Try to keep an open mind, an open heart and an open eye.

[Mountain_Kat]

snip

Well, Peazzer, that's pretty much a conversation-stopper.

Nitpicker. :floorlaugh:

 

[SmoothOperator]

Powerful and longggggggg. :floorlaugh: :seeya:

.. Alright there, marge I obviously cannot argue with the looooooooong comment!!..lol.. Many times I put my apologies in for my severe flaw of being waaaay tooooo looooong winded.. Sometimes I figure oh, what the he!!, why even bother it'll only make it even looooooonger!! Besides most know when they come to one of my posts it's an, "oh, Lordy here she goes again!".. And then they either scroll on past to the next post.. or.. They take a few extra moments to see if I've got anything relevant to say or not..lol.. Sometimes I do, sometimes it seems as tho I don't.. Ya just never know..lol :crazy:

 

[tlcya]

And if you do I got your back. Hope the same, right?

Goes without saying my friend.

 

[ketel0ne]

Thank you for this thread. I expressed moo on this case a few days ago. I have tried to keep an open mind in this case. I just happen to be a person that used to never go with my gut feeling, full of self doubt. However, I won't discount any evidence that comes out. I am not about to criminalize anyone purposly. I look at the people involved, and the first thought that comes to me is what it ends up being. I hate that about me. For instance, a guy drove by me and when I looked up I said to myself out of no where, out loud, wow..that guy doesn't have long to live. My freind asked me why I would say that about a person I barely knew. I. Don't. Know. He was dead w in the month. The pastor at my church said its a gift, I have tried to ignore it and belittle it most of my life. Now I just go with it. I have never been wrong, but thats not to say that feeling in my gut is an every day or every case happening. Call bull, I can't change it.

And was your opinion kidnapped or parental involvement?

 

[cj1132]

On one of the cases on WS, someone said "you own your words." IIRC, they were talking from a legal standpoint. I take it on a personal basis and that's the way I post. I "own my words."

 

[SmoothOperator]

Beautifully written, tlcox.. So perfectly pointing out your personal reasons for some of your opinions or views.. I mean that is what makes each and every one of opinions and views so very unique and different because they are formed by our own personal experiences.. We each are looking at each case, each detail of each case through varying degrees of different glasses.. Some peoples similar in some ways, and in other areas or details may be quite different.. All because we do take our own personal experiences into account in every detail.. It is what changes the glass with which we see each detail of a case..

Your post was beautifully eloquent.. sprinkled perfectly with examples of your own personal experiences with which determine the glass with which you look through..

I loved it and it could not fit more perfectly for this thread.. I appreciate it as well because while I do tend to view things similarly it seems you do.. However yours has such grace and class where my emotions tend to get the best of me as is obvious from posts.. And.. Well..it all comes spilling out into my posts.. I admire your ability to explain your view/opinions so beautifully and to the point .. As anyone who is familiar with my posts knows I cannot seem to ever sum it up.. Lol.. Pretty obvious, huh?? ..lol

Just wanted to say beautiful post, tlcox!!:heart:

 

[tlcya]

Thanks SmoothOperator, I am one of the members who always makes sure to read your posts, even the windier ones. I have often thought "now there's a gal I would probably be friends with in RL." You seem to feel similarly to me on some of the cases we have followed in common. I think, or maybe overthink before I post, trying so hard to express exactly what I mean. I sometimes envy your ability to let it all just pour out without all that self editting that I engage in most times. I tend to think your posts are more pure - more in the moment.

Anyway, I appreciated your post for its raw emotionality in trying to explain your thoughts and feelings and how you came to have them.

Two very different approaches to the same thought and here we meet right in the middle, the proverbial sweet spot.

 

[SondraK]

Thanks SmoothOperator, I am one of the members who always makes sure to read your posts, even the windier ones. I have often thought "now there's a gal I would probably be friends with in RL." You seem to feel similarly to me on some of the cases we have followed in common. I think, or maybe overthink before I post, trying so hard to express exactly what I mean. I sometimes envy your ability to let it all just pour out without all that self editting that I engage in most times. I tend to think your posts are more pure - more in the moment.

