Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[Jamtart]

You don't have to entertain it. All I'm saying is wait until all the evidence is in before you make a conclusion that it's false and no matter what evidence is brought forth, you are not going to believe it no matter what.

I am a strong victim's advocate! Have I ever indicated anything resembling disrespect or disdain toward Reeva? No! It is horrible that she was killed, and it was Oscar's fault and he should be held accountable ..I'm just not willing to make a conclusion that it was definitely premeditated before the evidence is in.

I certainly hope that being "victim friendly" does not mean that we agree with the prosecution at all times and hope for a conviction irrespective of what the evidence shows.

Agreed. I find it worrying to read and hear in conversation people say that they would find OP guilty solely on the basis that he didn't waken Reeva, or because he didn't respond in the way that they think they would or he should have, or on any other single point of consideration. It is concerning that people feel it is possible to justify coming to any definite conclusions (either in favour of OP or against him) on the basis of the first week of what is likely to be a lengthy trial. We have only heard a fraction of the evidence. Maybe SA have the right idea in trusting a judge to make decisions in preference to a jury system.

 

[katydid23]

He wouldn't - and there are apparently phone records that show that Oscar called NetCare at 3:20

Are there phone records that show that? Is it still in dispute? I am not certain. It might have been made by the phantom 5th phone. I would like more clarification.


one of the reasons I am confused is the request OP made later for Stander to call an ambulance.

 

[Trooper]

Please see my post above addressing the exact same question. There's no need to keep repeating the question.

I am not claiming it is so, I'm saying (again) that it's too early in the trial to conclusively rule it out.

I see no reason for the repeated claims that the witnesses are biased.. no need to keep repeating that unfounded supposition.

I think it is too late in the trial for Roux to be claiming , under Oscars instruction that he, and only he was the source of ALL human sound, both womanly and manly sounds emanating from his home that morning.

it is a claim that has absurdity embedded inescapably into the very core of the defence. It has left Roux with the unenviable task of proving this to be the catalyst that negates the witnesses who heard screaming and shouting argumentative voices. Therefore, without the definitive and unarguable proof that Oscar can and did scream exactly as the witnesses heard, then Oscars case has gone to hell. If that proof is provided and Oscar screams for the court as Roux claims, under Oscars instruction, then the witnesses are nuts, and biased and collaboraters..

You think Oscar can. I think Oscar can't.

I am merely curious as to why you think he can. still a simple request.

 

[Harmony 2]

Note: I made corrections and additions




Note: This is a work in progress... please add or make corrections...I could not locate a time for the entries marked with ???. I have added minor4th notes denoted with an asterisk


Oscar-Pistorius-Timeline-to-tragedy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...1769/Oscar-Pistorius-Timeline-to-tragedy.html

February 14, 2013

6 p.m.- Reeva entered the complex alone in her Mini Cooper.
Pistorius entered the complex shortly thereafter. He was on his phone.

1:56 a.m.- neighbor Estelle van der Merwe:
“I woke up the morning at 1:56am to sounds of someone talking loudly and fighting,’’ she told the court. “It lasted about an hour.’’

http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...rrifying-screams/story-fnh81gzi-1226845099657

*2:00 a.m. - Werwe heard what sounded like a woman's voice on one side of an argument

2:20 a.m.- Baba stated in court that at 2.20 am everything seemed normal during a security check.

3:00a.m-

Michell Burger, a lecturer at the University of Pretoria who lived 170m away on a neighbouring estate to Pistorius, said she was woken at 3am "from a woman's terrible screams".
She said the woman "yelled for help" and then she heard a man screaming for help three times, before shots were fired.
She said that there was a gap between the first shot and the next three, describing it as "bang (pause), bang bang bang."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-bloodcurdling-screams-followed-by-shots.html

*3:00 - 3:15 a.m. -Stipp was woken up by 3 "shots" and got up and went to balcony to see where it was coming from

*3:00 - 3:17 a.m. - Stipp reports he heard a woman "screaming or yelling" 2 or 3 times

3:15a.m- Dr Stipp made a call at 3.15 am and spoke with Baba for 16 seconds. Stipp reported the shots and asked security to come and see where the shots were coming from.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*Burger and Johnson awoke to the sounds of loud screams they identified as coming from a female

*3:15- 3:16 a.m. - Burger and Johnson report they heard yelling "help, help, help"

3:16 a.m.-

According to Roux, the call Johnson made at 3:16 am on Valentines Day last year to a security company was followed three minutes later by Pistorius's call to his complex's chairperson, Johan Stander.

