Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #5

Status
Not open for further replies.
In the latest document dump, Tony did say he believed he drove to Blockbuster.

The 7:45 a.m. on 6-16 was Casey picking up her voice mail. She picked up her messages twice that day. Once at 7:45 a.m. and then again just after 8 p.m.


geezus, killing caylee didn't even break her stride.
 
:waitasec: Makes me wonder if FBI or SA is still holding on the the contents of the owner profile. I know there was SOMETHING there if it showed heavy activity between 2 -3 PM.

I am ready to see that in a doc dump.

Good point. I don't believe we've seen the end of the computer information.
 
:confused:
SNIPPED: " ... The last piece of computer evidence we have is from her photobucket account. In this case a single picture of Fusian was uploaded to her Photobucket at 10:27 AM...."

I'm confused. I thought that the Fusian photo was uploaded around 9:27 a.m.
 
:confused:


I'm confused. I thought that the Fusian photo was uploaded around 9:27 a.m.

Ah...the confusion is that the Photobucket time stamps are all Central Time. I converted to Eastern Time. :)
 
Did you read his transcript that was in the last release?
I found there to be more information than the previous release.

He states that the night chats on June 15/16th were "lovey-dovey" stuff.
They had no real set plans for the next day.
He said she did not go out and check on her car during the movie. That nothing seemed unusual.
They slept in and he skipped a day of school on the 17th to have sex until late morning.

IIRC, Sunday (Father's day) they just hung out at the apartment.

FWIW, in early interviews Tony mentioned how talkative Casey was, and in the early morning hours. He even mentioned that he had like fallen asleep w/ her on the phone. Although my memory says he related that to or during the discussion about his trip to New York and around the time when he ribbed Casey about maybe not coming back to Orlando...and Casey getting upset/crying.

Still...when I look @ the texts on 6/16AM it appears to me that Tony may have fallen asleep during this exchange. At one point Casey texted him 3 times in a row over several minutes w/ no response from him. Finally, he returned her text and called her for a ~10minute conversation around the 3AM mark. After their conversation Casey sent one last text to Tony. Speculation that the call from the Hopespring homephone 7:45'is 6/16AM to Casey's phone was to locate the phone to see if Tony ever replied to her last message.
 
Did you read his transcript that was in the last release?
I found there to be more information than the previous release.

He states that the night chats on June 15/16th were "lovey-dovey" stuff.
They had no real set plans for the next day.
He said she did not go out and check on her car during the movie. That nothing seemed unusual.
They slept in and he skipped a day of school on the 17th to have sex until late morning.

IIRC, Sunday (Father's day) they just hung out at the apartment.
I thought for sure that I did, but now it seems hard to remember. I need to go back and relook.
 
I'm unable to source it...but, thinking lately that the co-sleeping arrangement w/ Caylee & Casey I'm hearing more about may have been at the core of the dynamic fueling Casey's actions, and Caylee's demise 6/16PM.

If accurate, Caylee not able/willing to go to sleep w/o Casey was perhaps...

  • the reason she shared the bed w/ Casey & Ricardo.
  • the reason it may have been difficult for Cindy to keep Caylee w/o Casey @ home @ bedtime - creating a tie that binds - and a directly compelling reason for Cindy to want Casey on a short leash...totally crashing any evening-out plans Casey might want to make...ever
  • the reason Tony represented such a self-serving symbol of 'freedom'. His postion that his apt. was not a good place for Caylee - while it created an issue - also created a dream-come-true excuse for Casey to jettison the ball-and-chain responsiblity that was her daughter :furious: if only for a few hours at a time...

Interesting that we haven't heard anything from G or C about this dynamic and ZFG. :waitasec: IOW...if Cindy had difficulty getting Caylee to go down...she was willing to believe that ZFG got her down w/o issue...OR...she was curious about it and discussed it w/ Casey and we aren't hearing about this detail.

This may have also been a spark for the 6/15PM fight, with Casey wanting to escape back to Tony's..(esp. if Nate was outta town) and Cindy needing to go to work 6/16AM...not wanting to deal w/ an inevitablely tearful and protracted bedtime that night.