Anyway, I appreciated your post for its raw emotionality in trying to explain your thoughts and feelings and how you came to have them.

Two very different approaches to the same thought and here we meet right in the middle, the proverbial sweet spot.

Somehow you always manage to say what I would say if I had the gift with words that you have. I admire you so much.

 

[marge_rita]

My issues regarding the intruder story given by the parents:

1. No signs of (genuine) forced entry.
2. This was the father's first night away from the home.
3. Intruder turns all the lights in the house on.
4. Family had a dog...heard no barking.
5. Next door neighbor had a dog which was outside at the time. She heard no barking.
6. 3 cell phones taken, according to the family, to keep them from calling 911. Really? This intruder didn't seem concerned about turning all the lights on while invading the home, but suddenly he cares about the police coming AFTER he's gone?

Just doesn't add up, IMO. Sorry, it just doesn't. Now, maybe we aren't being given the whole story, that's a definite possibility. But if this IS the full story the parents are telling, then yeah...I have some real troubles swallowing it.

bbm


imo

 

[marge_rita]

.. Alright there, marge I obviously cannot argue with the looooooooong comment!!..lol.. Many times I put my apologies in for my severe flaw of being waaaay tooooo looooong winded.. Sometimes I figure oh, what the he!!, why even bother it'll only make it even looooooonger!! Besides most know when they come to one of my posts it's an, "oh, Lordy here she goes again!".. And then they either scroll on past to the next post.. or.. They take a few extra moments to see if I've got anything relevant to say or not..lol.. Sometimes I do, sometimes it seems as tho I don't.. Ya just never know..lol :crazy:

Hey sweetie. :seeya:
You know I had to tease you. You're post are well thought out and well written. I enjoy reading them so don't cha go cuttin them short for me.

Seriously keep writing. You never know when you may post something that helps us with theories or may even help LE. ( I have a feeling they're reading here.)

 

[MissJames]

I am so glad your son is ok, Miss James*
I want to thank you and say that your having decided to share such an extremely personal experience with us is truly what I personally believe to be one of God's little everyday miracles, MOO.. But your choosing to share this with us In being openly honest about how our minds work when in alarming, adrenaline rushing experiences.. ESPECIALLY AND IMO MOST IMPORTANTLY WHEN THOSE EXPERIENCES ARE INVOLVING OUR PRECIOUS CHILDREN.. our minds literally kick into overdrive and in a way IMO portions of the brain literally are switched into auto-pilot mode.. IMO a necessary requirement for us to be able to somewhat "calmly" do what are the necessary sequence of events that follow.. If not for our brains switching that portion of the brain into auto-pilot mode we would experience system OVERLOAD and very likely do one of two things freeze, paralyzed within ourselves with the overload that's occurring within us.. Or .. Literally be a bumbling, stumbling mess and therefor act as an actual hindrance in completing those necessary sequence of steps in order to help/aid our child in their desperate time of need..again jmo..*

But another one of God's miracles is the intricate and unique way in which our mind, body , and soul work.. And in those intricate workings of the mind it's as if it knows when somethings occurred that would cause the "system overload".. Therefor as soon as the brain knows this is what is occurring it systematically switches that gear of our mind into the "auto-pilot" mode, thus allowing us to NOT basically freak out by paralyzing us, or the bumbling/stumbling hindrance that we could become working as an actual hindrance against what is in our Childs best interest at this crucial, often life threatening time thats taking place..*

Your description IMO described this process to a tee and could not have been a better example of exactly how intricate and detailed God created our minds to work amd to protect, and to allow us to be a help rather than a hindrance to our child in a dire situation.. Thank you so much for choosing to share this with us..

