The cries for help

[ariesgodofwar]

Zimmerman didn't need to hit Trayvon. He had a gun to use instead of his fists. Trayvon was fighting him off - fighting for his life.

And you know that GZ had his sidearm drawn prior to being hit by TM how? Please source this. It defies logic. If I have a firearm drawn, I am not going to allow someone to get close enough to attempt to take it from me, or attack me.

So, is it your belief that TM tried to punch a man that had a firearm already drawn? That is worse than bringing a knife to a gun fight. Why didn't GZ shoot TM prior to taking the beating if he was able to? The altercation seems to have lasted over a minute, that is a long time to take a beating, especially if you had the ability to end it much sooner.

 

[suzihawk]

And you know that GZ had his sidearm drawn prior to being hit by TM how? Please source this. It defies logic. If I have a firearm drawn, I am not going to allow someone to get close enough to attempt to take it from me, or attack me.

So, is it your belief that TM tried to punch a man that had a firearm already drawn? That is worse than bringing a knife to a gun fight. Why didn't GZ shoot TM prior to taking the beating if he was able to? The altercation seems to have lasted over a minute, that is a long time to take a beating, especially if you had the ability to end it much sooner.

First, I'm not convinced Zimmerman 'took a beating'. At least not by the hands of Trayvon, as the lack of injuries to his hands indicate. I'm not sure how GZ came by the scratches and lacerations to his head. There are a number of other ways he may have come by those superficial injuries.

As I've previously stated, I believe Zimmerman confronted Trayvon and intentionally exposed his weapon in an attempt to intimidate and detain him. I believe he grabbed hold of Trayvon when the struggle and screaming ensued as Trayvon was fighting for his life. Then, as we all know, Zimmerman shot him at close range directly in his heart.

 

[stmarysmead]

I never said he deserved to be beaten, and I fail to see how any of the other statements you make have anything to do with the content of my post that you quoted with this response.

And by the way, as far as I know that mentoring of minority children has never been confirmed by any source other than GZ's family/friends. If you know differently I would love to see it.

ETA again: I work for a child-serving organization and I guarantee you that NO ONE who had had any type of DV history, as GZ did, would EVER be allowed in the volunteer door. Domestic violence and child abuse go hand-in-hand.

So I'm really interested in this mentoring history. Was it done in conjunction with any agency?

ETA: I also have seen no evidence that his neighborhood was "riddled" with crime. It wasn't the South Bronx. Which also isn't even the South Bronx any more in terms of crime.

You seem to have missed this article which forces me to ONCE again post it.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

The neighborhood was under seige for crime from young Black youths and examples are given.

People are not one-dimensional. When every scrap of positive information about GZ is rejected out of hand...including in numerous posts, mocking his injuries, casting aspersions on any witness who helps him while embracing totally any witness that does not....denying the man could be a mentor....what I see is a jury pool that Crump and media cronies have poisoned. If God himself came down and testified for GZ, this type of Bias that will allow NOTHING to be good about this man...is painfully evident.

GZ has been stripped of his humanity now. If there is any "profiling" in this case, it is of HIM...by Crump and the Media...as the totally evil White Hispanic who cannot have injuries or have done one kind thing in his life. On every threaad here, I see SOMEWHERE the conclusion that this depravity even extends to his Black friends and to his Family. And it has worked. Read this thread.

And if we try to defend to these assumptions, wrapped in various posts...we are "off-topic."
If one wonders why there is so much backlash building it is for THIS reason. The same people who claim that many could not see the "worth" of TM because of his color...cannot themselves now see any worth in GZ because of this "event."

There is middle ground.

TM WAS having problems. GM and his neighbors were frustrated by crime. The majority of crime was by Black teenagers. They had a confrontation. TM did not set out to rob. GZ did not set out to kill. No one has to be demonized. But when EVERY thing good about GZ has to be denied or ridiculed, there will be backlash.

Personally, I had no problem wuth this going to trial till I spent a few days reading comments. I pray charges are dismissed because the hatred is so intense and the bias so deep...he cannot get a fair trial.

 

[LambChop]

And you know that GZ had his sidearm drawn prior to being hit by TM how? Please source this. It defies logic. If I have a firearm drawn, I am not going to allow someone to get close enough to attempt to take it from me, or attack me.

