The wait for closing arguments discussion thread

[Sillybilly]

(RSBM) ... The witness notified LE that she was in the school parking lot after seeing the CASS video and talked to them two days later. She was probably nervous as heck. I'm guessing LE asked her what she saw. She answered she saw a woman in a white jacket on school property and then the same woman walking up Fyfe with a happy little girl - just like in the video. Describes the woman's clothing. Tells them she thought the woman was the child's mother. LE thinks, "Ah! TM, as we suspected!". Thank you, Mrs. X. That will be all ...

<rsbm & bbm>

Re the bbm, it is my understanding that in her April 11 interview (2 days after the video was released to the public on April 9), the witness did NOT mention seeing the woman enter the school as you mentioned above, only in her May 26(?) interview. IMO, that is highly unusual, when asked what she saw, that she would not recall such a significant detail. May 26 was so long after the fact, her secondary recollection of that day could have been coloured by other factors.

Alternate scenario ... witness tells LE she thought the woman was the child's mother. LE says "Do you know the child's mother personally?" Witness says "No". LE asks "Have you seen the child's mother on TV?" Witness answers either "Yes" or "No", but with either response, LE asks "Why do you believe it is the child's mother in the video?" Witness ... "I assumed because she was walking with the child." "Is there anything else you recall that is important?" Witness doesn't recall anything else. Then ... "Thank you Mrs. X, that will be all".

So, without positive identification of the unknown woman, LE knows that even they can't tell who the woman in the video is for sure, and all the public speculation surrounded either TM or her friend (sorry, can't recall name). They do not have any further questions because this woman has not been able to provide them anything more definitive than any other person or investigative technique has been able to. They are left with what they started with ... a video of an unidentified woman walking away with Tori.

I absolutely believe this woman is genuine with no agenda other than truth and justice for a beautiful young girl. I have nothing but total respect for her coming forward with what she believes can help the investigation. I just don't think it was very helpful to LE at the time (other than the witness saw what we all saw on video and made the same assumption that many of general population did), and her additional recall took long enough that I feel there were other factors (time, media, possible trauma) affecting her memory during the 7 week period April 8 to May 26.

On another note, i'm a bit puzzled by the reference to the "no makeup". Pics we've seen of TLM before her arrest all seem to indicate she wore makeup. Pics of TM were/are generally without makeup. I'm not sure I would be able to tell if someone was wearing makeup unless they were within about 10 feet of me.

Oh, in one of my earlier posts, I thought the witness saw TLM to her right, but I've since read that it was to her left ... so across the street while TLM and Tori were still on the west side of Fyfe.

JMO ... as convoluted as it may read

 

[Alison]

Doea anyone know if after everything is said and done, is the jury offered the opportunity to seek out therapy funded by our government? I find much of what we have heard quite disturbing (especially TLM's testimony; I had a nightmare after hearing it) now add visuals such as the autopsy pictures, I could imagine it could be quite traumatizing to the jury. So I am wondering if they assist them in dealing with any post traumatic stress after such cases.

 

[myzzy]

Snipped for berivity,
there is a difference between a methadone user and a "meth head". A meth head is a crystal meth user.... BIG difference between the two. This is not the first time I have seen someome make this mistake between the two. Someone described crystal meth signs and symptoms earlier as Oxy signs and symptoms.
People using methadone are not actually getting high, it is something they use to negate withdrawl sypmtoms because opiate abuse can cause serious illness and or even death.
People using methadone are typically trying to stay clean and I must reinforce not high after they have their "drink".
http://www.camh.net/Care_Treatment/...aintenance_Treatment/mmt_clienthndbk_ch1.html

I do not judge drug users. Many people abuse drugs and alcohol for many various reasons. Sometimes it is to self medicate, sometimes it is to hide from pain.
People speak of TM being charged after VS's murder. Well all I can say is if something happened to one of my children I am not sure how I would pull through. Would I abuse drugs or alcohol? I am not sure. Would I be more like RS and try to promote awareness? I sure hope I would. However we can not judge as we are not these people who abuse and use these substances because we have not walked a mile in their shoes.

I agree with everything you stated, Everyone is different and some are good people who are on a rocky road, while others are just looking for the fix or the people who are there trying to get help to kick their drug addictions.

But that does not change how i feel when i'm near the clinic, call it profiling but when i get the "hold my purse tight, walk to the side dont make eye contact" vibe because of the congregation of people at the meth clinic, Normal people at the doctors office getting their meds dont do this to me, why?

 

[Tahorn]

I disagree, <modsnip> and this is the way these kids roll. You don't earn status by beating up/targeting the weak, the old, the young or females.

