The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[UKGuy]

Now after all that, my point is that we can only guess where the underwear was located. An educated guess puts them in the WC, but that's only a guess. It's not fact.

My next guess is that the package was not left in the WC. It may have been left somewhere in the basement. They wouldn't be on the 1st floor because...reasons. JB's bedroom would have been thoroughly searched, but they could have been left there. MR's room or JAR's room. They couldn't have been left in a focus of the crime scene and some place so mundane they would have been overlooked. Of course, if the evidence of where they were located was withheld, finding them on the 3rd floor would be something of a smoking gun.

BoldBear,
If you believe Patsy's tale about purchasing the size-12 Bloomingdales and having them delivered via FAO Swartz, then yes they were available for an inquisitive BR to inspect on Christmas Day afternoon.

Come midnight on Christmas Day the size-12's would be lying there waiting for someone to use them. So why had Patsy not mailed them to Jenny, or placed them in her bin bags for the vacation trip?

Its possible Patsy's tale regarding the size-12's was fabricated since little of it can be substantiated. What would be interesting is to know what brand the rest of JonBenet's underwear was, maybe there was no Bloomingdales, causing the origin of the size-12's to be questioned.

Nobody, but nobody, has ever commented on the Brand or Days of The Week of the underwear taken from JonBenet's underwear drawer.

Personally I reckon the remaining size-12's went the same was as her size-6 underwear and pajama bottoms!


.

 

[midwest mama]

Now after all that, my point is that we can only guess where the underwear was located. An educated guess puts them in the WC, but that's only a guess. It's not fact.

My next guess is that the package was not left in the WC. It may have been left somewhere in the basement. They wouldn't be on the 1st floor because...reasons. JB's bedroom would have been thoroughly searched, but they could have been left there. MR's room or JAR's room. They couldn't have been left in a focus of the crime scene and some place so mundane they would have been overlooked. Of course, if the evidence of where they were located was withheld, finding them on the 3rd floor would be something of a smoking gun.

Maybe the package was tucked somewhere into that golf bag JR was so worried about having in Atlanta for his winter golf outings, which would give him a chance to unwind from all the tedious police and legal appointments going on right after his daughter had been murdered.

 

[reintarnation]

Maybe the package was tucked somewhere into that golf bag JR was so worried about having in Atlanta for his winter golf outings, which would give him a chance to unwind from all the tedious police and legal appointments going on right after his daughter had been murdered.

This is an excellent point! It probably would have fit in there and provides more sensible reasoning for JR wanting those clubs.

When it comes to us wondering where something was or why police didn't collect something at the time, we have to remember the frustrating investigative elements. JR had several hours to make evidence disappear between the time LE arrived post-911 call and when he discovered JBR's body (since a thorough search of the home was not conducted yet). No one could account for his whereabouts during some of that time. And of course he discovered JBR's body. So if we believe he participated in staging the crime scene, then he had ample opportunities to touch things up prior to 'finding' her body.

Also, people were allowed back in the home in the days afterward - while the home was still an active crime scene - to remove items that amounted to far more than a few changes of clothing and personal care items. The underwear package might have been on the list PR and/or JR provided for this purpose if they knew where they were stashed and that they were material to the crime.

IMO, there is no way that the package of panties, from which the pair JBR was wearing came, would not have been collected as evidence. LE obviously attached significance to it, although at what point that happened I can't say (in time enough to get a search warrant before the house was emptied?). We know for a fact that they were removed from the house in order for them to travel to their home in Atlanta and were later returned once they were discovered by a third party (need the source for this, but IIRC, Ramseys did NOT mail the package to BPD or BDA themselves).

Following that logic, the only reason to remove the package is to confound the origin of the panties JBR wore, but then, why would PR admit to buying them? LE couldn't get the warrants to search credit card and bank account statements, which Team Ramsey knew. So why go to the trouble of removing the package just to admit ownership anyway?