So, is it your belief that TM tried to punch a man that had a firearm already drawn? That is worse than bringing a knife to a gun fight. Why didn't GZ shoot TM prior to taking the beating if he was able to? The altercation seems to have lasted over a minute, that is a long time to take a beating, especially if you had the ability to end it much sooner.

I think many believe because this took place in over a minute that there was a verbal altercation first near the bushes, TM tried to walk or run, GZ dropped his flashlight and keys and caught TM and they fell into the bushes and that is how GZ received the scratches. We know by a witness there was running and again GZ could have grabbed TM, they slipped and fell TM landing on top and GZ banging his head on something hard.

The cries we hear on the 911 tapes did not last a full minute and Mary C. did say the original altercation happened a few houses down from her with shouting and TM's body ended up 19 foot from her back porch so we know they started arguing prior to them landing on the ground, when the cries started.

No prints on the gun from TM should tell us there was no struggle for the gun as GZ claimed. A bullet straight through the heart could indicate they had started to stand up and maybe TM was still trying to get away. TM's body did not get face down from falling in a sitting position. His heart exploded and both lungs collapsed instantly upon impact of the bullet. He was dead before he hit the ground...there could not have been any twisting or turning. He literally dropped dead upon impact. And TM certainly did not have enough time to speak. That could be why those cries stopped so abruptly. jmo

 

[LambChop]

You seem to have missed this article which forces me to ONCE again post it.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425

The neighborhood was under seige for crime from young Black youths and examples are given.

People are not one-dimensional. When every scrap of positive information about GZ is rejected out of hand...including in numerous posts, mocking his injuries, casting aspersions on any witness who helps him while embracing totally any witness that does not....denying the man could be a mentor....what I see is a jury pool that Crump and media cronies have poisoned. If God himself came down and testified for GZ, this type of Bias that will allow NOTHING to be good about this man...is painfully evident.

GZ has been stripped of his humanity now. If there is any "profiling" in this case, it is of HIM...by Crump and the Media...as the totally evil White Hispanic who cannot have injuries or have done one kind thing in his life. On every threaad here, I see SOMEWHERE the conclusion that this depravity even extends to his Black friends and to his Family. And it has worked. Read this thread.

And if we try to defend to these assumptions, wrapped in various posts...we are "off-topic."
If one wonders why there is so much backlash building it is for THIS reason. The same people who claim that many could not see the "worth" of TM because of his color...cannot themselves now see any worth in GZ because of this "event."

There is middle ground.

TM WAS having problems. GM and his neighbors were frustrated by crime. The majority of crime was by Black teenagers. They had a confrontation. TM did not set out to rob. GZ did not set out to kill. No one has to be demonized. But when EVERY thing good about GZ has to be denied or ridiculed, there will be backlash.

Personally, I had no problem wuth this going to trial till I spent a few days reading comments. I pray charges are dismissed because the hatred is so intense and the bias so deep...he cannot get a fair trial.

This is off-topic and we all seem to keep headed in that area, including me. lol The post should go into another thread if it's to be discussed. It puts others at a disadvantage because we know we are not suppose to answer. So if you move it to the proper thread we could discuss it. Thanks

 

[magnolia]

I think many believe because this took place in over a minute that there was a verbal altercation first near the bushes, TM tried to walk or run, GZ dropped his flashlight and keys and caught TM and they fell into the bushes and that is how GZ received the scratches. We know by a witness there was running and again GZ could have grabbed TM, they slipped and fell TM landing on top and GZ banging his head on something hard.

The cries we hear on the 911 tapes did not last a full minute and Mary C. did say the original altercation happened a few houses down from her with shouting and TM's body ended up 19 foot from her back porch so we know they started arguing prior to them landing on the ground, when the cries started.

No prints on the gun from TM should tell us there was no struggle for the gun as GZ claimed. A bullet straight through the heart could indicate they had started to stand up and maybe TM was still trying to get away. TM's body did not get face down from falling in a sitting position. His heart exploded and both lungs collapsed instantly upon impact of the bullet. He was dead before he hit the ground...there could not have been any twisting or turning. He literally dropped dead upon impact. And TM certainly did not have enough time to speak. That could be why those cries stopped so abruptly. jmo

They fell into the bushes?
That is how Zimmerman received the scratches?
Where are the scratches on Trayvon's body? Any scratches mentioned in his autopsy report?