Under the circumstances of the evening, 6/16, I can easily envision a Casey blow-up 6/16PM whilst she tried to get Caylee down so she could escape to Blockbuster & Tony...perhaps in the Pontiac w/ some OTC/Rx assistance....not working fast enough...duct tape employed :( Casey thought...She TRIED to get Cindy to let her drop Caylee off @ Gentiva! She TRIED to get Amy! It'll just be a few hours...right?!?!
This does make sense with what we have heard from Casey's friends, Amy, about Cindy calling Casey everytime they went out. It is curious that the A's have left this out of any discussions, I am sure Caylee was a wonderful child, but all children that age (or many of them) have difficulty going to sleep if they are not in familar surroundings, ie; Caylee was used to sleeping with Casey. We know that Amy said that Caylee wouldn't even let her hold her and cried if Casey left the room to go to the bathroom. This supports the theory, IMO, that there were issues and I'll bet this lead to MANY fights between Cindy and Casey. Cindy has to get up early for work, Casey is not home and Caylee won't go to sleep. I am starting to lean towards the fight on the 15th being a,... you need to grow up and mother your daughter talk from Cindy, with I'm not babysitting anymore thrown in for good measure. On the 16th the "flurry" of phone calls from KC to Cindy, I agree, looks like she's wanting a babysitter. One of Cindy's co workers said that Cindy had complained about having to watch Caylee too much, if I remember correctly.
 
This does make sense with what we have heard from Casey's friends, Amy, about Cindy calling Casey everytime they went out. It is curious that the A's have left this out of any discussions, I am sure Caylee was a wonderful child, but all children that age (or many of them) have difficulty going to sleep if they are not in familar surroundings, ie; Caylee was used to sleeping with Casey. We know that Amy said that Caylee wouldn't even let her hold her and cried if Casey left the room to go to the bathroom. This supports the theory, IMO, that there were issues and I'll bet this lead to MANY fights between Cindy and Casey. Cindy has to get up early for work, Casey is not home and Caylee won't go to sleep. I am starting to lean towards the fight on the 15th being a,... you need to grow up and mother your daughter talk from Cindy, with I'm not babysitting anymore thrown in for good measure. On the 16th the "flurry" of phone calls from KC to Cindy, I agree, looks like she's wanting a babysitter. One of Cindy's co workers said that Cindy had complained about having to watch Caylee too much, if I remember correctly.

I'd like to know if Casey asked Jesse or Amy to watch Caylee when she talked to them on 6-16.


I've read what Jesse says Casey talked to him about, but I don't know what Casey said to Amy.
 
I'd like to know if Casey asked Jesse or Amy to watch Caylee when she talked to them on 6-16.


I've read what Jesse says Casey talked to him about, but I don't know what Casey said to Amy.
Good question, there are some things that we have not heard yet. Most of it, in my mind, is from Tony...so many questions they must have asked him and he must have answered. Like at Blockbuster, who picked out the movies, if it was Casey did she stand there for awhile reading about the movie ? Were there any conversations in BB about the movie they were picking ? The conversations they had on the night of the 15th, morning of 16th...did he hear Caylee during any of those calls ? If so, which ones and what time was it ? Also, did he talk to Casey on the 15th about her needing to find someone to watch Caylee ? I would like to hear if Tony remembers Caylee carrying her doll "mama" everywhere with her, during the last times that he saw her alive, did Caylee insist on having it when he saw her ?
 
I do not know what in the holy heck went on in that household...I am just guessing from my own experience. I shared a little bit of it earlier in the thread. One of my worst memories was right before I was hospitalized for jaundice. At the time, I was 8 and my liver almost failed me. I was yellow...big bird yellow. My dad had no patience. He drank. An after 5 drinker. Anyway, right before I was in the hospital...I couldn't keep anything down. Literally. I threw up at the dinner table. My dad and mother began screaming at me. My dad, pulled my hair back like in a really tight pony tail hold and made me eat my own vomit. I say this only because something obviously went down in that house. I know it had to have. I don't care if KC was a prostitute and stealing money. The night before Caylee was murdered, KC was literally almost choked to death by her mother. I don't think that is something that anyone can just file away. I chose to be the best person I could be. To continue to better myself no matter what. I still love my parents. Heck, my mom, was in the kitchen for that incident and yet doesn't recall it. I understand this kind of household. I understand that KC and Lee probably went through the worst kind of hell in their minds...but I don't understand how lack of sympathy/empathy for the people tormenting you leads you to harm a child. I wouldn't harm a bee and I am allergic to their stings. I think that the fight was all that KC needed to lash out at her parents. Sorry for the overshare. I just feel reallly strongly about these kinds of households. It looks perfect from the outside. But inside...there is just nowhere to hide. I am not at all excusing Casey. Not at all.
 