The only thing I would add is this.. In now seeing that natural process at work and how your left in the aftermath, even when things have become stable, you know your child is safe and no longer in danger.. That upon reflecting on all that occurred you see just how fuzzy or even having zero memory of certain events that occurred during that time(as you shared about your husband having put his ear to your sons chest and checking for*Breathing, tho u know full well you were right there when it occurred you have no visual memory of it whatsoever).. This IMO is all part of the brain that's switched into auto-pilot so as to not overload, and allow you to function like you needed to.. But as a safety mechanism of sorts it leaves the brain not clear, or with no memory of certain details that occurred during the traumatic event.. So, to take it a step further..
A) imagine if there were no "end" to the traumatic events.. There was no time for the brain to relax, revert back to normal and able to then reflect ALL OF THAT OCCURRING AFTER YOU FIND THAT CHILD IS OUT OF DANGER AND IS SAFE.. what if that were not the case as here with Lisa?? There is no end to the traumatic event of realizing she has been taken.. There is no down time for the brain to recoup when the child is no longer in danger..*
And then I ask that you add..
B) on top off all of this you add excessive stress from being isolated for many hours alone, away from any support system whatsoever and only surrounded by LE officers who now are clearly and repetitively stating that you are the one who harmed your child.. The child that your brain is still in overload unable to comprehend and not knowing what is being done to your baby, by whom, or if she is even alive?? All the while hours upon hours upon hours of being told over and over you murdered her!! We know you murdered her!! Mom, admit to us, LE that you murdered your child!! We already know it, save your family any more pain and confess to what we already know.. That you the child's mother murdered her and hid/disposed of her body!!

The only other component that I will mention in closing this post is on top of all of these unimaginable traumas IMO.. You factor in that there is the ENTIRE WORLD WATCHING AND KNOWING YOUR EVERY MOVE, CRITIQUING EVERY MOVE YOU'VE EVER MADE IN YOUR LIFE.. WITH A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF THOSE WATCHING NOT ONLY OPENLY ANS HARSHLY CRITICIZING YOUR EVERY MOVE(past, present, and future).. BUT OPENLY SAYING YOU MURDERED YOUR CHILD!! YOU BABY KILLER!! AND THEY CANNOT WAIT TO SEE YOU ARRESTED AND THROWN IN PRISON WITH THE KEY THROWN AWAY FOREVER!!

On top of the extremely honest example MissJames has chosen to share with us, of how many of our brains work in a time of trauma involving what is most precious to a mom, her baby, her child.. If you take a minute and truly think about this perfect example, this perfect representation of how many of our minds react and work in our most stressful and traumatics times with our children's lives hanging in the balance.. *And you think about and add to that the 10+ hours isolated, zero support, still with no resolution to your Childs well being your greatest fears now your reality and for hour upon hour be told your child is dead and you are the person who killed your child!! 10+ hrs.. And THE ENTIRE WORLD NOW WATCHING EVERY SINGLE STEP, EYE MOVEMENT, Literally counting the number of tears that actually stream down each of your checks..LITERALLY!!! And many out there watching and waiting at every head nod, body language and did you have enough actual tears stream down your face in public(not crying or sobbing.. That is NOT GOOD ENOUGH for some of the public watching you..) YOU MUST BE PRODUCING ACTUAL SALINE FILLED WATER TO SPILL OUT FROM YOUR EYELIDS AND ENOUGH THAT IT VISIBLY STREAMS DOWN YOUR FACE!! .. if it doesn't meet that criteria then it is not counted as a tear and damn it!! You better believe that will be used against you!!.. And this is the God's honest truth sadly!!

That is what you are faced with!!! That is what you're up against!! That is how cruelly you will be judged by a decent percentage of ppl in this world!(and God help those ppl should they ever find themselves in similar shoes).. You've got an uphill battle and that's putting it as mildly as possible.. You are enemy #1 and are being told you murdered your child!! The child that is the only thing you give a damn about finding but with what has been created of these missing children's cases it is now circus like!! Your child being found is the least of anyone's concern it certainly seems.. Your flaws and your not showing enough emotion, not showing the correct emotion, or you didn't say your Childs name that specific magical number that is required of you!! Damn you for that, mom.. Truth is damn the mom for EVERYTHING!! because no matter what a mom does it's not to "someone's" likings, "someone's"standards, or "someone's" opinions.. And sadly to many that's what matters and that's what their focus is..

