serving bowl, and Burke's fingerprint was on the tea-glass.

The simplest explanation is that both BR and PR were present at the pineapple snack?

Yet apparently whoever dreamt up the R's version of events forgot, or never knew about the pineapple snack, so failed to incorporate it into their version of events.

Assuming not knowing is the correct interpretation, then possibly PR had prepared the pineapple on another day, but was absent from the pineapple snack, explaining her fingerprint and ignorance.

So with BR's fingerprints on both the bowl and the tea-glass, this links him to the breakfast bar and JonBenet. Consider BR's touch-dna was also discovered on JonBenet's Pink Barbie-Nightgown. Coincidence you decide.

It might be JonBenet snacked pineapple by herself that night and the other fingerprints arrived on prior occassions or had nothing to do with the pineapple snack, e.g. coincidence.

So whats more plausible, Patsy never knew about the pineapple snack, hence her denials, and that Burke served up the pineapple to JonBenet whilst sipping some tea, or any of the other numerous offerings?

That the R's never incorporated the pineapple snack into their version of events, makes the former much more probable than any of the latter, since it is at least consistent with the forensic evidence.

James Kolar thinks events kicked off in the breakfast bar that night, suggesting he has seen forensic evidence we have not, which along with his elliptical BDI theory implies BR served up the pineapple snack?


.
 
Thanks everyone. All very interesting. I know I read about this pineapple thing back in 1998. So have forgotten most details.

I also believe that the nights events began in the breakfast bar. I have since found out that the pineapple did not come from a can. It was in fact freshly cut. But all family members have admitted that there was no fresh pineapple in the house at that time. There was also a tall glass with tea & a tea bag in it right next to the bowl of pineapple. Apparently JB was not fond of tea. So obviously someone else consumed it. It really puzzles me.

Unfortunately the fingerprint evidence are very ify. Since they all live in the same house.

I have a question about the house. Did the Ramsey's build it? Anyone know?
 
Thanks everyone. All very interesting. I know I read about this pineapple thing back in 1998. So have forgotten most details.

I also believe that the nights events began in the breakfast bar. I have since found out that the pineapple did not come from a can. It was in fact freshly cut. But all family members have admitted that there was no fresh pineapple in the house at that time. There was also a tall glass with tea & a tea bag in it right next to the bowl of pineapple. Apparently JB was not fond of tea. So obviously someone else consumed it. It really puzzles me.

Unfortunately the fingerprint evidence are very ify. Since they all live in the same house.

I have a question about the house. Did the Ramsey's build it? Anyone know?

The Ramsey's did not build the house but did do extensive renovations after they bought it.
 
wait a minute!

BR's touch-dna was also discovered on JonBenet's Pink Barbie-Nightgown?!??!
 
Thanks everyone. All very interesting. I know I read about this pineapple thing back in 1998. So have forgotten most details.

I also believe that the nights events began in the breakfast bar. I have since found out that the pineapple did not come from a can. It was in fact freshly cut. But all family members have admitted that there was no fresh pineapple in the house at that time. There was also a tall glass with tea & a tea bag in it right next to the bowl of pineapple. Apparently JB was not fond of tea. So obviously someone else consumed it. It really puzzles me.

Unfortunately the fingerprint evidence are very ify. Since they all live in the same house.

I have a question about the house. Did the Ramsey's build it? Anyone know?


There was fresh pineapple in the house. It was in the fridge. The pineapple in the bowl on the table matched the pineapple in the fridge. I have never seen where the family claimed there was no pineapple in the house. They claimed not to know how or when she ate the pineapple. Both Patsy and BR's fingerprints were found on the bowl of pineapple on the able. BR's prints were found on the glass with the tea bag. Nothing has been said about the spoon. We do not know whether the spoon was tested for prints or evidence of JB's saliva. We do not know whether the little paper tag on the tea bag was ever tested for prints or other DNA. We do not know if the rim of the glass was ever tested for saliva to see who drank from it. I would assume that since we do not know, there is a chance these items were never tested.
 