I do not know what in the holy heck went on in that household...I am just guessing from my own experience. I shared a little bit of it earlier in the thread. One of my worst memories was right before I was hospitalized for jaundice. At the time, I was 8 and my liver almost failed me. I was yellow...big bird yellow. My dad had no patience. He drank. An after 5 drinker. Anyway, right before I was in the hospital...I couldn't keep anything down. Literally. I threw up at the dinner table. My dad and mother began screaming at me. My dad, pulled my hair back like in a really tight pony tail hold and made me eat my own vomit. I say this only because something obviously went down in that house. I know it had to have. I don't care if KC was a prostitute and stealing money. The night before Caylee was murdered, KC was literally almost choked to death by her mother. I don't think that is something that anyone can just file away. I chose to be the best person I could be. To continue to better myself no matter what. I still love my parents. Heck, my mom, was in the kitchen for that incident and yet doesn't recall it. I understand this kind of household. I understand that KC and Lee probably went through the worst kind of hell in their minds...but I don't understand how lack of sympathy/empathy for the people tormenting you leads you to harm a child. I wouldn't harm a bee and I am allergic to their stings. I think that the fight was all that KC needed to lash out at her parents. Sorry for the overshare. I just feel reallly strongly about these kinds of households. It looks perfect from the outside. But inside...there is just nowhere to hide. I am not at all excusing Casey. Not at all.
I appreciate you sharing your experience LB, and I read your post early in the thread (stayed up all night last night reading the whole thread), it was wonderful. I am sorry you had to endure such pain, but I am so glad you survived it. You provide much needed insight to those of us that can't relate to the A's. I guess there are different kinds and different levels of "dysfunction" and my childhood would qualify, but where it fits according to other people's "dysfunction", I am not sure. I have a mother, also, that selectively remembers the good things, there were not that many, so I guess it's pretty easy. I mainly wanted to thank you for sharing your experience with me, sorry for the long way around..I have problems "getting to the point". Hopefully you get my drift.
 
The above post is incorrect. Casey was not at TL's all day June 15 until around 7 p.m.
See Pings for June 15 (from Case Calendar for June, http://www.websleuths.com/forums/calendar.php?month=6&year=2008&c=4&do=displaymonth)
here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=243&day=2008-6-15&c=4
and from June 14:
here: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/calendar.php?do=getinfo&e=242&day=2008-6-14&c=4

So, to the contrary, Casey was at her parents' home from approx. 3:48 p.m. on Saturday, June 14, until 3:46 p.m. the next day, Father's Day, Sunday, June 15, THEN she left for Tony's, was gone almost 4 hours to the dot, arriving back at the Anthony home around 7:46 p.m.
I'm a firm believer that the argument began when Cindy arrived at the Anthony home with Caylee that afternoon, prompting Casey to flee for a few hours to TonyL's, only to return later, whereupon the fight continued escalating. There was no swimming going on after Casey left the Anthony home for those 4 hours on Father's Day Sunday.

I'm going to go over the data again to make sure I've not made an error. As I re-do all my research, I will type it here in real time, then go back and check my calendar entries.

Towers labeled for clarity and mapped on Google map using latitude and longitude

Sunday, June 15th: Just Past Midnight to 8:56:25 AM (Near KC's Home)

(A1) 28.4547222 -81.2636111 [2.7 mi from KC home; 15 mi from TL apt]
(A2) 28.5028444 -81.2863333 [2.5 mi from KC home; 7.3 mi from TL apt]
(A3) 28.4691667 -81.2916667 [4.2 mi from KC home; 9.7 mi from TL apt]

{Cellular activity at: 12:13 12:26 1:07 1:15 1:23 1:36 1:51 6:32 6:33 6:34 8:31 8:56 AM}


June 15: 9:15:22 AM to 7:10:14 PM (Near TL's Apt)

