TN - Gail Nowacki Palmgren, 44, Signal Mountain, 30 April 2011 - #6

[BeanE]

I have to disagree with that. "Diagnosing" someone as paranoid or delusional without any real medical analysis is the same thing as waving your finger in a circle to show that someone is crazy.

I disagree. Seeing certain behaviors and saying "I think that person is )(paranoid or delusional or depressed or personality disordered or whatever)" is the same as seeing someone bending over clutching their chest and saying "I think that person is having a heart attack", or seeing someone in a restaurant clutching their throat, unable to speak, and saying "I think that person is choking", or seeing someone sweating, pale, dizzy, and saying "I think that person is having a blood sugar problem".

And thank God, there are people who are astute and perceptive and kind and compassionate and willing to do something when they think something may be wrong with someone else.

ETA: I would like to see any evidence that Gail was being treated for delusions or a "mental episode."

There are several articles that state that in court documents, Matt stated that Gail was on prescribed medications. If you'd like the links, just holler - I'm happy to pull them.

There is also her LE-given classification of Endangered, with no reports of any physical condition.

There are also, in addition to 'civilian' reports of behavior outside the norm, at least one LE-substantiated report of this - specifically that she called 911 because her husband wouldn't get back in the car and was walking home.

I am, of course, using my own common sense, knowledge, life experience, to assess whether certain behaviors were within or outside the norm.

No matter how I twist it or turn it, I cannot convince myself that calling 911 because one's spouse got out of the car and is walking home, or to report that a friend was trying to take away your kids in a store, is within the bounds of normal, average, expected behavior.

I could be dead wrong. I could be stupid. I'm fine with either. It's just what I think, based on the info currently available.

 

[jeni4smith]

:twocents:Yes...the couple in Birmingham, Alabama (Hoover,AL) is the same couple that GP left her jewelry with for safe keeping. NOW....the husband (Mr. G) is the attorney that is suppose to be representing MP in his wrongful termination suit against BCBS of TN. Mr. G's wife was also one of the ppl who GP had confided in about her finding out from Gail's P.I. that MP was cheating on GP. Later, ppl became aware that Mr. G's wife had called MP to tell him what GP knew about MP's cheating ways. That the person she confided in AND TRUSTED... had betrayed her:loser: By calling MP and telling him what she knew....and by giving back the jewelry that GP had entrusted Mr. G to keep safe for GP. Some friend huh ???:banghead:

Where is this information being published? Where and when was a lawsuit filed? Did I miss something ?

 

[looking4lost]

http://brainybehavior.com/blog/Paranoid_Schizophrenia_JT_06.pdf

"women have a bimodal onset with peaks in their 20s and early 40s"

"stress is often a main contributor but viewed as only affecting the timing of onset and severity of disorder"

Working from my cell phone and this is a PDF, so not sure of authors credentials

 

[believe09]

BeanE there is much left out of the 911 report about the exit from the vehicle-for example was MP impaired in anyway? Were there any additional reasons Gail would have hidden keys? Was the vehicle moving when he jumped out? I dont think we have the whole side of that one. LE isnt releasing the incident reports or the MP reports on their side because it is an active investigation. I flat out asked, fwiw.

I think that we can continue to move in circles here-some can read her behavior as being outside the norm and some can read it as a classic battered woman's behavior. The only thing that doesnt fit for me is the return of the children. She was not required to return them, she could not be charged with kidnapping them as she had custody AND LE permission (perhaps encouragement) to take them.

We are a prozac nation-being medicated when you have lost your job and your marriage is crumbling seems reasonable to me. JMO.

 

[looking4lost]

I was also wondering about the 911 calls because the reason for calling seemed so minor. However, do we know all the facts? Was one party extremely intoxicated or not in the position to make appropriate decisions? How did MP exit the car? Was the car moving? Was the car on an interstate?
I don't know the answers, just saying there may be more details

 

[believe09]

At the risk of being too blunt, this is ridiculous. Respectfully, SMM and Arlene have NO IDEA whether or not the FBI has been called in and is already working this case. Just because it has not been announced to the Media, Arlene or SMM does not mean it has not happened. Just because the two of them are not being told each step LE is making does not mean nothing is happening.

I am really puzzled at the direction this is heading with the two of them-they are losing credibility with the people they need the most. Bear in mind, if the bulk of LE's case is contaminated, they will pull up stakes and move on to other things. Then no one wins, but most of all not Gail.

No, being missing is not probable cause to search someones home. If that were the case, Arlene's home could be tossed, Susie's could be tossed, Tammy's could be tossed because they are associated with this case.

Sheesh. (my Sheesh is not directed at any poster here-simply at the whole situation I hasten to add.)

 

[looking4lost]

Oops! Looks like Believe and I were on the same train of thought

 

[hollyblue]

BeanE there is much left out of the 911 report about the exit from the vehicle-for example was MP impaired in anyway? Were there any additional reasons Gail would have hidden keys? Was the vehicle moving when he jumped out? I dont think we have the whole side of that one. LE isnt releasing the incident reports or the MP reports on their side because it is an active investigation. I flat out asked, fwiw.

I think that we can continue to move in circles here-some can read her behavior as being outside the norm and some can read it as a classic battered woman's behavior. The only thing that doesnt fit for me is the return of the children. She was not required to return them, she could not be charged with kidnapping them as she had custody AND LE permission (perhaps encouragement) to take them.

We are a prozac nation-being medicated when you have lost your job and your marriage is crumbling seems reasonable to me. JMO.

Unfortunately, this is true and very tragic. I won't begin the argument to take away from GP's thread, but Mother's Little Helpers has become too frequent to cover up the symptoms and dealing with actual problems. imo

 

[Columbo]

I'd like to know about the 911 call Gail supposedly made when she was out buying Easter candy for the kids with the couple in Hoover, AL (the attorney couple), and she became separated from them. Supposedly she called 911 because she was afraid the couple was taking her kids from her. Did the police actually come to the store?

http://chattanoogan.com/articles/article_203652.asp

 

[Oriah]

At the risk of being too blunt, this is ridiculous. Respectfully, SMM and Arlene have NO IDEA whether or not the FBI has been called in and is already working this case. Just because it has not been announced to the Media, Arlene or SMM does not mean it has not happened. Just because the two of them are not being told each step LE is making does not mean nothing is happening.

I am really puzzled at the direction this is heading with the two of them-they are losing credibility with the people they need the most. Bear in mind, if the bulk of LE's case is contaminated, they will pull up stakes and move on to other things. Then no one wins, but most of all not Gail.

No, being missing is not probable cause to search someones home. If that were the case, Arlene's home could be tossed, Susie's could be tossed, Tammy's could be tossed because they are associated with this case.

Sheesh. (my Sheesh is not directed at any poster here-simply at the whole situation I hasten to add.)

Believe09, fwiw I'm with you entirely.

IMO, a lot of legal hands have now been tied because of all of the interference of this active investigation. I'd actually LIKE to see a few other homes tossed, but at this point everything is so contaminated- and Gail and her family are paying for it.

Reminder- this is not TV. I don't want to see a Lifetime movie made about Gail in a year or two. I want her found, and if someone(s) has committed a crime against her, I'd like to see justice done.
If this turns into something like a suicide or accident, my heart will break for both Gail and her children.

What this is, is by all accounts except one; a loving, caring mom who disappeared without a trace, leaving behind two children whom she loves very much, and family and friends that she was in contact with at the time and who also love her very much.

A women who disappeared after becoming increasing distraught after uncovering information about her husband (and therefore her life, and the future lives of her children) that was tremendously stressed- and I imagine infuriated, depressed, and scared- and was in the process of both realizing that, and trying to figure out how best to climb out of the darkness she had suddenly found herself in.

MOO, but forget the schitzophrenia or mental illness approach until we see ANY type of documentation that Gail was treated for anything of that sort. And even then, take into account that it appears she was struggling with the prospect of her entire life crumbling before her very eyes.

Ok- off rant here- but can we somehow get back to helping, and not hurting, the search for finding Gail and/or her jeep??

 

[believe09]

Ah, Oriah-thanks for trying to refocus us. I would hope that one innocuous piece of info LE could release would be whether or not the Big Forks siting was deemed credible. If so, then a renewed effort at mapping the mines and shafts might be helpful. If it has fizzled, then a renewed effort to narrow down what areas might still apply to dumping a vehicle.

I still like the idea of a waterway. That is JMO. Because then you could do both pretty easily and neatly.

 

[Pearl*]

Thank you. Have to say I've had the same thoughts, as the stress levels seem to appear on specific days of the week resulting in her calling LE, and eventually leaving the home. It could be from well orchestrated mental abuse.....but other means could be a possibility....or a mixture of the two.

I agree that it is good to consider all possibilities; however, the "specific days of the week" could still be related to the domestic violence scenario. I believe it is well-documented that conflict in these cases tends to heat up over weekends when the parties are together more of the time and on less of a structured schedule. No question that all structure fell apart on April 27, "tornado day."

Interactions get more unpredictable and there is much more interaction. If they're already on each other's nerves, situations can more easily escalate. As long as somebody's going to work/school at a set time every day, the structure (as well as time apart perhaps) tends to settle things a bit.

Aren't all the calls on weekends? Or at times the "typical structure" of the workdays/school days is missing?

 

[BeanE]

BeanE there is much left out of the 911 report about the exit from the vehicle-for example was MP impaired in anyway? Were there any additional reasons Gail would have hidden keys? Was the vehicle moving when he jumped out? I dont think we have the whole side of that one. LE isnt releasing the incident reports or the MP reports on their side because it is an active investigation. I flat out asked, fwiw.

I'll say it again. I'm basing my thoughts and opinions on the information that is available. I can, and do, change on a dime (in any case I follow) as new info is available. I thought those statements clearly indicated that I know we don't have all the information.

Also, I'm well aware that anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications are prescribed with great frequency these days. It's constantly in the news.

I'm glad you mentioned Prozac particularly. It's been in the news a lot. A number of anti-depressants, in some people, cause such side effects as paranoia, suicidal ideations, etc.

I wonder if she'd been put on any new medications.

These things need to be checked on by LE, to help them pinpoint, by ruling in and ruling out and determining likelihoods, as they do, what happened to Gail.

The news article on the search said they looked for blood. I wonder if they looked for chemical substances, tainted foods, computer searches for poisoning related subjects at home or Matt's work, which of any professional pharmacological manuals he might have checked on in recent weeks and months, etc.

I'm not making any accusations towards him. It's just more things that need to be checked, the same as her anti-depressants, and how she got that black eye (possible head injury?), that need to be ruled in and ruled out.

I'm not ready to sing just one note yet. I want to look around and explore some more and get more comfortable with what *I think* are most likely.

Maybe that's a stupid way to do things. Maybe I'm a total idiot. I'm fine with that. I mean well.

 

[Oriah]

A few other questions that I have (some mentioned before):
* Do we know if Gail may have had a safe deposit box somewhere? A P.O. Box?
* Where did she bank? What bank accounts are joint vs separate?
* Are there any firearms registered to any of the homes owned by either Gail, or Gail and Matt?
* Do either Gail or Matt have a gas card for a specific station? Do they typically pay cash for fuel, or do they charge or debit it?

 

[BeanE]

At the risk of being too blunt, this is ridiculous. Respectfully, SMM and Arlene have NO IDEA whether or not the FBI has been called in and is already working this case. Just because it has not been announced to the Media, Arlene or SMM does not mean it has not happened. Just because the two of them are not being told each step LE is making does not mean nothing is happening.

I agree. FBI and/or TBI and/or any number of other agencies could be working it already, without it having been announced to the public, or even told to the family yet. LE calls in agencies all the time. Look at the laundry list of agencies who have been called in on Kyron Horman's case.

I was tremendously bothered by SMM saying to her male guest something like "can't we usurp this thing?". I mean... wut? Usurp the investigation of a missing person? Not wise.

 

[Oriah]

Ah, Oriah-thanks for trying to refocus us. I would hope that one innocuous piece of info LE could release would be whether or not the Big Forks siting was deemed credible. If so, then a renewed effort at mapping the mines and shafts might be helpful. If it has fizzled, then a renewed effort to narrow down what areas might still apply to dumping a vehicle.

I still like the idea of a waterway. That is JMO. Because then you could do both pretty easily and neatly.

BBM:
That is my thought as well, as much as I hate to say it.
One would be surprised (our diver members would know this) how often vehicles- stolen, accidentally sank, or disposed of for criminal purposes- are found in bodies of water or waterways.
Wouldn't be the first time that LE or rescue or recreational divers pull up one vehicle, and then another, and another....all unrelated to the same case.

Now thinking sadly along those lines, I've taken a look at several waterways and still bodies of water. Does anyone know of any local or semi-local quarries?

 

[Pearl*]

I notice the article also confirms MP hired both Hoss and Davis. I always wondered about that. So he's got a PI, 2 defense attorneys, a 3rd attorney for the BCBS lawsuit, and an expert who used to work for the police department working for him. Must be nice.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/jun/24/police-search-palmgren-house/

Not to be picky, but just to give MP a tiny break here, if I'm not mistaken, in the case of a law firm or partnership, the hiring is technically of the business entity. I would suppose MP retained "the firm" rather than Hoss or Davis specifically. Isn't that the way it works?

Thoughtfox? I bet your daughter would know the answer to that question.

As an aside, I think the AL attorney may just be there for entertainment purposes. He certainly doesn't present himself as being of the caliber of Hoss and Davis.

 

[believe09]

Yup, a change in medication could trigger things and both being in a position to have access to all kinds of medication is concerning. I feel certain LE feels the same way, and likely knows the answer to the first for sure and possibly the second since the search of the residence.

But the second is speculation on my part. I am defensive of Gail because she is not here to defend herself and I will state that flat out...if I have to pick a side, I will pick the victim. Which does NOT mean I think that Matt is involved. I dont have enough information, just to be clear.

And I know you and admire you BeanE enough to know you are dedicated to the cases you choose. I appreciate that you are here. Not that this means much.

 

[BeanE]

Believe09, fwiw I'm with you entirely.

MOO, but forget the schitzophrenia or mental illness approach

Ah, Oriah-thanks for trying to refocus us.

Okay, so we aren't allowed to discuss anything except Matt killed her, and we can't consider if the means - with him being a pharmacologist and all - may have been poisoning, even though that could change where Gail and the Jeep are?

Just tell me the rules, and I am always happy to follow them.

 

[Oriah]

I'll say it again. I'm basing my thoughts and opinions on the information that is available. I can, and do, change on a dime (in any case I follow) as new info is available. I thought those statements clearly indicated that I know we don't have all the information.

Also, I'm well aware that anti-depressants and anti-anxiety medications are prescribed with great frequency these days. It's constantly in the news.

I'm glad you mentioned Prozac particularly. It's been in the news a lot. A number of anti-depressants, in some people, cause such side effects as paranoia, suicidal ideations, etc.

I wonder if she'd been put on any new medications.

These things need to be checked on by LE, to help them pinpoint, by ruling in and ruling out and determining likelihoods, as they do, what happened to Gail.

The news article on the search said they looked for blood. I wonder if they looked for chemical substances, tainted foods, computer searches for poisoning related subjects at home or Matt's work, which of any professional pharmacological manuals he might have checked on in recent weeks and months, etc.

I'm not making any accusations towards him. It's just more things that need to be checked, the same as her anti-depressants, and how she got that black eye (possible head injury?), that need to be ruled in and ruled out.

I'm not ready to sing just one note yet. I want to look around and explore some more and get more comfortable with what *I think* are most likely.

Maybe that's a stupid way to do things. Maybe I'm a total idiot. I'm fine with that. I mean well.

BBM:
BeanE, this crossed my mind immediately upon hearing about the SW. In particular, any medications that may have been seized during the searches. If there were, what were they prescribed for, and by whom? What pharmacy filled them? Were there any illicit drugs in any of the homes, or prescriptions that did not match with the residents of the home? Was there alcohol in the home, or in any vehicles- including the boat or trailer? Do Gail or Matt attend any sort of religious congregation regularly, and if so- what kind?

This information, I would think, will come out very slowly from LE, however; it is a good investigative approach to try and figure out what was going on in Gail's and Matt's life prior to her missing.

What was Gail like as a child? As a high school student? College? She clearly was academically successful. How did she react to stressful situations, loss, and anger?

These are some of the things that might help point us in a direction of what may have happened that week- and what direction she might have headed when she disappeared.