There was fresh pineapple in the house. It was in the fridge. The pineapple in the bowl on the table matched the pineapple in the fridge. I have never seen where the family claimed there was no pineapple in the house. They claimed not to know how or when she ate the pineapple. Both Patsy and BR's fingerprints were found on the bowl of pineapple on the able. BR's prints were found on the glass with the tea bag. Nothing has been said about the spoon. We do not know whether the spoon was tested for prints or evidence of JB's saliva. We do not know whether the little paper tag on the tea bag was ever tested for prints or other DNA. We do not know if the rim of the glass was ever tested for saliva to see who drank from it. I would assume that since we do not know, there is a chance these items were never tested.

We also do not know how long the tea glass and pineapple bowl were on the counter.

We do know that PR was a poor to appalling housekeeper. Things would be left out for days or longer if she didn't have paid help.
 
There was fresh pineapple in the house. It was in the fridge. The pineapple in the bowl on the table matched the pineapple in the fridge. I have never seen where the family claimed there was no pineapple in the house. They claimed not to know how or when she ate the pineapple. Both Patsy and BR's fingerprints were found on the bowl of pineapple on the able. BR's prints were found on the glass with the tea bag. Nothing has been said about the spoon. We do not know whether the spoon was tested for prints or evidence of JB's saliva. We do not know whether the little paper tag on the tea bag was ever tested for prints or other DNA. We do not know if the rim of the glass was ever tested for saliva to see who drank from it. I would assume that since we do not know, there is a chance these items were never tested.

Gosh! I didnt know that! For 15 years I been under the impression that they didnt have nay pineapple in the house. Definitely a surprise for me. Hmmm.. that puts a whole new twist on things in my head.
 
We also do not know how long the tea glass and pineapple bowl were on the counter.

We do know that PR was a poor to appalling housekeeper. Things would be left out for days or longer if she didn't have paid help.

Yeah I read somewhere that she was not very big on teaching her kids to pick up after themselves either. She didnt even remember the last time JB had a bath before she died. Its had to estimate anything, timing wise when her accounts of their household routine is all over the place.
 
Yeah I read somewhere that she was not very big on teaching her kids to pick up after themselves either. She didnt even remember the last time JB had a bath before she died. Its had to estimate anything, timing wise when her accounts of their household routine is all over the place.

Sharmila,
Its safe to assume the R's purchased the pineapple and that Patsy or the store prepared it.

Who brings freshly cut pineapple to a kidnap job?

You have the R's denial regarding the pineapple and artifacts on the breakfast bar table, always a suspicious sign.

With BR's prints on two items this moves speculation from circumstantial to the probable.

The breakfast bar scene is just what it looks look, i.e. the remnants of a pineapple snack, complete with bowl and spoon.

What is more interesting is that the R's failed to incorporate this into their version of events, what does this suggest?

That both PR and JR were unaware that JonBenet snacked pineapple with BR in the breakfast bar.

Now if BR is innocent and another R molested and killed JonBenet after the pineapple snack, why is BR not wanting to tell his parents about the pineapple snack, why did it fly under the radar?


.
 
Sharmila,
Its safe to assume the R's purchased the pineapple and that Patsy or the store prepared it.

Who brings freshly cut pineapple to a kidnap job?

You have the R's denial regarding the pineapple and artifacts on the breakfast bar table, always a suspicious sign.

With BR's prints on two items this moves speculation from circumstantial to the probable.

The breakfast bar scene is just what it looks look, i.e. the remnants of a pineapple snack, complete with bowl and spoon.

What is more interesting is that the R's failed to incorporate this into their version of events, what does this suggest?

That both PR and JR were unaware that JonBenet snacked pineapple with BR in the breakfast bar.

Now if BR is innocent and another R molested and killed JonBenet after the pineapple snack, why is BR not wanting to tell his parents about the pineapple snack, why did it fly under the radar?


.

Yep someone in the house has to have served JB the pineapple.

Since the first time I heard of this case I believed that she was killed by someone who the family has intentionally let into the house. I also believe the parents have some hand in it.

John Ramsey's still doing interviews about his book.. I cant get my self to even watch him. He gives me the creeps big time. I feel like now that Patsy's gone he can say just about anything. And BR seems to be still hiding in the shadows!

I thought I new all the facts in this case years ago. But now I cant seem to keep up with all the info. Every time I get a little bit more info and try to find out more I get hit by an avalanche of information overload :tantrum: I just got the James Kolar book. I seriously need to catch up on my facts.:sigh:
 

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