I do understand though what you mean when they act within gangs and do not take into consideration those who may be injured while going after a target. Collateral damage at it's worst.

I do agree, with exceptions ... Could be why she regrets VS being so young.

 

[tmhco]

I am just glad its not just me again with the triple posts lololol

Me too! I was able to delete them though. I felt like a spammer!

 

[justicefortori]

Doea anyone know if after everything is said and done, is the jury offered the opportunity to seek out therapy funded by our government? I find much of what we have heard quite disturbing (especially TLM's testimony; I had a nightmare after hearing it) now add visuals such as the autopsy pictures, I could imagine it could be quite traumatizing to the jury. So I am wondering if they assist them in dealing with any post traumatic stress after such cases.

I believe they do fund therapy for the jurors if needed. Not 100% certain though.

 

[Alethea Dice]

<rsbm & bbm>

Re the bbm, it is my understanding that in her April 11 interview (2 days after the video was released to the public on April 9), the witness did NOT mention seeing the woman enter the school as you mentioned above, only in her May 26(?) interview. IMO, that is highly unusual, when asked what she saw, that she would not recall such a significant detail. May 26 was so long after the fact, her secondary recollection of that day could have been coloured by other factors.

Alternate scenario ... witness tells LE she thought the woman was the child's mother. LE says "Do you know the child's mother personally?" Witness says "No". LE asks "Have you seen the child's mother on TV?" Witness answers either "Yes" or "No", but with either response, LE asks "Why do you believe it is the child's mother in the video?" Witness ... "I assumed because she was walking with the child." "Is there anything else you recall that is important?" Witness doesn't recall anything else. Then ... "Thank you Mrs. X, that will be all".

So, without positive identification of the unknown woman, LE knows that even they can't tell who the woman in the video is for sure, and all the public speculation surrounded either TM or her friend (sorry, can't recall name). They do not have any further questions because this woman has not been able to provide them anything more definitive than any other person or investigative technique has been able to. They are left with what they started with ... a video of an unidentified woman walking away with Tori.

I absolutely believe this woman is genuine with no agenda other than truth and justice for a beautiful young girl. I have nothing but total respect for her coming forward with what she believes can help the investigation. I just don't think it was very helpful to LE at the time (other than the witness saw what we all saw on video and made the same assumption that many of general population did), and her additional recall took long enough that I feel there were other factors (time, media, possible trauma) affecting her memory during the 7 week period April 8 to May 26.

On another note, i'm a bit puzzled by the reference to the "no makeup". Pics we've seen of TLM before her arrest all seem to indicate she wore makeup. Pics of TM were/are generally without makeup. I'm not sure I would be able to tell if someone was wearing makeup unless they were within about 10 feet of me.

Oh, in one of my earlier posts, I thought the witness saw TLM to her right, but I've since read that it was to her left ... so across the street while TLM and Tori were still on the west side of Fyfe.

JMO ... as convoluted as it may read

I got the impression from the trial tweets that the witness assumed the woman was the child's mother because of the way that Tori was acting with her.

James Armstrong@jamesarmstrong7R&#8203;eply
Witness says she assumed the woman was the child's mother

James Armstrong@jamesarmstrong7R&#8203;eply
Witness says girl was "like any school child coming out f school. Just talking and smiling and laughing"

I believe the "no make-up" comment was third hand information and not mentioned in any of the tweets or anywhere in MSM, so I'm not sure how much credence I would give it. Since the witness stated that she only got a side profile of the woman, it would be very hard to determine whether she had make-up on or not IMO.

 

[Alison]

I agree with everything you stated, Everyone is different and some are good people who are on a rocky road, while others are just looking for the fix or the people who are there trying to get help to kick their drug addictions.

But that does not change how i feel when i'm near the clinic, call it profiling but when i get the "hold my purse tight, walk to the side dont make eye contact" vibe because of the congregation of people at the meth clinic, Normal people at the doctors office getting their meds dont do this to me, why?

I understand why you feel this way. I try not to judge others who use but that does not mean I trust them . You are correct in being leary. I just wanted to clarify meth heads vs methadone users

 

[tmhco]

Just saw this tweet. Closing delayed?

Mark Carcasole (@MarkCarc1010)
5/3/12 3:27 PM
Judge & lawyers in #Rafferty trial push start of closing arguments till Mon. Need more time to deal w/ legal issues beforehand.