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/79d46...,-witness-phone-calls-under-scrutiny-20140306

*3:17 a.m. – Stipp heard "2 or 3" additional "shots"

*3:17 a.m. Burger and Johnson heard "3 or 4" sounds they believe to be gunshots

*After 3:17 a.m. - Werwe heard "loud crying" that she initially thought was a woman, but her husband identified the voice as Oscar Pistorius

????-

Baba sent a buggy to Dr Stipp's house, and by then Dr Stipp was standing on the balcony. At that stage Dr Stipp pointed directly at Mr Pistorius's house. Pistorius's house was directly visible from Dr Stipp's house and Baba says the lights in Mr Pistorius's house were on so he immediately drove there.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*3:20 a.m. - Oscar calls Netcare and reports that they advised him to take Reeva to the hospital and not wait for the ambulance

???- Baba spoke to Pistorius on the phone and Pistorius said, "Security, everything is fine".

3:24a.m.-

Roux says that Baba's phone call with Pistorius was 3.24 am- questioning the timings of the conversations.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Note: quoting Zinn because the post is very descriptive of the events that followed…

Something similar occurred when Roux questioned Baba. I just listened to Baba's testimony myself because I didn't want to rely strictly on the tweets from courtroom reporters. It's my understanding that Baba and one or two additional guards were inside a truck in front of OP's house when Baba initiated calls to OP. Baba said he "began making calls" to OP when they arrived at his house, but I don't know how many calls. He claims to have initiated the call that became their first conversation, during which OP allegedly said everything was fine. The other guard inside the vehicle (the driver) was able to hear both sides of the conversation and Baba commented to him that something was not right. It sounded to me like Baba asked OP to come downstairs to reassure them everything was fine and that's when the conversation ended. Baba didn't say exactly how the first call ended (which person initiated hanging up) but when referring to the second call he said "the line went dead again", so perhaps OP hung up both times. I don't know. OP then called Baba, cried, and then the line went dead. Roux claims phone records indicate OP placed the first call at 3:21 and Baba's call was placed at 3:24. Baba disputed this (not the exact time of the call, but the fact that OP called him first) and Roux said he would provide documentation of this on Monday. To me, it sounded like Roux was strictly referring to calls made to/from the landline security number which would not be relevant if Baba called from a mobile phone while in his vehicle. But Roux claims Baba's initial statement said he called OP at 3:24. It seems phone records will be very important in this case.

Unrelated to phone calls, but also of interest, is that Baba said he and two other guards saw Stander and his daughter arrive, parking half in the street. Stander and his daughter ran toward OP's house and the three guards ran after them. Stander's daughter opened the door and went inside. Stander stood in the doorway. The guards stood behind Stander. All this coincided with OP walking down the stairs holding Reeva. Baba was shocked and only snapped out of it when Stander's daughter shouted "Oscar!" Baba testified that OP became aware of five people (the Standers and three guards) present in and around the doorway as he was descending the stairs with Reeva. Baba said after snapping out of his shock, he was focused on observing with OP was wearing and that is when Stander asked Baba to go call police and ambulance. The driver of the security truck (Jacob?) was asked to make sure no vehicles were parked at OP's.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

???- The estate manager Mr Stander arrived at Mr Pistorius's house with his daughter.

???- Baba didn't enter Pistorius's house because Stander was standing at door. Lights were on in the house. Baba left to call the police and paramedics.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html
???-

Stipp arrived and said Pistorius had his fingers in Steenkamp's mouth in an attempt to revive her breathing but it soon became clear that she was "mortally" wounded.

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/439cc...ried-and-prayed-next-to-Reeva's-body-20140306


*3:28 a.m. Both Stander and Stipp are at Oscar's house; Stander calls ambulance from Stipp's phone

Other sources:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...rrifying-screams/story-fni0xs63-1226845099657

 

[beach]

Time to agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Lyra500]

He heard two sets of "2 to 3" gunshots 10 minutes apart. If one of those "2 to 3" bangs was not the cricket bat and not gunshots, but it was loud enough to sound like gunshots - what do you suggest it was?

I suspect the most likely scenario is that the first lot of noises which woke Dr Stipp up were the cricket bat being used to bash a hole in the toilet door. This caused the terrified screams which were heard by several neighbours. Since Dr. Stipp was just coming out of sleep it seems more likely that he would get the identification of these noises wrong. Since he has military training i believe he was far more likely to accurately recognise the second lot of bangs as gunfire when he was wide awake. Obviously, the screaming stopped after these shots.

I do not believe that none of the screams were Reeva, whatever Roux is attempting to suggest.

If we are talking about motive, then OP and Roux HAVE to prove that none of the screams were Reeva - otherwise why didn't OP stop shooting? If Reeva screamed at all, then it blows OP's story out of the water. Hence the endless questioning and re- questioning and bizarre promises of lab recordings (which will prove nothing more than the fact that OP can scream in a high pitched voice when faced with 25 years in prison).

 

[Lyra500]

Good idea. That is why I say that it's premature to say the evidence establishes this or that with any confidence without even hearing any of the defense case. It is very premature to say that there is zero chance that a cricket bat breaking a door could sound like gunshots, and to say there is absolutely no way all the witnesses mistook Oscar's screams for the screams of a woman.

I agree that it is intuitively hard to grasp that 4 witnesses were mistaken about hearing a woman scream - but we already have one witness who has confirmed that she thought the screams were a woman but it was actually Oscar (whose voice her husband recognized).

It is pretty much always the case that during the prosecution's case, defendants appear guilty, and it's hard to imagine any other outcome - but that can change when the defense puts on their case.

BIB - i think if you look again your deduction is incorrect. Check out the timeline in Harmony2's thread.


This was not the woman screaming before the second lot of shots heard by Dr Stipp and the other witnesses. This was the testimony of Mrs Van. W who thought she heard a woman crying loudly, but was told by her husband that he recognised it to be OP. This crying came AFTER the shots and Reeva's death, so cannot be used to show that Reeva didn't scream earlier.

 

[minor4th]

simple question then.. is it your belief that Oscar can and did in fact scream exactly like a woman in terror would, and do you think Oscar can in fact replicate that scream , to the satisfaction of the court and witnesses to the scream in its exactitude??

if this is your belief, may I ask, in all fairness and with respect ( a little touch of Roux ) what the foundation of your belief is??

the foundation of my belief that he couldn't and didn't, and cant, is that (a) very few men can do it, (b) the person who testified that she has heard Oscar scream in rage rejects the proposition that he sounds like a woman, and (b) that the one time there is archival footage ( with sound) of Oscar in an incandescent rage ( London Olympics race that he lost), the biggest loss Oscar had endured , caught on camera, he is in a complete meltdown for about 10 mins, and doesn't scream with the pitch , frequency and timbre of a woman..

now its over to you, Minor.. your foundation for belief that he can. thankyou.

I don't know!! I don't know how many times I can say it. The only foundation I have at the moment is that Werwe thought it was a woman screaming but then realized it was Oscar. If Werwe can mistake Oscar's screams for a woman, so could others.

At this point there is no way to know or even form a solid opinion because I haven't heard what Roux is going to present. I say it's possible only because one witness has already said it.

 

[Feynman]

excerpted quote:

I am not going to consider the possibility that Oscar can and did scream like a woman AND a man simultaneously while shots were being fired.. this would require a bias from me that would render me incapable of distinguishing whether the sun rose in the east or in the west. Since this is what Dr Stipp testified to hearing, I'm inclined to believe that he heard that as he has NO REASON TO CREATE A BLATANT LIE on the stand in a murder trial..

This is what may be termed a false dichotomy: Shipp testified to X. Either X is true, or Shipp is telling a BLATANT LIE. Since the good doctor has no reason to tell a blatant lie, X is established. There is a third way: Shipp could simply be mistaken about X. Witnesses, even the best of them, can make mistakes - especially when awakened out of sleep.

As for myself, I'm undecided on all of these witness accounts. It does seem unlikely that all these witnesses are wrong in the main. All of them? Huh ... Really? It is very difficult to believe we went from TV and yoga at 10 pm to fans and noises in the bathroom at 3 am and bloody death a few minutes later, without interceding events. So kudos to Roux for making the whole mess so bleepin' unclear at this point.

 

[minor4th]

I suspect the most likely scenario is that the first lot of noises which woke Dr Stipp up were the cricket bat being used to bash a hole in the toilet door. This caused the terrified screams which were heard by several neighbours. Since Dr. Stipp was just coming out of sleep it seems more likely that he would get the identification of these noises wrong. Since he has military training i believe he was far more likely to accurately recognise the second lot of bangs as gunfire when he was wide awake. Obviously, the screaming stopped after these shots.

I do not believe that none of the screams were Reeva, whatever Roux is attempting to suggest.

If we are talking about motive, the OP and Roux HAVE to prove that none of the screams were Reeva - otherwise why didn't OP stop shooting? If Reeva screamed at all, then it blows OP's story out of the water. Hence the endless questioning and re- questioning and bizarre promises of lab recordings (which will prove nothing more than the fact that OP can scream in a high pitched voice when faced with 25 years in prison).

But I keep reading that there's no way a cricket bat hitting the door can sound like gunshots.

I do not believe your scenario is likely for another reason - according to Roux there is forensic evidence showing that the gunshots came before the bat breaking the door. There are apparently gunshots through the panel that was broken out by the cricket bat - look at the pictures of the broken door. You only see two bullet holes - that is because the others are in the part that was broken out and not seen in the photos.

ETA: Here is a picture of the door with bullet holes. If you click the link it will take you to the original picture, which is much more graphic (Warning!)

 

[Madeleine74]

I agree that it is intuitively hard to grasp that 4 witnesses were mistaken about hearing a woman scream - but we already have one witness who has confirmed that she thought the screams were a woman but it was actually Oscar (whose voice her husband recognized).

BBM

When I heard that testimony it made me wonder how the husband would know what Oscar sounds like when he screams (seemingly like a woman in great distress). Is it possible the husband was wrong and it was not Oscar screaming at that time and all the other witnesses are, in fact, correct?

There seemed to be a lot of screaming going on that night. To believe it was all Oscar and none of the screams before the shots were (or could be) Reeva, does not make sense to me.

 

[minor4th]

BIB - i think if you look again your deduction is incorrect. Check out the timeline in Harmony2's thread.


This was not the woman screaming before the second lot of shots heard by Dr Stipp and the other witnesses. This was the testimony of Mrs Van. W who thought she heard a woman crying loudly, but was told by her husband that he recognised it to be OP. This crying came AFTER the shots and Reeva's death, so cannot be used to show that Reeva didn't scream earlier.

It doesn't matter - she heard screaming that she thought was a woman, but it was Oscar. Therefore, Oscar screams like a woman unless she is lying.

 

[minor4th]

BBM

When I heard that testimony it made me wonder how the husband would know what Oscar sounds like when he screams (seemingly like a woman in great distress). Is it possible the husband was wrong and it was not Oscar screaming at that time and all the other witnesses are, in fact, correct?

There seemed to be a lot of screaming going on that night. To believe it was all Oscar and none of the screams before the shots were (or could be) Reeva, does not make sense to me.

Of course it's possible. But "possible" is not enough to get a conviction of premeditated murder.

If there are two theories, and either could be true - then that is reasonable doubt.

There is no way to reconcile all of the witnesses' statements. They cannot all be 100% accurate. That doesn't mean any of them are lying - but it does mean that at least some of them are mistaken or have remembered or perceived things incorrectly. You have to discount at least one witnesses' statement, so which one is mistaken and why?

 

[curiousjo]

OP has holes in his story that are concerning...

1. He never mentioned an argument - yet several neighbors heard yelling for a full hour! HUGE Red flag!
2. When he fired shots at RS, she would have screamed - so he would have stopped firing after the 1st one (there was a pause), when he realized it was her. He did not.
3. He did not call 911 immediately - even though there were 4-5 cell phones in the bathroom.
4. He told security guard he was "fine".
5. He mentioned that he was fearful of home invasions- however it was a secure complex with none in past 2 years. He must feel secure sleeping with windows open!
6. He said lights were off, yet doctor saw lights on. Why lie?
7. If RS in street clothes at 3am - then she was planning on leaving. And no one does yoga at 2-3 am!
8. If RS with multiple phones in a locked bathroom - then she was scared and trying to call for help or snooping on his phones....
9. I don't buy the story about sleeping on different side of bed due to shoulder.
10. I don't buy the fan story.
11. The electronics will probably tell the story. Convenient that OP couldn't remember password! Obviously, there was something on the cell that he did not want seen!
12. No way that OP yells like a girl! No way that 2 voices can overlap if one is dead - it was RS screaming and OP yelling! The doctor is very credible witness.

Just my opinion.

 

[Madeleine74]

Of course it's possible. But "possible" is not enough to get a conviction of premeditated murder.

If there are two theories, and either could be true - then that is reasonable doubt.

There is no way to reconcile all of the witnesses' statements. They cannot all be 100% accurate. That doesn't mean any of them are lying - but it does mean that at least some of them are mistaken or have remembered or perceived things incorrectly. You have to discount at least one witnesses' statement, so which one is mistaken and why?

All true, however, it won't be just one ear witness (or even only all the ear witnesses taken collectively) who will be the basis for a conviction of PM if the judge decides that way.

I assume the judge will utilize all the testimony and all the evidence to determine her decision. If there are (for example) 8 witnesses who say they heard what they claim was a female screaming and one of the witnesses' spouses says those screams were Oscar, the judge will have to decide which is more credible, unless she disregards all the ear witnesses' testimonies because it's impossible to know who was correct and who was incorrect.

Given that only 1 week of testimony has elapsed and there are probably another 8 weeks or more to go, we know PM has not been proven yet because if it was the state would have rested and would not need to put on any more witnesses.

I personally find it reasonable to conclude that both Reeva & Oscar were screaming that night.

 

[wishIknewmore]

I'm interested to hear what OP says he did in the minutes between the time the 1st call to Stander and once Dr. Stipp and Stander arrived. Granted the timeline we have may not be accurate but if we go by OP's affidavit and the phone calls, OP was running back in forth quite a bit during the first 2-3 minutes of the shooting which occured . He accomplished quite a bit but what did he accomplish during the next 5-10 minutes? Let's review OP's Affidavit:

"I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander ("Stander") who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help. I went downstairs to open the front door.
I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital. I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived. Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms."

It makes it sound like this took only a few minutes but the timeline is indicating it was closer to 8 minutes. Perhaps he was on the phone with Netcare or perhaps he was trying to stop the bleeding or resuscitate her. Maybe he was in shock. Still, it seems quite a long time if you are trying to get someone to the hospital.

 

[Madeleine74]

I'm interested to hear what OP says he did in the minutes between the time the 1st call to Stander and once Dr. Stipp and Stander arrived.

And (to jump off your thought, wishIknewmore) if what OP says he did in those minutes matches his written statement from the bail hearing and how closely it matches. I'm assuming here that OP will take the stand, though I realize the defense could always decide later that he won't.

