TRIAL OF CHAD DAYBELL CHARGED WITH MURDER OF JJ VALLOW, TYLEE RYAN AND TAMMY DAYBELL #3

[Ruminations]

Can someone explain to me the relevance of church clothes on a Sunday afternoon? I’m so confused by this.

I wonder, too. But I think the best hypothesis came from @indicolite22

Their theory is it is just another way Prior is trying to make it seem like Chad was away from Lori and Alex and "Miss Gibb" the whole murder weekend.

He's trying to account for hours of Chad's time on Sunday by saying he was in church much of the day.

Remember he kept trying to say for Melanie Gibb and David W that they hardly saw him in the townhome at all that weekend.

However, there hasn't been any testimony that he went to church that day for certain. Or that he stayed long. Nor do we know if he claimed he was going to church or a meeting related to church business, thus wore "Church clothes," and then went off to further his murderous project.

MOO

 

[Ruminations]

JMO: For some reason it seems very important for JP to show that Chad went directly from the church to the property viewing. Witnesses claim that in between, he and Lori showed them an imaginary building in the nearby park. Maybe he doesn't want to be placed together with Lori on the last day JJ was alive.

ETA: That's probably not it, because the realtor said that he picked up Chad at his home. Church clothes would only confirm that an event happened on a Sunday.

LOL, this wasn't there when I answered the same question.

I think the general idea was to establish that Chad was busy all day and wasn't with his co conspirators.

The realtor was motivated to get all info out, IMO. Now I want to go back and see if he was asked about picking Chad up, or if he slipped that information in answering another question.

MOO

 

[Nikynoo]

I wonder, too. But I think the best hypothesis came from @indicolite22

Their theory is it is just another way Prior is trying to make it seem like Chad was away from Lori and Alex and "Miss Gibb" the whole murder weekend.

He's trying to account for hours of Chad's time on Sunday by saying he was in church much of the day.

Remember he kept trying to say for Melanie Gibb and David W that they hardly saw him in the townhome at all that weekend.

However, there hasn't been any testimony that he went to church that day for certain. Or that he stayed long. Nor do we know if he claimed he was going to church or a meeting related to church business, thus wore "Church clothes," and then went off to further his murderous project.

MOO

does JP think you need to wear 'murder' clothes when you murder someone?

 

[Nikynoo]

LOL, this wasn't there when I answered the same question.

I think the general idea was to establish that Chad was busy all day and wasn't with his co conspirators.

The realtor was motivated to get all info out, IMO. Now I want to go back and see if he was asked about picking Chad up, or if he slipped that information in answering another question.

MOO

I think he slipped it in when answering a question. Ron was not going to let JP change his narrative.

 

[Ruminations]

I think he slipped it in when answering a question. Ron was not going to let JP changes his narrative.

It cracks me up that Prior called him hostile.

IANAL, so maybe I'm not the best person to explain this. But a hostile witness is a designation by a judge. And once someone is a hostile witness, you can ask leading questions like, "Isn't it true that...."

For example, if you are prosecuting a case where a BFF of an accused drug dealer talks in circles on the stand and won't answer questions with yes/no, and the judge designates them as hostile, the prosecutor can say, "Were you with the accused when they met with the little dealer and the accused sold them xxxxx amount of drugs so they could distribute it?"

But on cross examination. you can always ask leading questions in scope. So Prior wouldn't get any advantage to calling him hostile unless he recalled him for the defense case. Which he didn't do.

MOO

 

[Love Never Fails]

Melaniece but not Tylee?

Correct. Just don’t think Lori or Chad even liked Tylee. Guess Tylee stood up to her mother.

 

[Love Never Fails]

IIRC, JP made the coroner confirm that the stomach wasn't really full, it just had contents in it. The ME hasn't testified yet.

I agree with you but after her saying her stomach wasn’t full, she stated the ME said it was. We are waiting for the ME testimony and the war of two ME experts, one from the State and one from Defense. I dread that part.

 

[Love Never Fails]

I wonder, too. But I think the best hypothesis came from @indicolite22

Their theory is it is just another way Prior is trying to make it seem like Chad was away from Lori and Alex and "Miss Gibb" the whole murder weekend.

He's trying to account for hours of Chad's time on Sunday by saying he was in church much of the day.

Remember he kept trying to say for Melanie Gibb and David W that they hardly saw him in the townhome at all that weekend.

However, there hasn't been any testimony that he went to church that day for certain. Or that he stayed long. Nor do we know if he claimed he was going to church or a meeting related to church business, thus wore "Church clothes," and then went off to further his murderous project.