 

[Yody04]

Maybe I am not the only one that doesn't really know what a closing argument is. Everything that has to do with Court is totally new to me.
I liked this link
http://www.ehow.com/how_2140162_prepare-closing-arguments.html

now I know at least somewhat what to expect tomorrow.

 

[Mystic]

Snipped by me

I know how lucrative the drug business is and when MR picked up the bag of pills off of BA that day, I instantly knew how much cash he could make from his cheap pick up. He also had note in his car asking to leave money for drugs. He was dealing, it was obvious. He was using. The jail informants detailed how many drugs he claimed to need each day. He was calling dates while on his way to the murder scene and back from the murder of Tori to set up a sexual encounter with a gf within 24 hours. There were drugs involved in this crime, no drug debt that I could tell. MR got one of the best drug DEALS ever on cheap drugs that day. He also got the best DEAL from TLM for a little girl for him to rape. Remember:" You know I'm going to f her right?" Why not believe that part of her story? She claimed to kill Tori with the hammer. People will believe that but not this part of her story? Why not? As soon as the arrests were made public, there were media stories out that revealed the INTENT of the crime: SEXUAL. These stories were pulled right away. No one has forgotten about this already, have they? I have been following this story and every minute detail of it from the very first day the news reported TS missing. That included every ridiculous theory and rumour that sparked from there on FB, etc. I chose WS out of other possible places to post and to follow this story. The one and only theory that worked ever was that Tori was taken for sexual purposes. I am confident this will be the determination of the court as well. JMO

Excellent post Matou

 

[Yody04]

Just saw this tweet. Closing delayed?

Mark Carcasole (@MarkCarc1010)
5/3/12 3:27 PM
Judge & lawyers in #Rafferty trial push start of closing arguments till Mon. Need more time to deal w/ legal issues beforehand.

You gotta be kidding

 

[Macright]

It is fact that Tori's mother was unemployed before she was abducted and remains unemployed. It is factual and not to be taken offensively. This affords her the opportunity to attend court every day to seek justice for her daughter. Where is the problem with stating such facts? My original post said EVERYONE ATTENDING COURT DAILY, not just Tara because who else can leave their job for two months to watch a trial? This comment was concurrent with a suggestion as to why Rafferty's family has not been present every day. JMO

I understood your post exactly how you stated it originally and found nothing wrong with stating a fact..JMO...

 

[Hello_Kitty]

AM980.ca &#8207; @AM980_Court
Jurors will return to the London Court House on Monday at 10 am. Crown closing arguments Tuesday, jury charge on Wednesday.

 

[Macright]

You gotta be kidding

thanks for the info...I think this is much better for the defence because then there will be no two day break between their closing and the crown's.. makes perfect sense to me...JMO


sorry my thanks should be for Tmhco...but thanks to you also....

 

[swedie]

I do agree that it appears not so straightforward.

I remember when TS initially went missing. I am sure many mothers across the country thought as I did; if she was abducted and there is a man involved..it can only mean one thing. TS was abducted for nefarious and or sexual purposes. Meaning rape/possibly other cash related sexual purposes, and that she was murdered after the fruitcake had his way. If it couldn't get any worse it turns out the abductors were also sadistic. Without a doubt, a parent's worst nightmare.

Sadly, as the information pooled in. The worst case scenario presented.

a. a man involved
b. a hammer involved
c. evidence of rape
d. the woman to lead her away
e. TS found with her pants gone, brutally murdered, disposed of in a rock pile in garbage bags

A miracle really, in a case such as this, that the perpetrators were found to be prosecuted let alone TS battered body. Not only were the perpetrators found but

a. law inforcement had evidence, video, blood, semen
b. a confession from one of the participants
c. perpetrators with some strange proclivities
d. a partial confession from defense that one perpetrator was at the scene; because the evidence prooved he was.

IF there were no drug use by any one mentioned in this case. What would you think happened to TS. Drug use and addiction is common. In murders such as this....it IS the guy that lives around the corner...it IS the guy in your community. It is the guy that you may have brushed by at the grocery store or the bar or who carries the crossing guard sign or knows someone you bought drugs from. And as LE will tell you, it is also the drifter, the drug user/seller, unemployed fellow who still lives with mom who lives a secret and malevolent life of fantasy, grandeur, irresponsibility and depravity. These are not my words. They are from the years of profiles done on sadistic rapist child killers. A rare breed, TS suffered a rare and horrendous fate. I trust LE, I trust the crown. MOO

Sadistic. It wasn't enough for these two what was in their environment, their hand, rocks, a piece of wood. These two had to stop and pick up a hammer. A hammer!

No Chris Evans from dateline was not there that day to video tape the two, nor was Christie Blanchford there to take meticulous notes, nor was Swedie in the back seat (lordy wishes she was). I am not sure what type of evidence the nay sayers of the crown are looking for. MOO

We wouldn't be here having this discussion if I had been present. I would have never allowed Tori or any other innocent little child to walk off with TLM. Should I have been in MR's back seat with Tori, I would've use the hammer on TLM and MR myself and faced the consequences later. MOO. There are too many evil predators preying on innocent and vulnerable children and it's time to start standing up and taking notice and speaking out if you notice something is amiss or "just not right".

Justice is just around the corner precious Tori! Sadly nothing can bring you back but those responsible will be dealt with accordingly. MOO

 

[Mystic]

The only thing that is glaringly missing here for me is the background information on Michael Thomas CS Rafferty. This man did not just turn up on April 8, 2009. IMO he planned and manipulated the abduction, rape and murder of an innocent child. And he found the perfect "dupe" to help him carry it out. It has been aluded to that his attorney was able to successfully argue some possibly pertinent information be excluded from this trial and the eyes of the jury. I will never understand this but it is our justice system and we have to adapt to it. He did not testify in his own defense likely to keep this information from the jury. Why? I am anticipating reading about these legal arguments when the jury goes into deliberations but we still will not likely have a full picture of who this man really is. I do not believe that he hasn't done something to some child at some point prior to this.

This drug debt theory is desperate at best to try and excuse his behaviour and shift all of the blame to his accomplice IMO. CM was an aging and sickly ex stripper who had a prescription for Oxycontin because of her medical problems. She obviously sold off some of that prescription to people she trusted to help make ends meet and probably to help fuel her addiction to alcohol, but to suggest that she was a low level "dealer" in the drug trade is ridiculous to me. I understand that JG may have visited her on several occasions after this abduction, so obviously she didn't have a problem with him if that is the case.

I am confident that LE have backed up as much of TLM's story as they possibly could considering that MR was out and about destroying evidence from the very first moments after this crime and for the next six weeks until his arrest. His refusal to assist LE in any way to help solve this crime 3 years ago and get to the "truth" indicates to me that he is 100 percent involved and just as guilty as his co-conspirator in the end result. But personally, I believe he is more at fault for it happening in the first place. If TLM really wanted to "grab someone off the street and kill them", she had plenty of opportunity to do that all on her own. She didn't need him. If MR wanted to rape a child, he needed someone to help lure one. Unfortunately he found someone who would do anything for a little bit of love.

MOO

another excellent post

bbm TLM was used, just like the other one that loaded up his account imo
I've always thought TLM was a victim as well as a predator. She was a victim in childhood that skewed her to the degree that she was prime to be prone to do anything for 'that little bit of love'. I read posts about her rage, journalling and past actions... they just don't make me think that she was out to get or kill a child... this was MR's plan and she went along with it. That is why I believe she attempted to assist LE in finding Tori as well as not go to trial, then take the blame for it all (for MR to get off lighter). My ideas may not be popular but they are my opinion. TLM is where she needs to be but I don't think she is a socialpath yet MR surely 'IS' imo.

 

[swedie]

You might be right. And why a hammer, I guess we know that from TLM's violent visions.
Another thing I don't get is the knife. Why just getting rid of the blade and not the whole thing like the hammer? And why did he keep a hammer and garbage bags in his car even that this ones didn't have anything to do with the crime? Was he really so naive to think he is never getting caught? Did he already plan something new? Does anybody understand what I am talking about? Everyday just more and more questions.

IMO I don't think that was "the" knife used to cut the backseat. I believe there were two of them and the one TLM used was thrown out. I also believe MR deliberately put that hammer in the trunk "just in case" LE wanted to search his car. MR thought he would be able to throw LE off with having the hammer in his trunk. He wanted it to look like if TLM did spill the beans, he could show he had a hammer in the trunk which did not have any telling evidence on it. MR wasn't the swiftest criminal. MOO

 

[swedie]

Understandable, but as a parent who believed my child was innocent, I would sell my house and virtually become homeless in my efforts to see my child set free. I would risk everything to ensure that my child was not wrongfully convicted. Also taking a day off here or there I am sure would be allowed by their employer,considering the circumstances, so IMO being employed is not a reasonable excuse for not even once appearing in court.

Oh course unless a mother has washed her hands of her adult child. We do not know what some parents in these type of situations know and believe. These people also become victims sadly, JMHO.

 

[justicefortori]

Im sorry, but what???

JG visited CM after the abduction?

(in response to somebodys post, just cant find it now)