 

[sorrell skye]

I wouldn't rely on WAT (wildabouttrial) to post complete archived versions of the trial proceedings. I have just spent the better part of an hour (or more) searching through Day 4 (Thursday, March 6) of the trial, and Dr. Stipp's testimony during direct examination by prosecutor Nel is apparently missing.

I finally found what I was looking for on youtube.

[video=youtube;dFZA03eu9NM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZA03eu9NM[/video]

After Dr. Stipp rendered what medical assistance he could and realized he couldn't do anything for Reeva because her injuries were too serious, he went outside. He said Mr. Stander was outside and he asked him "Is the ambulance was on its way?", and Mr. Stander said, No, he hadn't called the ambulance yet.

So Dr. Stipp called a hospital's ER and asked them to send an ambulance & was told by them that he needed to call an ambulance service, which Mr. Stander then did, and then Stander handed Stipp the phone & Stipp spoke with the dispatcher, described what happened, the nature of the injuries, and an ambulance was sent out.

Dr. Stipp stated that he was unaware that it was OP's house, and also said that Mr. Stander referred to OP as "Oscar".

While outside waiting for the ambulance to arrive, Dr. Stipp was at one point talking to Mr. Stander, and he stated that at one stage Mrs. Stander arrived. He said Mr. Stander's daughter was also on the scene at that time. They were all outside talking, but Dr. Stipp doesn't remember the specifics of what they were talking about, only that they were concerned about what happened, and Dr. Stipp said that Mrs. Stander said she hoped "This doesn't get out in the papers".

The ambulance arrived a short while after that.

Dr. Stipp said to Stander "I'm of no use further to anyone". They exchanged phone numbers; Dr. Stipp got in his car and drove back home.

Dr. Stipp went on to testify that about 4:17 a.m. that same morning his phone rang. It was Mr. Stander notifying him that OP's lawyer may be calling him.

 

[minor4th]

Are there phone records that show that? Is it still in dispute? I am not certain. It might have been made by the phantom 5th phone. I would like more clarification.


one of the reasons I am confused is the request OP made later for Stander to call an ambulance.

Yes, there are phone records that Roux was referring to that Oscar called NetCare at 3:20. We haven't seen the actual phone records but the judge has them and Nel did not argue with this or object.

From what I can gather, Oscar called Stander just before he called NetCare.

The later call to the ambulance was at 3:28 (according to phone records), and Stander called from Stipp's phone I believe.

I do believe that it was the 5th phone from which Oscar called NetCare and made the first call to security where only crying was heard. That might explain why the state first alleged that Oscar did not call for help - they did not, at that time, have the 5th phone or the data, but they do now, and I believe they have abandoned that claim.

 

[shane13]

OP has holes in his story that are concerning...

1. He never mentioned an argument - yet several neighbors heard yelling for a full hour! HUGE Red flag!
2. When he fired shots at RS, she would have screamed - so he would have stopped firing after the 1st one (there was a pause), when he realized it was her. He did not.
3. He did not call 911 immediately - even though there were 4-5 cell phones in the bathroom.
4. He told security guard he was "fine".
5. He mentioned that he was fearful of home invasions- however it was a secure complex with none in past 2 years. He must feel secure sleeping with windows open!
6. He said lights were off, yet doctor saw lights on. Why lie?
7. If RS in street clothes at 3am - then she was planning on leaving. And no one does yoga at 2-3 am!
8. If RS with multiple phones in a locked bathroom - then she was scared and trying to call for help or snooping on his phones....
9. I don't buy the story about sleeping on different side of bed due to shoulder.
10. I don't buy the fan story.
11. The electronics will probably tell the story. Convenient that OP couldn't remember password! Obviously, there was something on the cell that he did not want seen!
12. No way that OP yells like a girl! No way that 2 voices can overlap if one is dead - it was RS screaming and OP yelling! The doctor is very credible witness.

Just my opinion.

CJ:
A major part of OP's defense is that no argument ever occurred.

This is because the state has said its PM charge is based on the argument leading to OP's desire to kill Reeva.