(B1) 28.5993583 -81.30325 [10.5 mi from KC home; 1.3 mi from TL apt]
(B2) 28.5653389 -81.2958361 [7.9 mi from KC home; 3.3 mi from TL apt]
(B3) 28.6039167 -81.2876111 [9.9 mi from KC home; 1.3 mi from TL apt]

{Cellular activity at 9:15 AM, then 12:51 12:52 1:01 2:39 2:40 2:44 2:45 3:35 3:36 3:45 3:46 5:06 7:06 7:07 7:08 7:10 PM}


June 15: 7:13:52 PM (Traveling)
(T1) 28.5444 -81.2767472 [Geocoded Address: 100 Chickasaw Trl S, Orlando, FL] 5.8 mi from KC; 5.2 mi from TL


June 15th: 7:19:36 PM to Past Midnight (Near KC's Home)

(A1) 28.4547222 -81.2636111 [2.7 mi from KC home; 15 mi from TL apt]
(A2) 28.5028444 -81.2863333 [2.5 mi from KC home; 7.3 mi from TL apt]
(A3) 28.4691667 -81.2916667 [4.2 mi from KC home; 9.7 mi from TL apt]

{Cellular activity at 7:36 7:37 7:38 7:41 7:42 7:43 7:44 7:46 7:47 7:48 7:49 7:50 7:56 7:58 7:59 8:00 8:04 8:07 8:08 8:14 8:15 8:19 8:21 8:23 8:26 8:28 8:33 8:40 8:41 8:48 8:50 8:51 8:53 8:54 8:56 9:07 9:08 9:09 9:10 9:15 9:16 9:25 9:26 10:05 10:06 10:25 10:35 10:36 10:38 10:43 10:45 10:48 10:49 11:02 11:03 11:04 11:44 PM}

Monday, June 16th: 12:20:53 AM to 4:14:48 PM (Near KC's Home)

(A1) 28.4547222 -81.2636111 8600 [2.7 mi from KC home; 15 mi from TL apt]
(A2) 28.5028444 -81.2863333 2820 [2.5 mi from KC home; 7.3 mi from TL apt]
(A3) 28.4691667 -81.2916667 [4.2 mi from KC home; 9.7 mi from TL apt]

{Cellular activity at 12:20 12:40 1:05 1:06 1:07 1:08 1:09 1:11 1:12 1:13 1:14 1:15 1:17 1:18 1:19 1:23 1:31 1:54 2:57 3:08 3:22 7:45 8:46 11:43 11:47 11:52 AM; 12:53 12:55 1:00 1:26 1:27 1:44 2:52 3:04 3:23 3:35 3:39 4:10 4:11 4:13 4:14 PM}

June 16 4:18:51 PM (Traveling)
(T1) 28.5444 -81.2767472 [Geocoded Address: 100 Chickasaw Trl S, Orlando, FL] 5.8 mi from KC; 5.2 mi from TL

{Cellular activity at 4:18 4:19 4:21 PM}


June 16: 4:25:24 PM until Past Midnight (Near TL's Apt)

(B1) 28.5993583 -81.30325 [10.5 mi from KC home; 1.3 mi from TL apt]
(B2) 28.5653389 -81.2958361 [7.9 mi from KC home; 3.3 mi from TL apt]
(B3) 28.6039167 -81.2876111 [9.9 mi from KC home; 1.3 mi from TL apt]

{Cellular activity at 4:25 4:53 5:57 6:31 6:32 6:33 6:34 7:06 7:20 7:21 8:03 9:04 10:45 11:17 PM; then no activity until 10:52 AM the next day near TL apt}
 
I'm going to go over the data again to make sure I've not made an error. As I re-do all my research, I will type it here in real time, then go back and check my calendar entries. SNIPPED

I have been working off of a printed copy of the discovery documents, not an Excel file. My post above matches my calendar entries. PM me if desired.

Sunday 6/15
-pings near home until 9:15 AM when cell pings near TL
-then no activity until almost 1 PM; pings start again from TL at that time
-pings near TL until 7:10 PM; then pings from home rest of evening and past midnight

Monday 6/16
-pings near home until 4:14 PM; then pings in travel
-pings near TL from 4:25 PM until 11:17 PM; then no cellular activity until 6/17 at 10:52 AM near TL

Calendar note: BondJamesBond pointed out a discrepancy in my calendar entry for 6/15. I didn't see it at the very bottom. I did a lot of cutting and pasting when I made my entries, so that very bottom portion did not belong on that calendar entry and I've now deleted it. The main entry, the top which shows where the pings came from in what time frame is correct. The bottom blurb totally did not go with that event date. My apologies.
 
