UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

[ShadowPuppet]

I
I haven't been following the trial closely, but my understanding is she had previously cared for children who all survived.

IMO, there's nothing very complicated or theoretical for a mother in looking after her 2-week old baby. Women living in indigenous tribes do it without any fancy gear or knowledge.

She needed to breastfeed every couple of hours, change her diapers, small stuff. The baby should have slept on her back, but it seems CM, while warned, didn't believe that was really necessary, and I don't think she's the only one.

I think it's a legal conundrum - if CM had stayed in a bedroom somewhere, with a drawer for the baby to sleep in, but had fallen asleep cradling the baby and woken up to her having died, would she still be criminally responsible?

If it was a different woman, without a trust fund and disputes with her relatives and SS, who had fallen asleep cradling her baby after her electricity had been cut off because hubby didn't pay the bill, and the baby had died, would that woman be criminally responsible for causing the baby's death, and gross negligent manslaughter?

I really can't say either way.

ETA: a news report about the number of co-sleeping deaths of babies in Scotland last year: 74.

Safety plea over co-sleeping baby deaths figures

A quarter of infant deaths in Scotland last year involved parents bedsharing with babies, the BBC learns.

www.bbc.com

JMO

I think it’s more complicated. Plenty of parents ‘successfully care for’ a baby prior to a baby dying if staying alive is the success factor. Baby P’s mother had previous children who survived. Obviously, there were different issues and red flags for that specific child, but usually there’s also an escalation of existing problems. We have clear video evidence that there were unusual factors in how Victoria was handled, how she was dressed comparatively to the temperature and how the items owned for her were inappropriate. It’s obviously more complex that the cause of death can’t be established and accidental suffocation is suggested, but it’s not co-sleeping to fall asleep sitting up. JMOO, but if she’d been a mother in a house without heating due to poverty, it would still be about the other factors - was it avoidable with simple means, were there other concerns including domestic violence, had agencies tried to help, did she realise the risks, did she feel she had other options, had she dressed the baby warmly to make up for the lack of heat etc. I think CM is well-aware that much of her case is complex and has meaning for many because of the right to make our own choices (and the fact humans will always make some mistakes) as a person and a mother, from the falling asleep element to the environmental lifestyle choice element to the not seeking medical care and free birthing element to the social services and fleeing the country element. It’s a trial full of issues around the rights of women, but also - and this is where CM doesn’t seem to understand - around the rights of a baby to have a safe environment to be nurtured, grow and develop and, ultimately, live.

 

[OrangeCash]

I think it's a legal conundrum - if CM had stayed in a bedroom somewhere, with a drawer for the baby to sleep in, but had fallen asleep cradling the baby and woken up to her having died, would she still be criminally responsible?

If it was a different woman, without a trust fund and disputes with her relatives and SS, who had fallen asleep cradling her baby after her electricity had been cut off because hubby didn't pay the bill, and the baby had died, would that woman be criminally responsible for causing the baby's death, and gross negligent manslaughter?

I really can't say either way.

I don't find these scenarios comparable. CM chose to keep her baby out in the elements, not properly clothed and apparently dirty, for at least 16 days (according to CM) when she had money to afford a warm and clean place to stay, for food, for hygiene items, for baby things. She had options that would have allowed her to stay in hiding and she chose to reject the safe ones. She chose to put her baby at risk

MOO

 

[Telltale]

In courts i got the sense that if they could have stayed in a cottage or hotel or air b n b it wld have been preferable but they couldn’t get additional nights due to :needing ID to book w booking.com which she mentioned as using. She said she left her handbag in the car after the fire which had her wallet in and she also mentioned a fairly large quantity of money being in the car at the time of the fire and being left there. So she had no handbag, the baby items she had stockpiled now up in flames from the car fire .. nowwhere safe to go .. just given birth.. desperate to hold on to their baby … being the subject of a massive person hunt propelled into the public eye..can’t even imagine the mental toll this would take. Other observations from the gallery: nervous demeanour .. self conscious apologising a lot for being nervous and not remembering everything .. poised.. composed … far from arrogant I think she came across humble but clearly affected by her life experiences w her family and choices she felt she had no other choice to make .. her make up was natural - she looked pretty she has a very sort of natural beauty about her . She clutched a bunch of what looked like personal papers close to her which the judge asked her to
Put to the side . This included a note from MG he passed her before she started evidence. JMO and am not conding their action or what happened but she had an almost ethereal quality. She didn’t come across in court like an arrogant monster. Quite the opposite. Just my opinion.

Well at least she's getting some value for money out of that acting degree.

Ok that might be uncharitable, but it is my immediate first reaction. I think she has shown herself for being incredibly calculating from the moment they were caught. She's had a straight year to prepare and practice the best way to come across to a jury and certainly has the background to pull off a convincing performance.

 

[Nikynoo]

I thought there was a question about the cars where she indicated they had been through 14 cars and did she imply strange things had happened to all of them?! Not sure what the suggestion was here but the seed was planted that there were problems w all the cars.. anyone seen anymore it’ll that! Is nyine inferring something here ???

yes watching from the gallery court number 5.

It could be just lack of simple maintenance and nothing nefarious?

 

[iamshadow21]

Well at least she's getting some value for money out of that acting degree.

Ok that might be uncharitable, but it is my immediate first reaction. I think she has shown herself for being incredibly calculating from the moment they were caught. She's had a straight year to prepare and practice the best way to come across to a jury and certainly has the background to pull off a convincing performance.