I am curious what happened to the rest of JBR's belongings, in particular her other underwear. If everything was saved, then it wouldn't be quite so strange for them to keep that package. But if everything else was trashed, it would be extremely odd. The fact that they hung on to a package of unused underwear at all is pretty weird. Can anyone recall when the package was located and mailed to BPD and/or BDA? I believe the details are in Thomas's book...I'll look it up when I get the chance if someone doesn't answer sooner (don't have it with me).

These darn panties keep raising more questions the more I think about them, especially now that I'm thinking about how they were handled post-crime!

 

[UKGuy]

That possibility has occurred to me.



How do we know the drawer was full of her usual underwear? Maybe the size 12's were the only clean ones.



Yeah, it's suspect. But what does it tell us?

SuperDave,

How do we know the drawer was full of her usual underwear? Maybe the size 12's were the only clean ones.

Clean were not necessary, a correct already worn size-6 pair would do just fine, we are staging a crime-scene not visiting the Vatican.

Yeah, it's suspect. But what does it tell us?

1. Patsy was ignorant regarding the size-12's
2. Another R was willing to see her fall under a bus.
3. The underwear issue is important, since LEA are so tight lipped.
4. The size-12's might have been delivered by a third party?


.

 

[UKGuy]

reintarnation,
From memory, always a suspect source, a Ramsey legal representative handed them over to BPD.


.

 

[reintarnation]

reintarnation,
From memory, always a suspect source, a Ramsey legal representative handed them over to BPD.


.

Did some searching and only found references to this in forums without any concrete source of the information. Not that there isn't one, but I didn't locate it. What I was remembering and found was that movers came across the package and at that point they were turned in.

 

[BBB167893]

SuperDave,

Clean were not necessary, a correct already worn size-6 pair would do just fine, we are staging a crime-scene not visiting the Vatican.

That's funny. Like I said, a man's mistake.

1. Patsy was ignorant regarding the size-12's
2. Another R was willing to see her fall under a bus.
3. The underwear issue is important, since LEA are so tight lipped.
4. The size-12's might have been delivered by a third party?

I can see 1 and 2 for sure. 3 is also likely. But who might the third party be?
.[/QUOTE]

 

[BoldBear]

Sorry to bring-up the underwear after the crime. It does bring-up questions. I don't think they needed to be smuggled out of the house. They were simply packed-up when the Ramseys moved. The simplest answer is that the were overlooked by LE. The Ramseys had a lot of stuff and lots of shelves and storage. LE thought this was a slam-dunk so they were lazy. Had they known how complicated it would become, they would have accepted more help by the FBI and the Denver investigators. They would have been more careful.

I don't have a problem with Patsy's story about purchasing the underwear either. How does this become an issue of trying to trip-up Patsy in a lie? Patsy forgot so many things in the house and many of the things she purchased. If she would have said, "I don't remember," it wouldn't have been a problem. If she did remember purchasing the underwear, it doesn't implicate her. And if the package had never been found, I don't see how it would have changed anything.

It's funny that the golf bag was brought-up. I used to wonder what could have been in the golf bag. What had been stuffed down at the bottom of it? The tape? The rope? Unfinished practice notes? JB's missing clothing? And now the underwear package. If the underwear package was smuggled out of the golf bag, that package would have been thrown away. No one would have found it years later because the person who staged the crime would have disposed of the evidence.

If there was anything in that golf bag, it wouldn't have been kept for police to find.

I never think of a bathroom drawer as a place to keep underwear. For that reason, I don't think the person who dressed her was intimately familiar with her room. We know that Kolar described fecal matter where it was found. JB didn't put her underwear back in the drawer after it had been used. It was left on her bathroom or bedroom floor for LHP to pick-up. Her underwear in the drawer was stained but that doesn't mean it was dirty. She was 6. She had poor wiping habits but would have grown out of that. It's too bad we all know those details and too bad she wasn't able to outgrow it.

 

[zencompass]

If the golf bag was chosen to hide the missing clothing then it was a clever move because searching a golf bag would have been the last place the police would look.

