Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[katydid23]

But I keep reading that there's no way a cricket bat hitting the door can sound like gunshots.

I do not believe your scenario is likely for another reason - according to Roux there is forensic evidence showing that the gunshots came before the bat breaking the door. There are apparently gunshots through the panel that was broken out by the cricket bat - look at the pictures of the broken door. You only see two bullet holes - that is because the others are in the part that was broken out and not seen in the photos.

ETA: Here is a picture of the door with bullet holes. If you click the link it will take you to the original picture, which is much more graphic (Warning!)

Right. But couldn't the bullets have entered the panels AFTER they were broken off, and inside the toilet room?

 

[Madeleine74]

My problem with this trial is that the defense lawyer is testifying moreso than the actual witnesses. For instance, if Roux says a cricket bat hitting a wooden door sounds just like a bullet from a 9mm pistol, why should anyone have to take his word for it? The evidence was not submitted and it's Roux's opinion, which is not evidence.

And it would be up to the judge in this case (since there's no jury) to determine the validity of the sound (i.e. deciding if a cricket bat hitting OP's door sounds exactly like a 9mm pistol being shot through the same door).

I realize SA is a different legal system and all... I don't like it!

 

[minor4th]

When did the cries that confused these two happen? After the last "volley" of sounds? Because if so then she must have been mistaken. Bat or gun, Reeva was dead and it had to have been Oscar crying. And if Oscar's cries can be mistaken for a woman's maybe his screams can too?

I believe it was after everything - after all the shots.

 

[MeeBee]

Right now Eastern Daylight Time in the US is 12:46am. And according to Google, South Africa is 6:46am.

It's a six hour time difference for EST and seven for CST.

 

[minor4th]

Right. But couldn't the bullets have entered the panels AFTER they were broken off, and inside the toilet room?

I'm not following. How could the bullets have entered the panels after it was broken out? You mean he shot the panel while it was on the floor?

 

[MeeBee]

I believe it was after everything - after all the shots.

Makes sense.

 

[Trooper]

My problem with this trial is that the defense lawyer is testifying moreso than the actual witnesses. For instance, if Roux says a cricket bat hitting a wooden door sounds just like a bullet from a 9mm pistol, why should anyone have to take his word for it? The evidence was not submitted and it's Roux's opinion, which is not evidence.

And it would be up to the judge in this case (since there's no jury) to determine the validity of the sound (i.e. deciding if a cricket bat hitting OP's door sounds exactly like a 9mm pistol being shot through the same door).

I realize SA is a different legal system and all... I don't like it!

the Judge is well aware of what is evidence, and what is opinion..

Roux asks the questions and proposes the theory, but the witnesses answer to the judge, not Roux.. You'll note that no witness has been reprimanded by the judge, as yet. Roux has been, 4 times.. the only request the judge has made of some witnesses is to raise their voice a tad.. they can take as long as they like and even have a little cry and a break as far as the judge is concerned..

Every now than then , the Prosecutor , Nels objects and so far his objections have carried the consensus. Plenty of leeway is given to Roux, the defence, because there is no jury to influence.. only the judge.. a formidable peer to both the prosecutor and the defence in the matter of law. Hang in there..

 

[Estelle]

From my reading of the last posts on this thread and my knowledge of the case before the trial, the worst case scenario for Pistorius is if the following can be proven:

1. In between the first shot (and two echoes according to Shane) that Dr Stipp heard, Pistorius IMO had 10-17 minutes to prepare for what he was going to do AFTER he killed Reeva and how he could tamper with the crime scene. I think Dr Stipp said it was about 10 minutes in between the two volleys of shots heard but the media used to say 17 minutes. So even assuming 10 minutes, there was plenty of time for Pistorius to prepare the scene in advance and it is suspected that he could have phoned his brother and/or lawyer for advice before the last volley of shots. IMO in that time, he made a decision that he had no choice but to murder Reeva because of what she perhaps had found out about him which would be damaging to his reputation or what he had already done to her that he did not want anyone to know about - hence his need to hide the body. If there is no body ever found, the murderer has a much better chance of getting away with it and she would have been a missing person. So is it my belief that OP, in that gap between the two volleys of shots, went down the stairs and prepared his car for a quick getaway with the body. IMO there was not enough time to do it later. He knew he could pretend that he was taking her to the hospital and it was important that an ambulance was not called.

2. It appears that Stander and Oscar are on first name terms and there could have been some collusion between them as others have said. In normal circumstances, an ambulance and police should have been called immediately by Stander. An ambulance was only called on the insistence of Dr Stipp.

3. IMO Reeva was already dead when OP carried her down the stairs and he knew that but he desperately wanted to contaminate the crime scene himself by not leaving it where it was so they could not tell what the position the body was in at time of death and it was a good excuse for him to drag her body out over the blood over the floor to confuse things even further. IMO he knew she was already dead when he got her downstairs and he faked that he was giving CPR but it was already too late.

4. IMO only for Baba and Dr Stipp arriving when they did, OP's planned escape was stopped. Maybe Stander had agreed with Pistorius' request not to phone the ambulance or police until Pistorius had made his getaway and a cleanup had been done.

5. Do we know exactly when OP's brother was called as he may have been tasked with the cleanup?

Question One: Where does the cricket bat come into all this? I am convinced that Dr Stipp is correct in hearing two volleys of gunshots and nothing of the cricket bat sounds. As the door panel was knocked out by something, maybe it could have been the impact of the gunshots or he was able to push it out easily immediately with the bat or even with his hands as he would have to have done it very quickly as at least two gun shots seem to have gone through the door. On the photo of the toilet door, there is only evidence of two gunshots there.

Question Two: Estelle Van der Merwe said she heard female and male voices from about 1.56am as in an argument for about an hour before. Wasn't it later after the gunshots that she heard a male voice from the balcony calling help? Wouldn't Reeva had been dead by this stage? And this was when her husband said it was OP sounding like a woman. This does not imply that all the female screams she heard that night were from OP only possibly the one she heard after RS was already dead. But she has not retracted what he heard or said as a result. Could her husband be colluding with the Pistorius camp? Or did he just make an assumption that as it was coming from OP's house, it was likely to be him - not a woman. When did he say this? Is her husband going to be a witness? I am suspicious of this evidence as it is exactly what the Defence would want someone to say so that it casts suspicion on all the female screams heard. Both Mr Merwe and Mr Stander seem to have known OP so IMO what they say may not be impartial.

 

[katydid23]

I'm not following. How could the bullets have entered the panels after it was broken out? You mean he shot the panel while it was on the floor?

We don't know how the panels landed. So maybe one was leaning up against a wall, or on top of the toilet bowl, or on the victim's leg. Lots of possible scenarios in which a bullet ricocheted through a panel.

I can see a very possible scenario, for the bat to come first. They are arguing, maybe over some suspicious texts on the cell, either his or hers, and she runs into the bathroom with the cell, and locks the door. She is apparently standing facing the door, perhaps trying to keep it closed, and he grabs the bat and starts smashing it open. She begins screaming at the top of her lungs, and that enrages him even more, so he grabs his gun and ends it.

I have to say that the above scenario makes much more sense to me than his version of events.

 

[Madeleine74]

I'm surprised that OP can remember (or claim to remember) all his movements from that night. It was such a massive bunch of chaos, what with screaming and sounds and shots and all the movements he claims to have made.

Had it been me I doubt I would have been able to construct a detailed narrative beyond some big moments that would be indelible. But all these little things like, "at this point I turned on the light," "I opened the front door," "I picked up my phone," etc etc. How can he remember all of it? And that makes me wonder how much of his narrative is manufactured.... (just sayin').

 

[gajonka]

BBM

Just had a thought... I wonder if Oscar was wearing pants? Dr. Stipp saw Oscar kneeling next to Reeva, he also saw him walk up and down the stairs. If Oscar was wearing shorts, surely he would have noticed the prosthetics and realized it was blade runner (knowing that he lived somewhere in the complex). And here we are, back to what they were wearing. What is the likelihood that Oscar wore pants to bed?

Salinger Rules!!!!


OK- so - 60 minutes and counting??? Wait- LOOKS like 2:30 am start - so we are officially in pre-trial my mega sleuths///

Was thinking about how to get a profile on the judge... find out what her deal is.


Love ya,
The G

 

[MeeBee]

Salinger Rules!!!!


OK- so - 60 minutes and counting???

Was thinking about how to get a profile on the judge... find out what her deal is.


Love ya,
The G

I looked her up and found that she is an outspoken advocate against violence toward women. Probably because she used to be a social worker.

 

[Trooper]

Salinger Rules!!!!


OK- so - 60 minutes and counting??? Wait- LOOKS like 2:30 am start - so we are officially in pre-trial my mega sleuths///

Was thinking about how to get a profile on the judge... find out what her deal is.


Love ya,
The G

This same judge sentenced a rapist to 242 years prison, no parole. Just late last year. Two hundred and forty two years.. no numerical mistake.

 

[minor4th]

We don't know how the panels landed. So maybe one was leaning up against a wall, or on top of the toilet bowl, or on the victim's leg. Lots of possible scenarios in which a bullet ricocheted through a panel.

I can see a very possible scenario, for the bat to come first. They are arguing, maybe over some suspicious texts on the cell, either his or hers, and she runs into the bathroom with the cell, and locks the door. She is apparently standing facing the door, perhaps trying to keep it closed, and he grabs the bat and starts smashing it open. She begins screaming at the top of her lungs, and that enrages him even more, so he grabs his gun and ends it.

I have to say that the above scenario makes much more sense to me than his version of events.

I disagree that it makes more sense.

I'm sure the ballistics will bear this out. According to the State's expert, Oscar shot through the door while he was likely wearing his prosthetics and from a distance of greater than 60 cm. You would think there would be some mention if 2 of the shots were at a different angle.

Aside from that, Reeva was struck directly by three of the 4 shots - he could not have shot her directly through a panel that was laying on the floor or propped against a wall.

 

[gajonka]

This same judge sentenced a rapist to 242 years prison, no parole. Just late last year. Two hundred and forty two years.. no numerical mistake.

ty, ty Mee Bee and Trooper. Dazzling touches continue.

Looks like OP is stumped, a;hem, I mean F&%^%#ed... However, this trial is associated with the phrase - trial of the century, next OJ simpson for a reason... will be difficult to put a national hero in the clinky clink... RD maybe...
Kindest,.G

 

[gajonka]

Right. But couldn't the bullets have entered the panels AFTER they were broken off, and inside the toilet room?

Great post.

Look at the strike zone on that door.

Bullet Entry.

Keen to strike "intruder" as he is "busted" by ( in OP's demented, yet impressively accomplished mind) the super-runner, South-African HERO/ Intruder stifling robber killer and protector of his lover who he doesn't even consider alive as he goes about his business...

... but the point...

Look at those bullet holes- the target clearly identified as sitting on the potty!

Wow...

 

[MeeBee]

I disagree that it makes more sense.

I'm sure the ballistics will bear this out. According to the State's expert, Oscar shot through the door while he was likely wearing his prosthetics and from a distance of greater than 60 cm. You would think there would be some mention if 2 of the shots were at a different angle.

Aside from that, Reeva was struck directly by three of the 4 shots - he could not have shot her directly through a panel that was laying on the floor or propped against a wall.

The state has changed their assertion that Oscar was wearing his legs while he shot the door due to their own ballistics expert contradicting that theory.

 

[lisasalinger]

Is there any chance that shots were fired outside, hence no additional bullet holes in the wall, casings on the ground, etc. I know that's a real long shot here, but just thinking out of the box about the additional gunshots heard by Stipp.

When it all boils down, we really have about a minute of time that we're stumbling over.

Stipp is woken up by what sounds like 3 shots. Maybe it wasn't exactly 3. (oh crap, do I sound like Roux?) There could have been screaming beforehand but it didn't wake them up. I can't explain that, but it's possible. He says he was up and on the balcony within moments, which translate to seconds for him. He heard the screams, saw the bathroom light on, went back inside and picked up his phone to call security. While he is dialing, the second round of shots go off. This sounds to me like a very brief window of time, could even be less than a minute.

Burger & Johnson hear screams then a gunshot. A pause... then 3 more gunshots. Maybe the pause was longer than they realize. They heard screams throughout the shots, so to hear screaming there was some time occurring between shots.

It could be that these 4 shots happened within a 30-60 second window of time and we're all just hung up on how long the pause was after the first one. When an unexpected traumatic event is happening to you, you really have no sense of complete accurate time. All you can do is estimate because your senses are so rattled.

Am I making sense or do I need to go to bed?

 

[gajonka]

The state has changed their assertion that Oscar was wearing his legs while he shot the door due to their own ballistics expert contradicting that theory.

Really?

I thought the jury was still out on this -

with downward trajectory paths supporting the legs/state and

flat trajectory supporting the defense/stumps

AND that we are not privy to the paths yet... how do you know this? Thought it was going to be one of those "moments?"

Thanks,
G

 

[Trooper]

ty, ty Mee Bee and Trooper. Dazzling touches continue.

Looks like OP is stumped, a;hem, I mean F&%^%#ed... However, this trial is associated with the phrase - trial of the century, next OJ simpson for a reason... will be difficult to put a national hero in the clinky clink... RD maybe...
Kindest,.G

This isn't South Africa s first national hero to come unstuck.. far from.. Hansie Cronje,, from a very similar background to Oscar, that is, Afrikaans, white, expensively educated, from a level of even stronger class enclave , in Blomfontein, than Oscar, was completely bought undone.. it wasn't murder, it was match fixing but it bought down severe embarrassment to most South Africans.

He had captained South Africa's cricket team to a strong position worldwide, leading it into the light , so to speak , after the collapse of the Apartheid regime.. everyone loved Hansie.. Hansie was what the new SA was all about.. integration, sporting prowess, and a little strong vein of Christian evangelism running thru it like a bass riff.. Hansie would often pray on the field, and encouraged everyone else, opponents, his own team to follow his example of upright and the straightest values...

Then in 2000, it was found that Hansie had been taking bribes and fixing matches all the time..all over the world.. even seducing young team members into the vortex of corruption..

a HUGE and LONG RUNNING kerfuffle ensued. Hansie had to confess publicly in a trial. It was the biggest scandal cricket wise in the world. he got banned for life from cricket anywhere on this planet..he challenged this banning but it was defeated in 2001.

he died, mysteriously in a plane crash in 2002.