MOO

And who cares? Maybe he dressed because he was meeting the realtor. My husband normally wears jeans but he would dress for a business meeting. We grew up in a different time and were taught to do that. Maybe that’s what Chad did.
Living two lives must take a lot out of a person. I hope he suffers for all he did to so many lives.

 

[aafromaa]

Can someone explain to me the relevance of church clothes on a Sunday afternoon? I’m so confused by this.

TigerLou said:
What time did they meet with the realtor?‘’

JP is trying to impeach DW and MG - if he is successful in getting the jury to believe that they are not being truthful about some things, he may be able to raise doubt about any of their testimony and that would cast doubt on the timeline of when JJ was killed and buried and I suspect give JP room to suggest that AC wasn’t burying JJ during the time period the pings put him on the Daybell property which has many suspecting CD had to have prepped the grave before AC got there with JJ’s body that Monday morning. JP has also suggested that DW was involved and went to CD’s property that Monday morning. Remember that JP is trying to create reasonable doubt regarding CD’s involvement. Suggesting DW was involved and/or destroying the timeline presented by the state are ways he is trying to do that.

As for when they met the realtor at the 80 acres property…. DW was not clear on this as he said late morning to early afternoon.

The relevance of CD being in his church clothes is that DW also said they went to the park where CD & LVD were telling him about the celestial building they saw and he also said this was late morning to early afternoon on Sunday.

JP is saying that both could not have happened on Sunday from late morning to early afternoon and CD & Ron the realtor also gone to church that day and even suggested the only time DW saw CD all weekend was those few moments at the 80 acre property on Sunday - implying of course that CD knew nothing about anything else that took place that weekend regarding JJ’s death and being buried on his property.

DW is difficult to follow - not sure that’s DW’s fault though as it may be more of how both the state and the defense asked their questions but here’s my take on what he said…

Saturday he may or may not have slept in - doesn’t recall - though MG said no because she never sleeps in. So it may be possible that DW’s day started earlier than he remembers and perhaps the park was earlier in the morning and not mid morning to early afternoon. Or perhaps the park was before church and the property after church.

But what DW said was both were late morning to early afternoon. Perhaps it was the same outing for DW & MG. Perhaps they left LVD’s and went to the park and met LVD & CD there and CD left there and went to church and LVD goes home to watch JJ while AC leads DW & MG to the property where CD & realtor Ron show up unexpectedly in their church clothes.

The jury doesn’t have the benefit of DW’s previous testimony from CD’s preliminary hearing or LVD’s trial but in one of those - LVD’s trial I think - DW said that CD & a realtor from church “left there” and came to the property as they were getting ready to leave. In his testimony at this trial he said he wasn’t sure that CD had been to services but that he had been attending his calling which would have been at the church and he & Ron “left there” to come to the property to meet with him but he didn’t want to discuss business on Sunday. Perhaps they “left” and then went back?

Now I don’t understand enough about LDS services or attending callings to give any more insight to the time schedules than that. Perhaps some of the other posts might help with that as several have discussed things like 2 hours of services or meetings after services and such.

Unfortunately, I do not think that either side cleared it up enough for the jury for them to understand either whether or not it is possible that both the trip to the Park and to the Property took place on Sunday.

 

[lightofmine99]

There is a good thread on the subreddit related to this case where someone asks what the reader would want to ask the Daybell children on cross.

Prosecutors can only question them based on what Prior asked of them. Prior is not as dumb as he’s been acting lately so unfortunately most of these good questions people brought up ITT won’t get to be asked. However I’m sure at least a few of them will.

This begs the question…what exactly could you ask Emma, Garth, etc. that wouldn’t open up Blake and Co. to ask things like, “Do you believe your father is a prophet of God?” or “If you believe Lori set up your father, why are you remaining in contact with her behind bars? If your father believes this, why would he insist you keep her commissary account filled?” Pretty much everything relates back to how godly and prophety Chad is.

Personally I would ask (assuming they do agree they think their father has special spiritual abilities): "Your father has referred to Lori as a goddess with spiritual powers. Do you believe she has powers?"

 

[aafromaa]

….
Prosecutors can only question them based on what Prior asked of them….

Snipped by me…

It’s true that the cross examination is limited to the scope of direct…but…the state is still presenting their case in chief and can still call any of the Daybell children to the stand and not be limited to the restrictions of cross examination. I think they might call Garth to talk about the night his mother died and after seeing that video of Emma with Chad in the police vehicle, I think they might call her too. We just don’t know who is on the state’s witness list because it is sealed.

 

[TigerLou]

does JP think you need to wear 'murder' clothes when you murder someone?