I do not know what in the holy heck went on in that household...I am just guessing from my own experience.
*respectfully snipped*

:hug:Thanks for sharing your insights, LittleBitty.

Reading your accounts I'm...

(1) saddened @ yet another example of an innocent child being subjected to such things
(2) encouraged how you appear to have risen above the circumstances that seemed so stacked against you having a shot at a well-adjusted adulthood,
(3) seeing an incredibly powerful example of how it appears you've found peace with the past and the ability to still love your parents despite all the reasons you could choose to harbor ill-will toward them (hate the sin not the sinner?)
(4) saying a prayer of thanks that my parents were so loving and caring

I'm sure I can't/don't capture the nuances of the situation. I guess I just wanted to say I really admire your perspective, and your ability to put it in writing so well for the rest of us to benefit. :blowkiss:
 
I have been working off of a printed copy of the discovery documents, not an Excel file. My post above matches my calendar entries. PM me if desired.

Sunday 6/15
-pings near home until 9:15 AM when cell pings near TL
-then no activity until almost 2PM; pings start again from TL at that time
-pings near TL until 7:10 PM; then pings from home rest of evening and past midnight

Monday 6/16
-pings near home until 4:14 PM; then pings in travel
-pings near TL from 4:25 PM until 11:17 PM; then no cellular activity until 6/17 at 10:52 AM near TL

Thanks, QS. I think I see where the confusion happens. Based on the details in post #495 I think we're in violent agreement. I'll PM you to see if you agree w/ what I'm seeing.
 
...meanwhile...back @ the theory ranch...:cow: :bud: :cow:

After staying up until at least 3:22AM texting w/ Tony...

@ 7:45AM 6/16 we have the call from G&C's home phone to Casey's phone. Speculation that this call served one of two purposes
(a) Casey attempting to locate the phone itself, or,
(b) Cindy attempting to locate Casey​

FWIW, I'm not clear on Cindy's start-time @ Gentiva, but, since it is located in the vicinity of Tony's apt. we can approximate the travel time to be ~20mins. I'm also not sure 'bout everyone else's experience, but, my little girl thinks 'sleeping in' means getting up <6:30AM :sleep:...so...just for grins...perhaps well-rested Caylee was up & at'em around the time Cindy was leaving for work 6/16 and one or both of them roused Casey (no offense to murdered overnight theorists) since Cindy was leaving and George was prolly still snoozin' after his evening-shift too - sleepy Casey was faced w/ entertaining Caylee. After Cindy left Casey emerged from the bedroom for food/bathroom, whatever, and wanted to see if she had any messages/texts from Tony so she called her phone herself to locate it. "Found it"...no messages :mad: (OK...it was initially beyond me how Casey wouldn't have known where her phone was after having it in her hands all night...:waitasec:...unless maybe it was lost in the sheets...or had fallen down behind/under the bed...OK...workable).

@ 8:46AM Casey sent a text to Tony...waited...no response :mad:

@ 10:27AM, IIRC, we have computer forensics showing Casey uploaded Fusian pics to photobucket (lil' help w/ the time here?)

@ 11:47AM after 3 hours passed since her text to Tony...he called her

By somewhere around this time George is up & about.


IF we pause here for a moment...is there anything we can conclude?

  • Did Casey apply the duct tape & heart to Caylee to keep her quiet until Cindy left after the possible fight between the 2 as the last event of 6/15 that ended w/ Casey going into the bedroom and closing/slamming/locking the door?
It seems to me that there's room to consider this...since Casey was certainly tired from lack of sleep, since she prolly didn't wanna see Cindy, and it would've continued the dig @ Cindy by keeping Caylee from her (take that!). The no-shoes-on-Caylee's body camp would like this I'm sure.​
However...if Casey had a dead Caylee in the house whilst the only other person @ home, George, was asleep...wouldn't it seem the ripe opportunity to get-the-helloutta-Dodge? :waitasec: Instead, Casey sat down and uploaded pics to Photobucket....:eek:nline:

  • That Casey received the call from Tony @ 11:47 after 3 hours of inactivity allows us to consider that she may have employed the duct tape to enable her to catch some z's after she uploaded the Photobucket pics.
:waitasec: That's possible. That option woulda left Casey with discovering a dead Caylee whilst George was up and about and before he left for work. Casey woulda been doing whatever she had to in order to keep George at bay. Can't rule this out entirely. George's call home @ 3:03PM coulda been to check on an allegedly 'sick' Caylee that was 'resting' in bed...not to be disturbed. FWIW, the ADD on this option doesn't give a stellar bagging date & time (mid-morning 6/19 whilst near Tony's apt.).

Consider also, during this timeframe Casey has two phone conversations w/ Tony (19 & 14mins each) and @ 1:44PM (before George woulda left for work) Casey placed a call to Amy and talked for 36mins before Casey switched over to take an incoming call from Jesse - aparrently the result of a text exchange the two had before Casey called Amy. While its possible Casey did all of this from her bedroom, it does seem she was pretty otherwise occuppied if keeping George @ bay was paramount.

IIRC, computer forensics show some surfing that afternoon ~3PM, which might be worth another look. If we look @ all of the above, once George FINALLY left the house...if Casey knew she had a dead Caylee on her hands, IMHO, it seems highly unlikely her first George-free hour to act would be spent surfing, etc. :eek:nline: Worth another look...:sleuth:...what was she interested in that afternoon?​

Since I think we can now (post release of the home phone & George's cell records) consider that Casey was @ home w/ Caylee when George left 6/16, it opens up the door to how Caylee might've gotten into the car w/o shoes...since Caylee woulda likely been napping still when George left for work. Whether Caylee was alive or not when she was placed in the car...well...carry on...

Quoting myself...bad form and all.

I was REAALLLLY hoping to get some discussion on the above. Somebody start poking away at this stuff already...:poke:...please.
 
Quoting myself...bad form and all.

I was REAALLLLY hoping to get some discussion on the above. Somebody start poking away at this stuff already...:poke:...please.

Some thoughts to consider (I need to read this whole thread to give you a good answer to your questions, Bond). I don't have a list in front of me of who all the numbers belong to, so those can be added later. I am thinking that when she has incoming text messages, I should not assume she is on the phone because she doesn't have to do anything to receive a text message or a phone call for that matter. Calls that appear lengthy could even be long voicemail messages. Unlikely, but possible. So my focus is on calls and texts messages that she originated unless there were seconds shown in the duration column of the cell logs.

6/16/08 (at or near the Anthony home)
Some times approximate when seconds are known

No Cellular Activity:
1:54 AM to 2:57 AM
3:22 AM to 7:45 AM
7:45 AM to 8:46 AM
8:46 AM to 11:43 AM

11:47 to 12:06 PM - received a call
12:53 PM - originated a text msg
1:00 PM to 1:14 PM - received a call
1:26 PM - originated a text msg
1:44 PM to 2:14 PM - originated a call
2:52 PM to 3:03 PM - received a call
3:04 PM - received a 26 second call
3:35 PM - originated a 22 second call
4:10 PM - originated a 34 second call
4:11 PM - originated two calls; 0 and 3 seconds
4:13 PM - originated two calls; 0 and 2 seconds
4:14 PM - originated a 98 second call

(Many of the last calls were to her parents. I am unsure if they were ever asked to turn over their messages from home or work or cell phones or were asked about any messages KC may have left.)

My point: On the 16th while she was at or near the Anthony home there are really very few times we can be fairly sure that at least one of KC's hands was actually on the phone for more than a few seconds, shown below. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see receiving a text message or a calls that lasts a few seconds as proof that she was on the phone. Making, yes, for a few seconds probably. Receiving? No.

11:47 to 12:06 PM - 19 minutes
1:00 PM to 1:14 PM - 14 minutes
1:44 PM to 2:14 PM - 36 minutes
2:52 PM to 3:03 PM - 11 minutes

So, starting about 7:45 AM and ending around 4:15 PM, (approximately 8.5 hours), we are fairly certain we know what she was doing for only about an hour and a half. Thoughts? Is that what you are thinking, Bond?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
73
Guests online
3,938
Total visitors
4,011

Forum statistics

Threads
593,090
Messages
17,981,176
Members
229,023
Latest member
Clueliz
Back
Top