Unfortunately the police allowed items to be taken from the house without thoroughly checking them but then again why check a golf bag?

The more I learn about this case the more questions I have.

You are absolutely right BoldBear - the underwear is a mystery!

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

I'm just going to jump in here.

It's my personal opinion that there was never a pack of Bloomies. I think that there was only one pair left by another child and the one to redress her (JR) just grabbed them from the laundry room or clothes pile. It also makes sense that the DNA found on said panties could be attributed to this.

1) LE found receipts for the HiTech boots but I haven't read anything saying there's one for the Bloomies.
2) Patsy didn't seem to know how to answer the question. Leading me to believe that she didn't know where they came from.
3) Bloomies come in a zippered bag. The zipper is attached to the package by a plastic loop that has to be cut and removed before one can open the bag. Patsy said that JBR opened them. The question is how did a 6 year old child cut that loop off? She didn't, there was never a package of Bloomies.
4) No other size 12-14 pair of panties was ever found in that house.
5) The movers found them years later (never happened) and LW turned them over to LE. Personally I don't buy it. It seems more to me, a loose end PR had to tie into the rest of her narrative.

I truly don't believe that package of Bloomies ever existed in that house. MOO!

 

[Teresa]

I've been thinking about the bloomies. My question is were any 12/14 bloomies found in JonBenets underwear drawer? How about the dirty laundry? I'm thinking no. Patsy had planned on sending the bloomies to her niece as a gift for Christmas. The panties were special and novel for a gift. Another question, did JonBenet have her size 4/6 bloomiesn in her drawer? I'm guessing she wore the Wednesday pair to the Whites party. Patsy lied about the bloomies..only one reason I think.

 

[Dynamic88]

I've been thinking about the bloomies. My question is were any 12/14 bloomies found in JonBenets underwear drawer? How about the dirty laundry? I'm thinking no. Patsy had planned on sending the bloomies to her niece as a gift for Christmas. The panties were special and novel for a gift. Another question, did JonBenet have her size 4/6 bloomiesn in her drawer? I'm guessing she wore the Wednesday pair to the Whites party. Patsy lied about the bloomies..only one reason I think.

The evidence lists do not indicate the size of underwear taken by police. So, technically, we don't know if size 12/14 bloomies were in her drawer or not. However, and this is jmo, if 12/14s had been found there would be little need for the police to ask about where the size 12/14s came from (e.g. Patsy buying them for her niece when shopping in NY) It's the lack of other 12/14s that makes it necessary to figure out whether or not an "intruder" put them on her. Then again, they might ask anyway, even if others were found, just due to the size issue.

I think we can assume most of the underwear taken into evidence was 4/6.

She might have worn the 12/14s to the party. We know one (or more) Ramseys were involved in the crime. It's hard to see why any of them would bother putting 12/14s on the body. If she had them on all along then she was "redressed" in them in the most literal sense - they were removed for the infliction of vaginal trauma, then put back on. But there should be other 12/14s around. Whether or not any others were found isn't known. We can only guess.

Patsy claims 12/14s were placed in JBR's drawer for her to wear at will. She says this at a time when she knows the police have already searched the house and she knows whether or not they could have found 12/14s in the drawer. I don't see a reason to lie under these circumstances. If there were never 12/14s in the drawer the police would know Patsy was lying, and Pasty would know that the police know. I'm inclined to believe Patsy on this issue. So I think it's probable that 12/14s were in the drawer and were found by police, though it's not provable.

So I agree with you that there's a good chance she wore them to the party, or put them on sometime during the night.

JMO.

 

[UKGuy]

The evidence lists do not indicate the size of underwear taken by police. So, technically, we don't know if size 12/14 bloomies were in her drawer or not. However, and this is jmo, if 12/14s had been found there would be little need for the police to ask about where the size 12/14s came from (e.g. Patsy buying them for her niece when shopping in NY) It's the lack of other 12/14s that makes it necessary to figure out whether or not an "intruder" put them on her. Then again, they might ask anyway, even if others were found, just due to the size issue.

I think we can assume most of the underwear taken into evidence was 4/6.

She might have worn the 12/14s to the party. We know one (or more) Ramseys were involved in the crime. It's hard to see why any of them would bother putting 12/14s on the body. If she had them on all along then she was "redressed" in them in the most literal sense - they were removed for the infliction of vaginal trauma, then put back on. But there should be other 12/14s around. Whether or not any others were found isn't known. We can only guess.

Patsy claims 12/14s were placed in JBR's drawer for her to wear at will. She says this at a time when she knows the police have already searched the house and she knows whether or not they could have found 12/14s in the drawer. I don't see a reason to lie under these circumstances. If there were never 12/14s in the drawer the police would know Patsy was lying, and Pasty would know that the police know. I'm inclined to believe Patsy on this issue. So I think it's probable that 12/14s were in the drawer and were found by police, though it's not provable.

So I agree with you that there's a good chance she wore them to the party, or put them on sometime during the night.

JMO.

Dynamic88,
BBM: Yes we do, when being interviewed and after telling the interviewers that she (Patsy) placed the size-12 underwear in JonBenet's underwear drawer for her to use. The interviewer told Patsy no size-12 underwear was found in JonBenet's underwear drawer.

The Ramsey house was turned over for the remaining size-12's and none were found, that's why the R's had to find them later stuffed in a mythical packing crate, hey one we never opened!

Who was Patsy lying for and why?

.

 

[UKGuy]

That's funny. Like I said, a man's mistake.




I can see 1 and 2 for sure. 3 is also likely. But who might the third party be?

SuperDave,
Who knows, someone the R's phoned for help? Patsy appears to invent the size-12's purchase saga as she is being interviewed?

So did she really purchase a pack of size-12's at Bloomingdales or is that just a tale she knew she could get away with, similar to buying something at last Sunday's flea-market?

Assuming the negative, If Patsy knew nothing about the size-12's, other than they needed to be explained, then either they belonged to JR, BR or some third party.

Considering that a third party yields more questions than answers, so applying occam, it looks like BR or JR owned the size-12's?

.

 

[reintarnation]

For those of you thinking that JR/BR owned the panties and PR had to invent a story about them:

1. Why would JR or BR own them? Does it imply premeditation for the murder?

2. This would mean the panties were definitely not among the wrapped Christmas gifts in the basement. What is the alternative explanation for the partially unwrapped presents in the basement if not PR searching for the package of clean panties?

TIA for your responses! I am always surprised to find myself reconsidering evidence that I've already thought about so thoroughly. That's exactly why these forums are so great!

 

[UKGuy]

For those of you thinking that JR/BR owned the panties and PR had to invent a story about them:

1. Why would JR or BR own them? Does it imply premeditation for the murder?

2. This would mean the panties were definitely not among the wrapped Christmas gifts in the basement. What is the alternative explanation for the partially unwrapped presents in the basement if not PR searching for the package of clean panties?

TIA for your responses! I am always surprised to find myself reconsidering evidence that I've already thought about so thoroughly. That's exactly why these forums are so great!

reintarnation,

1. Nope, possibly just some fetish for female underwear, consider the Dr Seuss book and inappropriate photographs dumped in the basement could there be a connection?

2. BR caused the partially opened gifts, since Kolar says he opened them Christmas Day afternoon. Why would Patsy wrap some gifts and not name-tag them, left unwrapped as delivered, to be dealt with after the vacation makes sense to me?

.

 

[Dynamic88]

Dynamic88,
BBM: Yes we do, when being interviewed and after telling the interviewers that she (Patsy) placed the size-12 underwear in JonBenet's underwear drawer for her to use. The interviewer told Patsy no size-12 underwear was found in JonBenet's underwear drawer.

The Ramsey house was turned over for the remaining size-12's and none were found, that's why the R's had to find them later stuffed in a mythical packing crate, hey one we never opened!

Who was Patsy lying for and why?

.

OK, if we take the interviewer's comment as gospel, then we know that no 12/14s were found. But the interviewer doesn't have to tell the truth, and the evidence list doesn't specify sizes. So, what to make of it all? If you want to take the interviewer's word for it that's fine, I can't really argue with that. But Patsy's story about putting the size 12s in the drawer makes no sense given that she had ample time to prepare answers (all questions submitted in writing ahead of time) In short, she knows whether or not the police would have found 12s in the drawer. It seems odd, at least to me, that she'd lie under those circumstances. It would have made more sense for her to simply deny any knowledge of the size 12s and leave it at that. Why tell a lie knowing as you tell it that you'll be caught out?

So, if we take the statement of the interviewer at face value and at the same time Patsy is telling the truth about putting them in the drawer, then someone must have taken the whole package out of the drawer.

I don't have a lot of confidence that the BPD conducted a thorough search of the premises or that the carefully itemized everything taken out by Pam Paugh.

The bottom line for me is that Patsy's "lie" makes no sense given that she has prior knowledge of what could or could not be found in the drawer.

 

[Dynamic88]

SuperDave,
Who knows, someone the R's phoned for help? Patsy appears to invent the size-12's purchase saga as she is being interviewed?

So did she really purchase a pack of size-12's at Bloomingdales or is that just a tale she knew she could get away with, similar to buying something at last Sunday's flea-market?

Assuming the negative, If Patsy knew nothing about the size-12's, other than they needed to be explained, then either they belonged to JR, BR or some third party.

Considering that a third party yields more questions than answers, so applying occam, it looks like BR or JR owned the size-12's?

.

The shopping story is probably true because a) if it were not then there is no reason for Patsy to supply any answer as to their origin, and b) there were other women on the shopping trip who may have been able to confirm that Patsy bought Bloomies.

So, it looks to me like the 12s were bought for Jenny. That means there there should be at least one package of 12s somewhere in the house, or a corresponding number of loose panties.
If it's true that no other 12s were found then someone disposed of the remaining 12s, or smuggled them out w/o the police knowing.

 

[UKGuy]

The shopping story is probably true because a) if it were not then there is no reason for Patsy to supply any answer as to their origin, and b) there were other women on the shopping trip who may have been able to confirm that Patsy bought Bloomies.

So, it looks to me like the 12s were bought for Jenny. That means there there should be at least one package of 12s somewhere in the house, or a corresponding number of loose panties.
If it's true that no other 12s were found then someone disposed of the remaining 12s, or smuggled them out w/o the police knowing.

Dynamic88,

Patsy Atlanta Interview, Excerpt

11 Q. Where was it that you became

12 aware that this was -- where was it that it

13 was made a big deal? What was the source

14 of your information that Bloomingdale's

15 panties somehow were significant that made

16 you then say, wait a second, did I ever buy

17 those?

18 MR. WOOD: Do you have a precise

19 recollection of that event occurring where

20 all of a sudden something happened and you

21 decided it was some big deal?

22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I

23 mean, my first thought is something in the

24 tabloids, but, you know, they get everything

25 wrong, so --

0093

1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you

2 aware that these were the size of panties

3 that she was wearing, and this has been

4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they

5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of

6 that?

7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.

8 Q. And how did you become aware of

9 that?

10 A. Something I read, I am sure.

11 Q. And I will just state a fact

12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties

13 taken out of, by the police, out of

14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is

15 that where she kept -

16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).

17 Q. -- where you were describing that

18 they were just put in that drawer?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was

21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

So Patsy is told no size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer, read it all here:http://www.acandyrose.com/2000ATL-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

Patsy probably knows or guesses Burke or John redressed JonBenet in the size-12's, as she read about the size-12's in one of the tabloids, so she has to invent some legend to account for the size-12's?

.

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

But then we have to ask ourselves, what need did Patsy have to turn in the package of Bloomi's sans the Wednsday pair if LE had already found them in the drawer or the basement? This alone says LE never found them in the house.