I have to admit, I thought this, too. Not with implications of guilt or innocence, just that a stage is nothing new or frightening to her - it's an old familiar place. And every court is a stage, with the witness stand being the spotlight.

MOO

 

[Nikynoo]

Yes she said 15 cars not 14 - I apologise. And absolutely implied something sus about the cars all having the same problem.

No oil?

 

[rockthecasbah]

Interesting in the DM podcast she says "two sets of people in my family" hired investigators.

Also pretending to not know Liverpool is a port. Why did you go there if you didn't know that? She's lying about everything

 

[Nikynoo]

In courts i got the sense that if they could have stayed in a cottage or hotel or air b n b it wld have been preferable but they couldn’t get additional nights due to :needing ID to book w booking.com which she mentioned as using. She said she left her handbag in the car after the fire which had her wallet in and she also mentioned a fairly large quantity of money being in the car at the time of the fire and being left there. So she had no handbag, the baby items she had stockpiled now up in flames from the car fire .. nowwhere safe to go .. just given birth.. desperate to hold on to their baby … being the subject of a massive person hunt propelled into the public eye..can’t even imagine the mental toll this would take. Other observations from the gallery: nervous demeanour .. self conscious apologising a lot for being nervous and not remembering everything .. poised.. composed … far from arrogant I think she came across humble but clearly affected by her life experiences w her family and choices she felt she had no other choice to make .. her make up was natural - she looked pretty she has a very sort of natural beauty about her . She clutched a bunch of what looked like personal papers close to her which the judge asked her to
Put to the side . This included a note from MG he passed her before she started evidence. JMO and am not conding their action or what happened but she had an almost ethereal quality. She didn’t come across in court like an arrogant monster. Quite the opposite. Just my opinion.

Thank you for your posts. It’s good to have a perspective on the evidence given.

 

[Maltesepuppy]

It could be just lack of simple maintenance and nothing nefarious?

They probably thought cars should work with chanting and aromatherapy instead of petrol

 

[Sherlockhames]

They probably thought cars should work with chanting and aromatherapy instead of petrol

I wondered whether it might be that MG was doing at least some of the driving and might not have been completely au fait with driving a manual car?! Grinding through the gears (or not) etc could have damaged the gearbox/motor?

 

[Smccat]

No oil?

Either very bad driving technique or not checking oil and water on long journeys is my guess. They would have been buying old cars at the money levels mentioned.

 

[rockthecasbah]

Either very bad driving technique or not checking oil and water on long journeys is my guess. They would have been buying old cars at the money levels mentioned.

Probably both

 

[Alyce]

Yes she said 15 cars not 14 - I apologise. And absolutely implied something sus about the cars all having the same problem.

Ah sorry, I wasn't trying to correct you - I just meant that there was not much detail in the podcast -

I presume, if she / they were buying cheap cars, they were either all unreliable - or she/they were not doing any basic maintenance

this is the podcast quote .....

 

[Alyce]

Interesting in the DM podcast she says "two sets of people in my family" hired investigators.

Also pretending to not know Liverpool is a port. Why did you go there if you didn't know that? She's lying about everything

I am also struggling with that part.
But if, for some strange reason, neither of them had heard of Liverpool and had no idea it hosts a very large seaport - then why indeed did they go there ?

podcast quote with apologies for the spelling which I cant edit

 

[elliefant]

She wasn’t forced to live rough because she couldn’t make an untraceable accommodation booking. If she was forced to live rough it was because she had chosen not to work with Social Services and had decided to go on the run. Accommodation & bookings (lack of) are a consequence of her decision not the origin of her decision.

 

[Nikynoo]

A bit more detail in this article.https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/24170474.constance-marten-tells-old-bailey-trial-brighton-baby-death/
Victoria died whilst they were in Newhaven, and they regularly caught the bus to Brighton.

 

[Telltale]

I am also struggling with that part.
But if, for some strange reason, neither of them had heard of Liverpool and had no idea it hosts a very large seaport - then why indeed did they go there ?

podcast quote with apologies for the spelling which I cant edit

View attachment 488889

She's from the south.
Wouldn't exactly be a shock if her geographical knowhow didn't reach past the M25.

Harwich wasn't a bad shout to slip out the country tbh. It's smaller. Infrastructure is old. Boarder notifications would be managed by the local station which would be Clacton or Colchester, rather than a dedicated team. Pick the right time of day and book short notice. They might have managed to get through before the alert was attended to.

 

[Sherlockhames]

She's from the south.
Wouldn't exactly be a shock if her geographical knowhow didn't reach past the M25.

Harwich wasn't a bad shout to slip out the country tbh. It's smaller. Infrastructure is old. Boarder notifications would be managed by the local station which would be Clacton or Colchester, rather than a dedicated team. Pick the right time of day and book short notice. They might have managed to get through before the alert was attended to.

I don’t quite buy that she knew Harwich was a “sea-port” but that she didn’t know about Liverpool - the passenger/car ferry port for Ireland being one too.

 

[Alyce]

She's from the south.
Wouldn't exactly be a shock if her geographical knowhow didn't reach past the M25.

Harwich wasn't a bad shout to slip out the country tbh. It's smaller. Infrastructure is old. Boarder notifications would be managed by the local station which would be Clacton or Colchester, rather than a dedicated team. Pick the right time of day and book short notice. They might have managed to get through before the alert was attended to.

True

But she went to Leeds University -

I think there was a reason for going to Liverpool - and then they realised something about that plan wouldnt work, so headed south

 

[Nikynoo]

Todays Telegraph live link Constance Marten to be cross examined over baby death - live updates

They have not started yet.