UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[Obergine]

I was one told by a Afro Caribbean friend that black babies are often very pale looking when born then go darker. I would imagine a mixed race child would be even more so..

Tis true. There was a lot of gossip about my boys when they were born... but a touch of sunshine

 

[Alyce]

Old Bailey closed for rest of day​

The Old Bailey has now been closed and will reopen for business tomorrow "pending a safety inspection".

In a video posted on social media, James Rossiter, director of communications for the Criminal Bar Association of England and Wales, said that all 17 courtrooms had concluded business for the day.

He said: "Justice is delayed, but it won't be denied."

Barristers have returned home or are waiting to be escorted back into the building to retrieve their belongings.

Constance Marten trial paused as Old Bailey closes for day after fire

We are bringing you live updates after reports of 'explosions' near the Old Bailey

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[Earthwindfire]

Tis true. There was a lot of gossip about my boys when they were born... but a touch of sunshine

I realise it probably sounds a bit stupid I need to be told that. My skin couldn't get much paler if I tried! I got every ounce of the Celtic genes in me!

 

[GreekGal]

The heckling says it all though.. you can hear quite clearly what the blokes shouting out..

I just relistened to it with my headphones on. Did someone in the van shout, "you *advertiser censored***ng child killer"?

 

[Amandacb27]

Who is Lisa Moffatt who asks CM questions, by implication (Argus) in the back of a police car in what was recorded as an emergency interview? Police officers are being identified using name and rank, so she probably wasn't police.

Jury to be shown bodycam footage of Marten and Gordon arrest - live updates

Live updates from the Old Bailey as the prosecution continues its case against Constance Marten and Mark Gordon

www.theargus.co.uk

Police Community Support Officer in that area. I looked this up having wondered her role too.

 

[Alyce]

 

[EricAcaciaAvenue]

While there is a break from the trial, those interested in the background might like to take a look at the BBC documentary on the TB Joshua church/cult, which I was watching last night. It is called "Disciples" - seemingly is on YouTube as well as IPlayer. Some quite eye-opening accounts from some young British women who went out there and were essentially brainwashed for years - naked dormitories, required to ask permission to sleep or go to the toilet, cut off from all contact with the outside world, etc.

Not saying this explains all (or necessarily any) of Constance Marten's alleged behaviour but it is an insight into the type of experience she may have had.

I did also note that apparently they called TB Joshua "Daddy". But not, I think, "Daddy Bear".

 

[Parker Knoll]

I just relistened to it with my headphones on. Did someone in the van shout, "you *advertiser censored***ng child killer"?

It does sound like that to me.

 

[Pidgy]

Drama at the Bailey. Let's hope no-one was injured in today's fire.

Meanwhile. this from the Argus: "Mark Gordon returned to prison as trial paused".
Did CM get bail?

Recap: Constance Marten trial paused as Old Bailey closes for day after fire

We are bringing you live updates after reports of 'explosions' near the Old Bailey

www.theargus.co.uk

ETA: "In a video posted on social media, James Rossiter, director of communications for the Criminal Bar Association of England and Wales, said that all 17 courtrooms had concluded business for the day. He said: 'Justice is delayed, but it won't be denied.' "

^ That's hilarious! Clearly a public relations genius. A master of alliteration. I wonder how much he gets paid for directing communications for the criminal bar. Google or Pepsi have probably snapped him up by now.

 

[CaptainNancy]

Drama at the Bailey. Let's hope no-one was injured in today's fire.

Meanwhile. this from the Argus: "Mark Gordon returned to prison as trial paused".
Did CM get bail?

No, but she wasn’t photographed being put in a van.

 

[Telltale]

I wondered if there had been more cult stuff too, but they seem too (co)independent for it. at least at this point.

Mainly I was wondering because seriously where did all Martens money go?

She got 20k in less than 2 months. So for the sake of argument say she gets a payout somewhere between 20-100k a year. May be way off but there is something.

I've not seen any evidence it was funding their life before the Plan Baby. They've lived like they were flat broke. Not slumming it poor, poverty poor. They were evicted from the flats in bad neighborhoods where Gordon looks for handyman work every day. By the time they had their (previous) newborn they were living in a cheap tent surrounded by pee bottles. They tried again in an condemned caravan.

It's a classic spiral into homelessness. Was Marten just ignoring the tens of thousands dropping into her bank account every quarter or whatever?

There are the obvious answers, addiction, cult, church (predatory one) alcoholism, gambling, debts etc but there's been no evidence for them so far. There's the boring answers, the deposit was annual, they had a bunch of kids, there was some discussion by the executor.

It's not even important, I'm just nosey.

 

[Pidgy]

I wondered if there had been more cult stuff too, but they seem too (co)independent for it. at least at this point.

Mainly I was wondering because seriously where did all Martens money go?

She got 20k in less than 2 months. So for the sake of argument say she gets a payout somewhere between 20-100k a year. May be way off but there is something.

I've not seen any evidence it was funding their life before the Plan Baby. They've lived like they were flat broke. Not slumming it poor, poverty poor. They were evicted from the flats in bad neighborhoods where Gordon looks for handyman work every day. By the time they had their (previous) newborn they were living in a cheap tent surrounded by pee bottles. They tried again in an condemned caravan.

It's a classic spiral into homelessness. Was Marten just ignoring the tens of thousands dropping into her bank account every quarter or whatever?

There are the obvious answers, addiction, cult, church (predatory one) alcoholism, gambling, debts etc but there's been no evidence for them so far. There's the boring answers, the deposit was annual, they had a bunch of kids, there was some discussion by the executor.

It's not even important, I'm just nosey.