No prints on the gun from TM should tell us there was no struggle for the gun as GZ claimed.
Could have been a struggle for the gun without TM ever putting a hand on it. IMO

 

[ariesgodofwar]

First, I'm not convinced Zimmerman 'took a beating'. At least not by the hands of Trayvon, as the lack of injuries to his hands indicate. I'm not sure how GZ came by the scratches and lacerations to his head. There are a number of other ways he may have come by those superficial injuries.

As I've previously stated, I believe Zimmerman confronted Trayvon and intentionally exposed his weapon in an attempt to intimidate and detain him. I believe he grabbed hold of Trayvon when the struggle and screaming ensued as Trayvon was fighting for his life. Then, as we all know, Zimmerman shot him at close range directly in his heart.

So George broke his nose and received large contusions on his head from the bushes? The same broken nose that an officer of the law photographed at the scene, and the same contusions and lacerations noted in the responding officers report, as well as evidenced by the police department surveillance video, and an hour 1+ later when they police photographs were taken at the Sanford PD.

Just come out and say it, are you conjecturing that either the Police beat GZ up to "fake" the injuries he received, or that GZ began beating himself before the police arrived, or had one of the witnesses beat him up to make this look like self-defense? I guess I am not following you. You toss "unsubstantiated allegations" out there as if you are the Defense Attorney to introduce "reasonable doubt" to the veracity of GZ's claims and the evidence, however, in this case, it is the State which must prove them with specificity and beyond a reasonable doubt.

The scratches could have come from many things, possibly the bushes (note that TM did not have any noted scratches, so if they both fell into the bushes, I think you would expect to see some on him given the way GZ looked).

 

[Dr.Fessel]

And you know that GZ had his sidearm drawn prior to being hit by TM how? Please source this. It defies logic. If I have a firearm drawn, I am not going to allow someone to get close enough to attempt to take it from me, or attack me.

So, is it your belief that TM tried to punch a man that had a firearm already drawn? That is worse than bringing a knife to a gun fight. Why didn't GZ shoot TM prior to taking the beating if he was able to? The altercation seems to have lasted over a minute, that is a long time to take a beating, especially if you had the ability to end it much sooner.

BBM

In the dark, raining and a little black pistol that hides pretty well in your hand?

 

[ariesgodofwar]

They fell into the bushes?
That is how Zimmerman received the scratches?
Where are the scratches on Trayvon's body? Any scratches mentioned in his autopsy report?


No prints on the gun from TM should tell us there was no struggle for the gun as GZ claimed.
Could have been a struggle for the gun without TM ever putting a hand on it. IMO

The prints were inconclusive on the slide and non-existent elsewhere on the gun, except the grip which were confirmed GZ's, which is exactly where you would not expect to see TM's prints if there was a struggle. You grip the gun there, so GZ's hand would have been all over it, and no way for TM's fingerprints to be there, unless he won the struggle.

I do not see how inconclusive prints are exculpatory of a TM struggle for the pistol. I think it does not confirm nor deny, which is much different than no prints at all.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

So George broke his nose and received large contusions on his head from the bushes? The same broken nose that an officer of the law photographed at the scene, and the same contusions and lacerations noted in the responding officers report, as well as evidenced by the police department surveillance video, and an hour 1+ later when they police photographs were taken at the Sanford PD.

Just come out and say it, are you conjecturing that either the Police beat GZ up to "fake" the injuries he received, or that GZ began beating himself before the police arrived, or had one of the witnesses beat him up to make this look like self-defense? I guess I am not following you. You toss "unsubstantiated allegations" out there as if you are the Defense Attorney to introduce "reasonable doubt" to the veracity of GZ's claims and the evidence, however, in this case, it is the State which must prove them with specificity and beyond a reasonable doubt.

The scratches could have come from many things, possibly the bushes (note that TM did not have any noted scratches, so if they both fell into the bushes, I think you would expect to see some on him given the way GZ looked).

He ran into something in the dark and fell hitting his head on something and was laying on the ground alone when the 13yr old saw him.

 

[ariesgodofwar]

BBM

In the dark, raining and a little black pistol that hides pretty well in your hand?

Read my statement again. Why if GZ had his firearm drawn, and was at standoff distance with TM, would he allow TM to go toe to toe with him? Small and black or not, that would only have to do with TM's perception of the firearm. Most folks who draw down announce they have a firearm, as that is the point, a show of lethal force to gain compliance. No such announcement was attested to by anyone, and I think it defies logic that GZ would allow himself to be beat half to death with a firearm drawn and available, to yell help "20 times" as Witness #6 states, to ultimately then decide to finally use it. Does such a scenario make sense to you?

 

[ariesgodofwar]

He ran into something in the dark and fell hitting his head on something and was laying on the ground alone when the 13yr old saw him.

So he ran into something both breaking his nose, causing large contusions and 2 lacerations on the posterior of his head, and injuring his back, running from the same scene that Witnesses describe him still at immediately after the gunshot, and when the police arrived moments later?

Unless he ran into the middle of a gang initiation ritual after the shooting, I am completely perplexed what, at the scene, one could have run into in order to injure both the front and back of their head? It was dark, but not pitch black. As evidenced by witness testimony, colors could be seen, so not so dark that one could not see in front of themselves.

What do you suppose he ran into? Your statements seem like unsupported conjecture built upon unsupported conjecture.

 

[cityslick]

The responses in this thread only reinforces my position that the state must go out of it's way to show that TM was not beating up on GZ. You can't have TM beating GZ up and causing injuries and I'm seeing a lot of responses that are trying to explain away the injuries other than TM doing it.

A bush
A mailbox
A garbage can
Slipped and knocked head on something on the ground
The gun

This is a step back from a month ago, where we had no confirmation of injuries and it was determined he had no injuries based on a low grain police video.

 

[suzihawk]

So George broke his nose and received large contusions on his head from the bushes? The same broken nose that an officer of the law photographed at the scene, and the same contusions and lacerations noted in the responding officers report, as well as evidenced by the police department surveillance video, and an hour 1+ later when they police photographs were taken at the Sanford PD.

Just come out and say it, are you conjecturing that either the Police beat GZ up to "fake" the injuries he received, or that GZ began beating himself before the police arrived, or had one of the witnesses beat him up to make this look like self-defense? I guess I am not following you. You toss "unsubstantiated allegations" out there as if you are the Defense Attorney to introduce "reasonable doubt" to the veracity of GZ's claims and the evidence, however, in this case, it is the State which must prove them with specificity and beyond a reasonable doubt.

The scratches could have come from many things, possibly the bushes (note that TM did not have any noted scratches, so if they both fell into the bushes, I think you would expect to see some on him given the way GZ looked).

I neither said nor implied anything of the kind and would appreciate you not parsing my posts to imply otherwise.

Indeed, the scratches could have come from anything. As well as his other superficial injuries. He could have slipped in the wet grass and fell on something causing his injuries. I don't know and stated as much. However, I don't believe he got the injuries from a pummeling from Trayvon. The lack of injuries to Trayvon's hands bears this out, IMO.

This is a message board, not a court of law, and everyone is entitled to their opinions within the TOS outlined. I'm expressing my opinions, for what they're worth.

 

[Dr.Fessel]

So George broke his nose and received large contusions on his head from the bushes? The same broken nose that an officer of the law photographed at the scene, and the same contusions and lacerations noted in the responding officers report, as well as evidenced by the police department surveillance video, and an hour 1+ later when they police photographs were taken at the Sanford PD.

Just come out and say it, are you conjecturing that either the Police beat GZ up to "fake" the injuries he received, or that GZ began beating himself before the police arrived, or had one of the witnesses beat him up to make this look like self-defense? I guess I am not following you. You toss "unsubstantiated allegations" out there as if you are the Defense Attorney to introduce "reasonable doubt" to the veracity of GZ's claims and the evidence, however, in this case, it is the State which must prove them with specificity and beyond a reasonable doubt.

The scratches could have come from many things, possibly the bushes (note that TM did not have any noted scratches, so if they both fell into the bushes, I think you would expect to see some on him given the way GZ looked).

BBM

The pictures were taken 4 hours after the shooting.

The GSR test was done 4 hours after the shooting and I believe it was done after George had been allowed to go to the bathroom.

Page 20

http://www.scribd.com/doc/93951121/State-v-Zimmerman-Evidence-released-by-prosecutor

 

[suzihawk]

Read my statement again. Why if GZ had his firearm drawn, and was at standoff distance with TM, would he allow TM to go toe to toe with him? Small and black or not, that would only have to do with TM's perception of the firearm. Most folks who draw down announce they have a firearm, as that is the point, a show of lethal force to gain compliance. No such announcement was attested to by anyone, and I think it defies logic that GZ would allow himself to be beat half to death with a firearm drawn and available, to yell help "20 times" as Witness #6 states, to ultimately then decide to finally use it. Does such a scenario make sense to you?

That's an 'unsubstantiated allegation'. IMO

 

[suzihawk]

The responses in this thread only reinforces my position that the state must go out of it's way to show that TM was not beating up on GZ. You can't have TM beating GZ up and causing injuries and I'm seeing a lot of responses that are trying to explain away the injuries other than TM doing it.

A bush
A mailbox
A garbage can
Slipped and knocked head on something on the ground
The gun

This is a step back from a month ago, where we had no confirmation of injuries and it was determined he had no injuries based on a low grain police video.

How do you account for the lack of injuries on Trayvon's hands but for that one single 1/4" - 1/8" laceration?

 

[Dr.Fessel]

So he ran into something both breaking his nose, causing large contusions and 2 lacerations on the posterior of his head, and injuring his back, running from the same scene that Witnesses describe him still at immediately after the gunshot, and when the police arrived moments later?

Unless he ran into the middle of a gang initiation ritual after the shooting, I am completely perplexed what, at the scene, one could have run into in order to injure both the front and back of their head? It was dark, but not pitch black. As evidenced by witness testimony, colors could be seen, so not so dark that one could not see in front of themselves.

What do you suppose he ran into? Your statements seem like unsupported conjecture built upon unsupported conjecture.

What caused these marks that made him cry out in terror? A sap maybe? Something with a straight shaft and rounded end. Maybe hit twice?

 

[ariesgodofwar]

I neither said nor implied anything of the kind and would appreciate you not parsing my posts to imply otherwise.

Indeed, the scratches could have come from anything. As well as his other superficial injuries. He could have slipped in the wet grass and fell on something causing his injuries. I don't know and stated as much. However, I don't believe he got the injuries from a pummeling from Trayvon. The lack of injuries to Trayvon's hands bears this out, IMO.

This is a message board, not a court of law, and everyone is entitled to their opinions within the TOS outlined. I'm expressing my opinions, for what they're worth.

The portion of my comment you snippet has a question mark at the end for a reason. I am attempting to solicit an explanation from you of your opinion and how the material facts we now know are accounted for. I am not making this a court of law, I am just simply asking what you believe occurred indexed to the facts we know since you reject the readily explainable (Occam's Razor) and fail to put forth a comprehensive theory as to how the series of injuries to GZ and Trayvon's left hand all came to be. Things must be looked at in totality.

George could have slipped and fell, but that that square with, and account for all his injuries? Does that square with witness statements? For this forum to be useful and insightful, we need to stick to the facts and follow them where they lead. Many seem to willfully deny what is right in front of their face as a result of some sort of bias.

We now know eyewitnesses saw the altercation in process, eyewitnesses saw TM doing a Ground and Pound on GZ (MMA move), and we know that George's injuries were consistent with those events occurring, in the fashion, or a very similar fashion to what witnesses said occurred?

If we are going to dispute the veracity of every piece of evidence in this investigation, then there is really no point in discussing it, as it is a guarantee that all logic and discussion will be tainted with bias.

Just as if you are investigating a case, you cannot just disregard or explain away evidence that does not support what you think happened. You must take it and let it enlighten and inform your understanding of events.

To dispute every piece of evidence is just a waste of time, unless you can materially source the dispute to something other than "I think" or IMO.

 

[cityslick]

How do you account for the lack of injuries on Trayvon's hands but for that one single 1/4" - 1/8" laceration?

You don't need to necessarily be sustaining injuries while you are hitting someone.

The fight didn't last that long, it could of just been a matter of a few punches before the shot rang out.

Trust me, if TM did have injuries, wouldn't the argument be that GZ was beating the hell out of TM and then shot him to finish him off? You can't have it both ways.