TRIAL OF CHAD DAYBELL CHARGED WITH MURDER OF JJ VALLOW, TYLEE RYAN AND TAMMY DAYBELL #2

[Pipersand]

I don't think JP is doing a great job here - in cross, he continually restates all of the prosecution's evidence (giving it even greater resonance) before his "by this, you aren't trying to say ...." "questions". JP's comments may ultimately be disregarded by the jury - so what they could recall most will be the evidence actually led by the prosecution and restated by JP. Its like hearing it twice. I think trial advocacy would suggest JP leave a lot of this fact finding alone since it isn't definitive to CD's guilt, and JP should just address the "could be otherwise" in argument. Thankfully Boyce is shutting down any chance of JP's rebuttal for a lot of the witnesses - it was so painful to sit through and ultimately I think may have been more beneficial to CD's conviction than acquittal. But I am a bit worried about how the prosecution will clearly show that CD was driving the bus - he was. No question in my mind. CD led, manipulated and commanded all of this for his own selfish motives. LV. MG. AC. ZP. These are people without an independent moral compass who wanted what CD was promising because those promises fit within what they wanted. If CD had not been part of this, Ty and JJ (and Tammy) would be here now. LV was pathetic but CD drove the bus.

 

[Snoopster]

AFAIK none of these evil people (Lori, Alex, Chad) are known to have ever said "Let's kill people, and work on it together." In place of that, we have the light and dark ratings conversations, and the idea they were about killing people (rather than just a spiritual evaluation of sorts).

Maybe I'm alone in thinking this, but in the LVD trial, imo there was a lot of hearsay and pure speculation used to create the now-accepted interpretation of what "dark" means, and her attorneys didn't offer challenges or objections or aggressive cross-examination to such testimony, and were incredibly passive when that lingo was just assumed to be insider-speak for a murder scheme. So to me it will be interesting - and very pivotal - to see if this defense offers aggressive, smart cross-examination and challenges to that narrative in this trial, and if so, if it will stand up. I think that's the biggest hurdle to get past, in order to see Chad getting what he has earned by his evil acts.

I know that many of us get upset with defense counsel, particularly where we strongly believe in the guilt of the accused. Having said that, I think Prior is doing an excellent job. It IS his job...and it keeps the legal system in balance.

While I want to give him kudos, and while I'm frustrated with some of his questions and actions, I still believe that Chad is guilty and I believe that the jury will be able to "see" the truth of the evidence.

 

[Snoopster]

I don't think JP is doing a great job here - in cross, he continually restates all of the prosecution's evidence (giving it even greater resonance) before his "by this, you aren't trying to say ...." "questions". JP's comments may ultimately be disregarded by the jury - so what they could recall most will be the evidence actually led by the prosecution and restated by JP. Its like hearing it twice. I think trial advocacy would suggest JP leave a lot of this fact finding alone since it isn't definitive to CD's guilt, and JP should just address the "could be otherwise" in argument. Thankfully Boyce is shutting down any chance of JP's rebuttal for a lot of the witnesses - it was so painful to sit through and ultimately I think may have been more beneficial to CD's conviction than acquittal. But I am a bit worried about how the prosecution will clearly show that CD was driving the bus - he was. No question in my mind. CD led, manipulated and commanded all of this for his own selfish motives. LV. MG. AC. ZP. These are people without an independent moral compass who wanted what CD was promising because those promises fit within what they wanted. If CD had not been part of this, Ty and JJ (and Tammy) would be here now. LV was pathetic but CD drove the bus.

I see that we have different opinions regarding JP's effectiveness. I think he's trying to do anything he can. I appreciate your comments about his strategy. It's given me more things to ponder.
Thank you for your insight.

 

[lightofmine99]

Do we have a COD for Tylee? I didn’t know that.

No. Her COD is listed as "homicide by unspecified means." This descriptor is given when it is not clear what exactly caused the decedent to die but the overall circumstances heavily imply homicide or unscrupulous concealment.

Her remains were destroyed to the point very little could be done with them outside of confirming they were hers...

 

[Pipersand]

Snoopster, your thoughts are also welcome! Love this forum as a place to express differing opinions!!!! I too will keep your comments in mind!

 

[Tricia]

Hey Everyone,
Tonight, at 10:30 Eastern, we welcome Lauren Matthias from Hidden True Crime and Megan Conner. Megan is Lori Vallow Daybell's first cousin. Hope you will join us.

 

[Riverdoc]

It's interesting that early on, Alex wasn't part of the team. He was not a believer. Lori told her inner circle that he had not lived multiple lives. It all changed after a couple of months and then he was persuaded to murder Charles.
Had Lori and Alex not moved to Rexburg, perhaps Chad would not have murdered Tammy on his own. It was probably always planned for Alex to do the job, just like he did it with Charles.

Chad /aka trapped Harry Potter certainly fantasized about an untimely
death of Tammy for years

 

[Riverdoc]

I thought MG said most of what she learned CD said came from LVD telling her what he said. When you say you reviewed her testimony - was that in LVD trial or CD Preliminary Hearing? Or better yet, can you post a link? Apparently I need to refresh my memory too lol

This is Audrey, not Melanie. Seems like she knew Chad before he introduced her to Lori. She went to dinner with Chad, Tammy, and Garth at least once. She described Garth as very close to his mother.

 

[Ruminations]

I know that many of us get upset with defense counsel, particularly where we strongly believe in the guilt of the accused. Having said that, I think Prior is doing an excellent job. It IS his job...and it keeps the legal system in balance.

While I want to give him kudos, and while I'm frustrated with some of his questions and actions, I still believe that Chad is guilty and I believe that the jury will be able to "see" the truth of the evidence.

Well, I think when his attempts to reframe facts become misstating facts, he is crossing a line. He does things like say, "Alex Cox and Lori had several accounts together, right?" When it is one account.

He has a fair defense point, he could say "Chad snd Lori didn't have any joint accounts; even Alex and Lori had a joint account," or something like that, and I would think, "well played," rather than "liar."

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

those final money transfers look bad for chad. he knew they’d find something.

 

[Tanager]

I am having a really tough time with the idea that either LVD or CD truly believed that killing the children was a divine mission. I've been listening to this idea on HTC, and I just can't accept that either one thought to themselves privately that they had to kill the children for any reason other than freedom from obstacles to their relationship and money. The theology was just a more palatable justification to raise the idea.

Another poster (I wish I could remember who) posited some time ago that they were mutually conning each other. I think this is spot on.

I think they possibly held some earnest religious beliefs that they bonded over, but then they kept upping the ante with the spiritual powers they were claiming, and soon they must have each thought that they were the only one who was bluffing, so they'd better keep up the act in order to maintain the privileges of the relationship and the power that was imparted by their roles in the new religion.

CD and LVD knew these supernatural powers did not exist within themselves regardless of whether they thought they were happening to the other.

I think every one of us would know if we truly did or did not have a astral sex portal in our home or no longer needed food and sleep due to our divinity. That is, with the exception of a person experiencing involuntary hallucinations and delusions which don't appear at your convenience to serve your desires. People who are experiencing legitimate mental illness symptoms cannot dial them up or down as needed to facilitate sex, to appear sane publicly, or to cover criminal behavior.

It also is near impossible for me to square up the alleged deeply spiritual mission with a coincidental profitable murder spree. I can't accept that the voluminous lies that were told to others were anything other than acts of guilty self-preservation. If you truly believe that your cause is righteous and you are given godlike powers, then there is no reason to lie about your actions to the mortals around you. Also, if you believe you can perform miracles, you probably don't have to resort to insurance fraud. Just wish the money into your pocket.

I think they are both fakes following a fellow fake follower in a hideous circle because of the perks. It is hard to accept that people can be this evil, selfish, and cruel, but they can.