IF she has been receiving say £40K+ pa of trust fund money over the past few years, which is a huge "if", then given her lifestyle I'd say handing a big proportion over to a cult or semi-cult would be a strong possibility. She may even have got herself into a position where all it took was one signature. Living inexpensively because she knew the trust money was going to stop and she wanted to save some up without having to take a job would have been thoroughly rational but doesn't seem likely. She can't have had access to much disposable income, otherwise after so much unpleasantness with the social services they would have done something like renting a house on a big plot in the west of Ireland for a year or two from when she was 2-3 months pregnant, even slapping a year's rent on the table if a landlord required it, as the price of relative security and stability pro tem. He could have been off the radar altogether, while she could have maybe opened a bank account in a realish name and attended pre-natal checkups under a false one. It would have been difficult for him to return to Great Britain, or for her to come back with the baby, but that would have been part of the price. Instead we get this enormous drama with the car going up in flames after the baby was born, followed by mugshots in the national media. Sensibly spent money could have minimised the possibility of such mega-stress. Debt's an interesting thought.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Well he doesn't look starving and unhealthy now!

The change in his appearance and the speculations of the sugary snacks, bad foot, and CM's concern about him eating when they got arrested have made me think that maybe he does have diabetes or something similar.
One of my teenage boyfriend's father had type II and lost his toe and had hypos when going through stressful times; his wife would rush around to get something sugary like a fizzy drink/pop/soda, or candy/sweets. During these times, he looked sick. He was tired and slept more. When he wasn't stressed, he would put on weight, not have hypos, and was more energetic.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

I realise it probably sounds a bit stupid I need to be told that. My skin couldn't get much paler if I tried! I got every ounce of the Celtic genes in me!

Same. Dark hair, blue eyes, pale skin, freckles and rosy cheeks. I hiss like a vampire when the sun touches me.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

RSMB
Bolded for ease

I wondered if there had been more cult stuff too, but they seem too (co)independent for it. at least at this point.

This.
They are co-dependant. I think the only thing the cult has to do with their relationship is that it snapped CM. PTSD is likely, and in the circles, she ran in and her aristocratic background, she was most likely advised to keep a 'stiff upper lip.'
MG likely has PTSD also from being in jail since he was 14 years old.
They met each other and likely trauma-bonded, leading to only trusting each other, unconsciously feeding each others anxiety and paranoia.

where did all Martens money go?

I do not think it went anywhere. She was using it until they knew they were hot gossip, and then they only used cash, and when that ran out, they started dumpster diving and attempting to shoplift. Why? Because they did not want to be traced.
I wouldn't be surprised if she still had a good chunk of money when they got arrested, and I will go further to say that is what she used to fund legal services until it ran out and the family refused to help.
ETA:
JMO, of course

 

[Kye Zeeb]

It looks like the Old Bailey will remain closed today (Thursday).
(Edited to add day)

Old Bailey remains closed for emergency repairs after 'explosions'

The courthouse was evacuated on Wednesday after an electrical fault at a substation nearby

www.standard.co.uk

 

[EricAcaciaAvenue]

Yes, as far as I can recall there is no evidence from any of the (multiple) people who've given snippets about their lives in England, that they were part of a cult or anything similar here.

More likely that (a) joining in the first place was a symptom of CM being a somewhat footloose and possibly anti-establishment person, and (b) that her experiences may be a partial explanation for some of her seemingly irrational behaviour in this case.

 

[Twittens]

Yes, as far as I can recall there is no evidence from any of the (multiple) people who've given snippets about their lives in England, that they were part of a cult or anything similar here.

More likely that (a) joining in the first place was a symptom of CM being a somewhat footloose and possibly anti-establishment person, and (b) that her experiences may be a partial explanation for some of her seemingly irrational behaviour in this case.

(bold for focus)

I don't think this is why people join cults. More, it's that they're looking for a sense of interpersonal connection that their life lacks, that they want to address a sense of personal inadequacy, and that they are already vulnerable because of prior events.

There's lots of scholarly literature on the topic if you care to google but this isn't a bad lay article:
3 reasons why people join cults, according to a cult-recovery therapist

 

[Alyce]

February 08, 2024 at 2:43PM

The Old Bailey will remain closed for emergency works for the rest of the week.

On Thursday afternoon, the Recorder of London, Judge Mark Lucraft KC, said there was still no power in the building due to the fire in an electricity substation.

UK Power Networks was working on the substation and new kit needed to be installed, he said.

It would not be in place in time for a “safe operation” on Friday and it was hoped the Old Bailey would reopen on Monday,

‘Accidental’ fire shuts high-security Old Bailey for the week

The Old Bailey is the world’s most famous criminal court and has high levels of security as it hears major criminal cases.

www.irishnews.com

 

[Nikynoo]

I wondered if there had been more cult stuff too, but they seem too (co)independent for it. at least at this point.

Mainly I was wondering because seriously where did all Martens money go?

She got 20k in less than 2 months. So for the sake of argument say she gets a payout somewhere between 20-100k a year. May be way off but there is something.

I've not seen any evidence it was funding their life before the Plan Baby. They've lived like they were flat broke. Not slumming it poor, poverty poor. They were evicted from the flats in bad neighborhoods where Gordon looks for handyman work every day. By the time they had their (previous) newborn they were living in a cheap tent surrounded by pee bottles. They tried again in an condemned caravan.

It's a classic spiral into homelessness. Was Marten just ignoring the tens of thousands dropping into her bank account every quarter or whatever?

There are the obvious answers, addiction, cult, church (predatory one) alcoholism, gambling, debts etc but there's been no evidence for them so far. There's the boring answers, the deposit was annual, they had a bunch of kids, there was some discussion by the executor.

It's not even important, I'm just nosey.

I’m wondering where the 25k debt is from.