Imagine all of this on one human beings shoulders, and just imagine for one brief second that the mom is not the monster some attempt to paint her to be, and that she is actually 100% innocent, just like Polly Klaas's mother who was one bedroom(w/only a bathroom that separated)over from Pollys room where That monster came thru a window and left thru a window taking 12 yr old Polly out that same window with him.. And then raped and killed her, then being left out in the elements for weeks..Or innocent like Riley Fox's dad who was asleep as his daughter, 3yr old Riley slept on the loveseat next to her older brother who was asleep on the couch, when a man entered thru an UNLOCKED BACK DOOR OF THE HOME, grabbed a sleeping Riley who was next to her older, sleeping brother, left out that same back door with Riley and raped and killed her, then left out in the elements for weeks.. *Both of these monsters proven per DNA to be the killers, not the innocent, devastated parents..

It's a tragedy of an entirely different magnitude when these innocent parents are judged, crucified, chewed up and spit out and fed to the wolves.. When all they're guilty of is living their day to day lives in this imperfect world, just as you and I all do.. Not a one of us perfect, not a one us would stand up to the outrageous and unattainable "standards" some choose to judge these poor parents with..

ETA: just wanted to say thank you again to MissJames for choosing to share her open and honest account of a personal, and indeed stressful event that was shared with your husband and son..(((((HUGS))))) and again I am so happy that he is A-ok now..

****** disclaimer***** PLEASE READ*****disclaimer******
in no way am I attempting to portray this post as MissJames opinion or views.. I used her post with her personal experience as an example to "jump off of" and from there explain my own personal opinions and views.. They are MOO!! MOO!!

I agree with you,completely. The brain protects us from too much shock,IMO.
I've also had the other scenario that never ends,losing my 15 yr old son to suicide.I've mentioned before that the shock of your child dying becomes physical and uncontrollable. Imagine if the brain didn't protect you !

We had the questions from insensitive people about depression(none),seeing signs (just a couple of hours before he asked his dad to get fireworks for that night and his glasses fixed),was he abused (we got him at 2 days old) ,was he mad at us (no,it was about his first girlfriend).
There is a stigma with suicide .It's called "complicated grief". I'm determined to change that .
A very close friend lost her father a few days before my son died almost 7 years ago . This summer was the first time she told me he actually committed suicide ,not a heart attack.
So I relate to these parents on many levels,but I'm still on the fence. If they are innocent then they are suffering and I don't want to add to that.
JMO

 

[Peazzzer]

Sorry wg! I didn't mean to stop conv. and I suck at writing. The 1st thought that came to me was mother is responsible. Ok, I don't know what happened, the how of it. Then, I was left w the question, her father too, but which father? I don't even know what that means. The mother is responsible and the father, which one? This wasn't coming about because of the media, it just came to me while I listened to the mom crying words. If I was going to analyze anything I have read or seen on the news, which I don't make a point to do, watch the news I mean, it would be different. I have given this instance before, I was in San Fran w a good freind and she kept nagging me to go in the bay on a boat, on and on. Out of no where I looked at her and said no way, Laci Peterson and her baby are in there! Sorry, saw the post above and wanted to answer that. Me, not a psychic, not a head shrinker, just have always had what i have called deja vu.

 

[MissJames]

My issues regarding the intruder story given by the parents:

1. No signs of (genuine) forced entry.
2. This was the father's first night away from the home.
3. Intruder turns all the lights in the house on.
4. Family had a dog...heard no barking.
5. Next door neighbor had a dog which was outside at the time. She heard no barking.
6. 3 cell phones taken, according to the family, to keep them from calling 911. Really? This intruder didn't seem concerned about turning all the lights on while invading the home, but suddenly he cares about the police coming AFTER he's gone?