On the other hand, most people are good.

 

[Niner]

Thursday, April 18th:
*Trial continues (Day 6) (@ 8:30am MT) & Motions Hearing (@ 3:30pm MT) – ID – Joshua Jaxon (JJ) Vallow (7) & Tylee Ashlyn Ryan (16) (JJ last seen Sept. 23, 2019 & Tylee on Sept. 9, 2019, Rexburg; found June 9, 2020 buried in Daybell’s yard in Salem, ID) & Tamara “Tammy” Michelle Douglas Daybell (49) (died on Oct. 19, 2019 at her residence in Salem, ID; dob 5/4/70). – *Chad Guy Daybell (53/now 55) arrested (6/9/20) & indicted (5/25/21) & charged (5/26/21) & arraigned (6/9/21) with Count 1 (for Tylee): Conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder & grand theft by deception (for Daybell, Vallow & Alex Cox) & other co-conspirators. Count 2 (for Tylee): 1st degree murder. Count 3 (for JJ): Conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder & grand theft by deception. Count 4 (for JJ): 1st degree murder. Count 5 (for Tammy, 49, died 10/19/19): Conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder. Count 6 (for Tammy): 1st degree murder. Count 8 & 9: Insurance Fraud (Two counts of insurance fraud related to 2 different life insurance policies he had on Tammy). Plead not guilty. No bond. DA will seek DP. (Judge denied removing DP 3/14/24). Fremont County
Trial began on 4/1/24 with final jury selection & ended on 4/8/24. Jurors: 12 jurors & 6 alternates. [10 men & 8 women]. Jury will be sequestered during deliberations in the guilt phase thru the penalty phase.
Trial began on 4/10/24. (approx. 8 weeks) Court hours are 8:30am to 3pm Monday-Friday. Trial is being held in Ada County.
Judge Steven W. Boyce presiding. Prosecutors: Fremont County Prosecuting Attorney Lindsey Blake, Madison County Prosecuting Attorney Rob Wood, Special Attorney General Prosecutor Ingrid Batey & Fremont County Deputy Prosecuting Attorney Rocky Wixom & defense attorney John Prior.
Court info from 6/10/20 thru 3/29/24 & Jury Selection Day 1-6 (4/1-4/6/24) & thru 4/9/24 & Trial Day 1-4 (4/10-4/16/24) reference post #107 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...-tylee-ryan-and-tammy-daybell-2.710166/page-6
4/17/24 Wednesday, Trial Day 5: State witnesses: Rexburg Police Det. Chuck Kunsaitis [On Nov. 27, 2019, Kunsaitis became aware that Det. Hermosillo was conducted searching warrants at three townhomes on Pioneer Road: 174, 175 and 107. Kunsaitis walked through apartment 175 to look for evidence; he went thru the bank statements & financial accounts for the jurors]. FBI Forensic Accountant Michael Douglass [When he was brought into the investigation, he started building a spreadsheet and it got to include around 80 accounts].
For more info on direct see post #124 (article) here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...-tylee-ryan-and-tammy-daybell-2.710166/page-7
Trial continues on Thursday, 4/18/24.
AND:
*An Order to Show Cause hearing is scheduled on 4/18/24 @ 3:30pm per Judge Steven Boyce. A motion to delay the trial of Chad Daybell was filed late Friday night but little is known about why it was filed and what is contained in the motion. Terry Ratliff, a lawyer who practices in Mountain Home, filed the motion through the iCourt portal. Wendy Olson, an attorney hired by EastIdahoNews.com last year to argue for camera access during the trial, was served the motion, along with prosecutors & the defense. Judge Boyce instructed the attorneys not to disseminate the motion & on Tuesday, he signed an order sealing it. Boyce temporarily sealed the motion until he’s able to schedule a hearing to determine whether it will remain sealed “and set the substance of the motion for hearing [on 4/18].”