Or what constitutes as "grave digging" clothes? Lol

My cousins dug my grandfathers grave in the cemetery with shovels in their church clothes a couple years ago right after his funeral. (Not my LDS family--not that it matters lol)
Some people just roll like that. I'm sure you could murder, cheat on your wife, lie, skip church, dig a grave and many other things all while wearing church clothes!

 

[indicolite22]

Correct. Just don’t think Lori or Chad even liked Tylee. Guess Tylee stood up to her mother.

Chad labeled Tylee dark from the beginning - in October 2018. I suspect it was partly due to her father who was deemed extra dark. The rest of the family were mostly light at that point (including Charles and JJ), except for some of the spouses. Two months later Lori started fantasizing about Charles and JJ dying in an accident.

 

[lightofmine99]

I’ve read “children aren’t a part of the 114K” several times regarding the Firstborn Church or whatever we call Chad’s system officially. I don’t know if Chad’s group stated this officially or if it has just been inferred. Regardless, if his kids already believed the dark/light ratings, then how much more would they have believed, and what would’ve happened to Chad’s grandchildren? Would Colby and his children still have remained unscathed if this had continued?

 

[indicolite22]

Snipped by me…

It’s true that the cross examination is limited to the scope of direct…but…the state is still presenting their case in chief and can still call any of the Daybell children to the stand and not be limited to the restrictions of cross examination. I think they might call Garth to talk about the night his mother died and after seeing that video of Emma with Chad in the police vehicle, I think they might call her too. We just don’t know who is on the state’s witness list because it is sealed.

Will the state call any hostile witnesses at all? Did they at Lori's trial? MBP seemed the closest, but she got out of it.

 

[Ruminations]

There is a good thread on the subreddit related to this case where someone asks what the reader would want to ask the Daybell children on cross.

Prosecutors can only question them based on what Prior asked of them. Prior is not as dumb as he’s been acting lately so unfortunately most of these good questions people brought up ITT won’t get to be asked. However I’m sure at least a few of them will.

This begs the question…what exactly could you ask Emma, Garth, etc. that wouldn’t open up Blake and Co. to ask things like, “Do you believe your father is a prophet of God?” or “If you believe Lori set up your father, why are you remaining in contact with her behind bars? If your father believes this, why would he insist you keep her commissary account filled?” Pretty much everything relates back to how godly and prophety Chad is.

Personally I would ask (assuming they do agree they think their father has special spiritual abilities): "Your father has referred to Lori as a goddess with spiritual powers. Do you believe she has powers?"

I would try to get in something like, "Are you saying that _______who testified to her health was lying? Mistaken? It would be hard, because she can't be asked to speculate. But if prosecution gets the question out, it plants a seed. And if the defense over objects, it suggests to the jury they are trying to hide something because they are objecting on letting their own witness speak.

I would also try to get the message out that Emma is very loyal to her father (understandably!) and has reason to lie, while the witnesses that testified to her health do not. I guess by asking something like, "If she was very healthy, you're father could be in big trouble, couldn't he?"

If it is claimed she was using the fit-bit, I'd ask her if she was the one who removed it from Tammy's table the morning she died. Then I'd ask her why she didn't continue to use it after her death. And if she removed it, why if she didn't intend to use it after her death. And I would ask her to pin down certain days she used the Fitbit. Then I'd ask why she didn't tell this to LE. I woukd do everything I could to make the jury want to look again at the incredible level of activity Tammy engaged in daily.

MOO

 

[lightofmine99]

If possible I would also ask Emma why she thought it was necessary to hide her assisting her soon-to-be-arrested father with his banking from her husband Joseph.

Then watch the answer be something like, "Joe doesn't have a good relationship with my father" or "Joe dislikes him," to which I would further ask why the tension is there...MOO.

 

[indicolite22]

I’ve read “children aren’t a part of the 114K” several times regarding the Firstborn Church or whatever we call Chad’s system officially. I don’t know if Chad’s group stated this officially or if it has just been inferred. Regardless, if his kids already believed the dark/light ratings, then how much more would they have believed, and what would’ve happened to Chad’s grandchildren? Would Colby and his children still have remained unscathed if this had continued?

Colby isn't LDS, so this might have affected his fate in Chad's system. I'm sure he is dark now for calling Lori out.

 

[wnk]

Today's YouTube video link --

And Nate's thread --

https://twitter.com/x/status/1784952635306783127

As for who we'll see this week... I compared the witnesses in the LVD trial to the GRAND JURY LIST (ALLCAPS), with ones that have already been called crossed out.
1. Kay Woodcock
2. Brandon Boudreaux
3. RAY HERMOSILLO
4. JARED WILLMORE (Madison Co. - LVD & CD prison phone call)
5. JOE POWELL
6. MELANIE GIBB
7. Nathan Duncan
8. ZELUMA PASTENES (friend of LVD)
9. Colby Ryan
10. MARK SAARI
11. CHUCK KUNSAITIS
12. MIKE DOUGLASS
13. Scott Cowden (Chandler FD paSramedic re: CV's death)
14. Airel Werther (Chandler PD homicide re: CV's death)
15. Sandra Ynclan (Chandler PD homicide re: CV's death)
16. April Raymond (friend of LVD)
17. Nathan Moffatt (Chandler PD re: CV's death)
18. Sydney Woodbury Schenk
19. Josh Wilson
20. Wynn Hill
21. DAVID WARWICK
22. BRUCE MATTINGLY
23. BENJAMIN DEAN (FBI - TD phone data, including raccoon text)
24. DAVE STUBBS (Rexburg PD - electronic records, wedding photos)
25. Nicole Heideman
26. Nick Ballance (FBI - cell phone locations)
27. Summer Shiflet (LVD's sister)
28. Rick Schmitt (Rexburg PD - storage unit footage)
29. STEVE DANIELS (FBI forensics - excavation of JJ & TR's remains)
30. DR GARTH WARREN (forensic pathologist - JJ & TR's autopsies)
31. Dr Angi Christensen (FBI forensics - examination of TR's remains)
32. Douglas Halepaska (FBI forensics - tool marks on TR's bones)
33. David Sincerbeaux (ID State PD forensics - fire debris analysis)
34. RYLENE NOWLIN (ID State PD forensics - DNA to TR's remains)
35. KATHERINE DACE (forensic biologist - DNA on shovel & ax)
36. TARA MARTINEZ (forensics - AC's prints on plastic bag)
37. Samantha Gwilliam (TD's sister)
38. COLTER CANNON
39. HELENA KAAIAKAMANU (Fremont Co Sheriff - TD's paintball 911 call)
40. CHRISTINA WEST (Fremont Co Sheriff - 911 call for TD's death)
41. ALYSSA GREENHALGH
42. CAMMY WILMORE (Fremont Co EMT - TD's death)
43. Brenda Dye
44. Spencer Cook
45. Kelsey Harris
46. SHANNA MILLER
47. Keeley Coleman (DNA analyst - LVD's hair on duct tape)
48. RICKY WRIGHT (FBI - AC's GPS location)
49. DR. ERIK CHRISTENSEN (forensic pathologist - TD's cause of death)
50. BRUCE MATTINGLY
51. Alice Gilbert (TD's neighbor and friend - Daybells' relationship, widowhood/courtship, asking for $)
52. Todd Gilbert (TD's neighbor and friend - TD's funeral, LVD & CD courtship)
53. AUDREY BARATTIERO (LVD's friend - beliefs, negative spirits, threats)
54. VINCE KAAIAKAMANU
55. IAN PAWLOWSKI (husband of LVD's niece - beliefs, "spiritual attacks")
56. TAYLOR BALLARD (insurance agent - Daybells' health insur policy plans)
57. ANGELA YANCEY (school district admin - changes to TD's insurance policy)
58. Collin Nesbit (Kauai PD - serving documents in HI)
59. Ryan Pillar
60. DOUG HART
61. Nicholas Edwards (investigator for Idaho AG)

Witnesses from GRAND JURY LIST who did NOT testify at LVD’s trial:
RON BALL (Rexburg PD)
RANDY REESE (Rexburg PD)
HAILEY PARMER (Ballard Insurance)
GARTH DAYBELL (CD’s son)
JOE MURRAY (CD’s son-in-law)
MELANI BOUDERAUX PAWLOWSKI (LVD’s niece)
GARY LYU (FBI)
LAYNE KINGHORN (BYU-I)
EMMA MOSS (friend of Tylee?)
HEATHER DAYBELL (CD’s sister-in-law)
SANDRA BRIGGS (CD’s neighbor?)
MACKAY ABEGGLEN (?)

 

[Ruminations]

Will the state call any hostile witnesses at all? Did they at Lori's trial? MBP seemed the closest, but she got out of it.

I think a lot of the witnesses have a dash of hostile-witness features.

It's not that they don't want to testify at all, like MB the niece, but they don't want to testify fully due to trauma and shame. And trauma and shame could have honestly damaged their memories.

A witness that makes unresponsive, circular answers or refuses to answer a question for a non- legal reason, could be declared a hostile witness. Legal reasons to refuse to answer a question include privilege or right not to self incriminate.

"I dont recall" becomes the safest witness dodge.

I have no reason to believe that witnesses like Gibb broke the law. I think only shame and trauma makes them evasive or forgetful at times.

But Lori's niece might have some real self-incrimination issues with an attempted murder charge.

MOO