Just doesn't add up, IMO. Sorry, it just doesn't. Now, maybe we aren't being given the whole story, that's a definite possibility. But if this IS the full story the parents are telling, then yeah...I have some real troubles swallowing it.

I hate it when you get all logical on us. :maddening:
You cannot be a juror on this case :denied: This time you're just a :websleuther: Not that there's anything wrong with that :crazy:

:seeya:

 

[MissJames]

Sorry wg! I didn't mean to stop conv. and I suck at writing. The 1st thought that came to me was mother is responsible. Ok, I don't know what happened, the how of it. Then, I was left w the question, her father too, but which father? I don't even know what that means. The mother is responsible and the father, which one? This wasn't coming about because of the media, it just came to me while I listened to the mom crying words. If I was going to analyze anything I have read or seen on the news, which I don't make a point to do, watch the news I mean, it would be different. I have given this instance before, I was in San Fran w a good freind and she kept nagging me to go in the bay on a boat, on and on. Out of no where I looked at her and said no way, Laci Peterson and her baby are in there! Sorry, saw the post above and wanted to answer that. Me, not a psychic, not a head shrinker, just have always had what i have called deja vu.

We should take this to another thread because I want to explore this more .
You just set off a whole new theory ,IMO.At least,new to me.

 

[LaLaw2000]

My issues regarding the intruder story given by the parents:

1. No signs of (genuine) forced entry.
2. This was the father's first night away from the home.
3. Intruder turns all the lights in the house on.
4. Family had a dog...heard no barking.
5. Next door neighbor had a dog which was outside at the time. She heard no barking.
6. 3 cell phones taken, according to the family, to keep them from calling 911. Really? This intruder didn't seem concerned about turning all the lights on while invading the home, but suddenly he cares about the police coming AFTER he's gone?

Just doesn't add up, IMO. Sorry, it just doesn't. Now, maybe we aren't being given the whole story, that's a definite possibility. But if this IS the full story the parents are telling, then yeah...I have some real troubles swallowing it.

:seeya:............hello, Mountain_Kat!

Your post just about outlines my thoughts also.

I just cannot accept the parents story as has been put forth. I really hope there is more we have not heard that will point toward their innocence. Barring that......................well HINK in capitol letters for just the reasons you posted!

*
P.S. I do not have tunnel vision, and I do not think LE or the FBI does either! This statement not directed at you or your post, Mountain_Kat!

MOO

 

[ketel0ne]

:seeya:............hello, Mountain_Kat!

Your post just about outlines my thoughts also.

I just cannot accept the parents story as has been put forth. I really hope there is more we have not heard that will point toward their innocence. Barring that......................well HINK in capitol letters for just the reasons you posted!

*
P.S. I do not have tunnel vision, and I do not think LE or the FBI does either! This statement not directed at you or your post, Mountain_Kat!

MOO

Why call 911 at 4am. A 10 month old is not expected at school, why not wait til the next day or even until they are expected to be somewhere with the baby? Why report your child missing in real time if you are involved? Heck, maybe they could have waited 31 days.

 

[LaLaw2000]

Why call 911 at 4am. A 10 month old is not expected at school, why not wait til the next day or even until they are expected to be somewhere with the baby? Why report your child missing in real time if you are involved? Heck, maybe they could have waited 31 days.

Sorry, ketelOne, but I posted MOO and really do feel what I posted. I do not have the answers as to what happened to Baby Lisa; heck, none of us do! I just know what I think from what I have seen and heard the parents speak of in vids. I stated my opinion and it is what it is.


MOO

 

[Donjeta]

Well, supposing only one parent is involved, wouldn't the other one want to call 911 as soon as soon as s/he noticed and the other one would have to go along with it or appear hinky?

Everyone with any common sense would know that the longer after the last reliable sighting of your baby you wait before reporting the child missing the hinkier you look.

 

[ThoughtFox]

Mods merge this if you see somewhere it fits better.