 

[iamshadow21]

snipped for focus

Do we have a COD for Tylee? I didn’t know that.

If you reread my post, you'll see the bit you snipped is talking about TAMMY, not Tylee. I did not talk about what specifically caused Tylee's death, because we do not know.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

I don't think JP is doing a great job here - in cross, he continually restates all of the prosecution's evidence (giving it even greater resonance) before his "by this, you aren't trying to say ...." "questions". JP's comments may ultimately be disregarded by the jury - so what they could recall most will be the evidence actually led by the prosecution and restated by JP. Its like hearing it twice. I think trial advocacy would suggest JP leave a lot of this fact finding alone since it isn't definitive to CD's guilt, and JP should just address the "could be otherwise" in argument. Thankfully Boyce is shutting down any chance of JP's rebuttal for a lot of the witnesses - it was so painful to sit through and ultimately I think may have been more beneficial to CD's conviction than acquittal. But I am a bit worried about how the prosecution will clearly show that CD was driving the bus - he was. No question in my mind. CD led, manipulated and commanded all of this for his own selfish motives. LV. MG. AC. ZP. These are people without an independent moral compass who wanted what CD was promising because those promises fit within what they wanted. If CD had not been part of this, Ty and JJ (and Tammy) would be here now. LV was pathetic but CD drove the bus.

I think playing the recording of Chad blessing Alex at this point in the trial was a masterstroke. I think it showed him as manipulating, a leader, and an attempt to reassure Alex that his wicked deeds were for a higher purpose, especially mentioning rescuing children, or words to that effect. And then there will be the evidence from ZP that the penny was starting to drop for him that he was their fall guy. I think Alex was not okay with himself, once the dust was starting to settle and his sister went into hiding.

 

[indicolite22]

I am having a really tough time with the idea that either LVD or CD truly believed that killing the children was a divine mission. I've been listening to this idea on HTC, and I just can't accept that either one thought to themselves privately that they had to kill the children for any reason other than freedom from obstacles to their relationship and money. The theology was just a more palatable justification to raise the idea.

All your observations are spot on. I remember Chad and Lori's exchange from August 2019. Lori asked him if there was a divine plan for the children, wondering if she needed to act on it. Chad replied (paraphrased), you're good and yes, there is a plan.

Another poster (I wish I could remember who) posited some time ago that they were mutually conning each other. I think this is spot on.

I think MG said in her first interview with Nate Eaton that L&C were lying to each other.

I think every one of us would know if we truly did or did not have a astral sex portal in our home or no longer needed food and sleep due to our divinity. That is, with the exception of a person experiencing involuntary hallucinations and delusions which don't appear at your convenience to serve your desires. People who are experiencing legitimate mental illness symptoms cannot dial them up or down as needed to facilitate sex, to appear sane publicly, or to cover criminal behavior.

Lori did reveal her godly status to non-believers (like Charles and her brother Adam) from time to time. She told Adam in all seriousness that she no longer had to eat due to her exaltation. Seeing his reaction, she added: I know you think I'm crazy.

 

[Ruminations]

This is Audrey, not Melanie. Seems like she knew Chad before he introduced her to Lori. She went to dinner with Chad, Tammy, and Garth at least once. She described Garth as very close to his mother.

I have always stored on the back of my mind that S Littlebear said something to the effect of 'Chad always kept Audrey in his back pocket because she was unmarried.'

He was suggesting she was a person to marry off to some like-minded 144 male person, since apparently they needed all childless couples for the apocalypse.

It's intriguing that Prior wanted to hammer home Audrey was buying a wedding dress while Lori was waiting out the completion of the murder she is convicted of being a co-conspirator in.

I'm doubtful it really is that relevant to the trial- the question for the trial is simply, did Chad further the conspiracies of three murders or not, but it is interesting. It brings Littlebear's weird comment about Audrey being Chad's spare unmarried woman out front for me.

MOO

 

[887sMtreme]

No. Her COD is listed as "homicide by unspecified means." This descriptor is given when it is not clear what exactly caused the decedent to die but the overall circumstances heavily imply homicide or unscrupulous concealment.

Her remains were destroyed to the point very little could be done with them outside of confirming they were hers...

That’s my understanding. We *don’t* know exactly what killed her. I was questioning the statement that she died from asphyxiation. I dearly hope it was quick and painless. It probably wasn’t. That poor girl. I do not support the death penalty but I could manage to set my objections aside more for this case than any other I’ve considered.

 

[indicolite22]

I have always stored on the back of my mind that S Littlebear said something to the effect of 'Chad always kept Audrey in his back pocket because she was unmarried.'

He was suggesting she was a person to marry off to some like-minded 144 male person, since apparently they needed all childless couples for the apocalypse.

It's intriguing that Prior wanted to hammer home Audrey was buying a wedding dress while Lori was waiting out the completion of the murder she is convicted of being a co-conspirator in.

I'm doubtful it really is that relevant to the trial- the question for the trial is simply, did Chad further the conspiracies of three murders or not, but it is interesting. It brings Littlebear's weird comment about Audrey being Chad's spare unmarried woman out front for me.

MOO

I still don't understand Audrey's role in the cult. Chad's groupie who became Lori's companion. Wasn't having her in the middle a risk? How much did she really know? She appeared very sensitive at Lori's trial, yet I can't feel too much sympathy for her tears, because none were shed for the actual victims.

 

[Ruminations]

You have just nailed my chief concern in this trial. Many people believe in the power of prayer regarding casting out evil spirits but they don’t go killing the bodies to get rid of the evil spirits - in fact they don’t believe the body has to die at all to evict the evil spirit. It is a spiritual battle for most and often involves prayer and spiritual warfare but not murder as the person is expected to live on after the spirit is forced out. JP will continue to try to show that CD had no idea that LVD & AC were going to take it into the physical realm and actually kill Tylee and JJ - that he thought thy were just praying for the spirits to flee.

If JP can convince the jury there is room for reasonable doubt whether CD knew they were physically going to kill the kids, it may not be so far fetched for him to also convince them that CD didn’t know that AC buried the bodies on his property or that perhaps he found out about the deaths after the crime and was only helping them cover it up after the fact. That would still show him guilty of a crime but not the crime of murder - still conspiracy but not conspiracy to commit murder.

Thankfully, they have the racoon and fire text from CD to TD within 15 minutes of AC leaving his property the day Tylee’s remains were put there And I don’t see any way for JP to explain how CD could have shot the racoon and burned the limbs in that 15 minutes after AC left so at the very least he had to have been at the fire pit with AC when Tylee’s remains were put there.

And hopefully none of the jurors will believe that TD died of natural causes and that CD had to have been the one to take her life whether he conspired with LVD & AC to do it or not.

I don’t think there’s any way CD will NOT be convicted but I do hope they tie up the conspiracy a bit better and that they show the jury how the leap was made from castings and prayer to murder and burial.

Well, Chad was the man with the death percentages, so there's that. It's hard to argue that the point wasn't death when you're cheering, "She's close [to dead]!"

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

I still don't understand Audrey's role in the cult. Chad's groupie who became Lori's companion. Wasn't having her in the middle a risk? How much did she really know? She appeared very sensitive at Lori's trial, yet I can't feel too much sympathy for her tears, because none were shed for the actual victims.

Yet... the 100% trust level.

I don't understand it either, but obviously, there is a story.

That trust level suggests they had major dirt on her, since she was a relative outsider, as you point out.

Of course the tears were not for the victims. That is true for all of the satellites orbiting the murderers, Gibb, Zulema, Emma. They cry and cry for themselves.

But that is to be expected. It's not like the murderers are going to attract empathic, ethical, brave friends. They are going to pick friends they can manipulate, and destroy any character strengths they had.

MOO