This is just an opinion but maybe websleuths, the media, and now by extension Lisa's parents are reacting to this case all in unexpected ways post the Casey Anthony verdict. It does feel as if more of our innocence, and part of our moral compass were eroded by that verdict. Now if the case goes national and their isn't a circus and the parents don't feel trapped it won't "fit". I really fear this may be the new normal is missing child cases that last more than a week and go national. The expected norms, and behaviors may have gone out the window. While each of us individually is pretty levelheaded for the most part the group think and the court of public opinion has definitively been affected. How difficult would it be to hang fliers and organize searches for the family, we have no idea. How does what the media now expects affect the ability to "act" like the public thinks you should act. Is the national media and reality types quicker to jump on the bandwagon more now than 3 years ago, it would seem so at least in this case.

I honestly don't think people are jumping on the bandwagon too quickly in this case. I don't have an opinion one way or another about the Irwins.

I've been here since back in the Elizabeth Smart days, and the theories on that case were just as speculative, and people were just as torn about the parents and the way they behaved. I learned my lesson then about jumping to conclusions - the parents had nothing to do with it, and at one point I truly thought they did. But I don't regret my opinion at the time, because truth was much stranger than fiction, and Occam's Razor didn't apply (the simplest explanation did not explain an abduction by weirdo freaks from the desert).

Yes, it's hard to forget the Anthony case, but it's just as hard for some of us to forget Danielle Van Damm and Madeleine McCann. In those cases, the parents may not have been guilty (I'm still not sure in the McCann case), but the parents had to be investigated because their stories were odd and outside the norm, and the children disappeared from inside their own house.

I feel the same way about Hailey Dunn. If parents say they always know where their children are . . . but then they don't check on them for two days - you have to question what is going on. If parents change their story from day to day, you have to question that as well. And Hailey was no baby, but child who apparently walked away on her own. So if we wonder about her, then surely we have to question how two parents can misplace a small baby.

Also Kyron Horman is too fresh in my mind as well. He disappeared from school during a science fair and the last one to see him was his stepmother. People wanted desperately to believe she was above reproach - but everything we found out was too extreme to just ignore. I don't see that as jumping to conclusions, although I realize some people still believe she is innocent, or at least "not guilty." But I can honestly say that the Anthony case had nothing to do with my opinion of the Horman case, except that in both the mother-figures drew unwanted attention to themselves through their own weird behavior.

And it's just dang hard to forget facts once you read them.

So many of these cases have bizarre circumstances, and many of them have no resolution in sight and that will often make people feel jaded or cynical. The more I read about human nature, but more I think you have to hope for the best but also expect the worst. That is not being negative, in my opinion, nor is it tunnel vision. You live, you learn. A skeptical eye is a survival mechanism.

 

[~n/t~]

What makes me sway one way or other in a case is when those closest to an investigation begin to change their stories.

In this case, I haven't seen that happen yet and perhaps it's a good thing but then again we don't know what was told to LE in the initial reports and during questioning.

LE is smart not to name anyone as suspects in this case until they have all their ducks in a row. They can eliminate the rush to judgement theory as a defense if this case ever goes to trial. The parents may feel that's what is going on but so far, they haven't said mom or dad or both are persons of interest.

I personally don't see the PI doing much of anything except trying to defend the parents. Maybe he's doing things behind the scenes, IDK but considering he doesn't have a license for the State of Missouri, I'm not sure what he's able to do or not do. Asking the parents questions? Why do they need a PI to do that? Why don't the parents answer questions asked by LE? If they're truly innocent there is nothing to hide, right?

Same goes with the threat assessment/psychologist lady (sorry can't remember her name...that's how renowned she is lol). FBI have their own profilers. Why not work with them? Why all this behind the scenes stuff? How is that going to help find Lisa?

In the meantime, a 10 month old baby girl is still missing. Besides the local searches being done by LE (seems they're still focused around the house and area) who else is looking for Lisa? Are flyers still being put up? Is the PI following up on leads? Do they have any leads?

Every morning I keep hoping for some good news but everyday that goes by, a bit of hope is gone.

Praying today is the day they find baby Lisa safe. :sigh: