UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #6

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Finished for the day


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:Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 10:08
Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 10:45 - 10:14
Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 10:48
Trial (Part Heard) - Defence CONSTANCE MARTEN Case Opened - 10:56
Trial (Part Heard) - Defendant Sworn - 11:04
Trial (Part Heard) - Witness Number 30 Continues - 11:39
Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 12:05 - 11:49
Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 12:11
Trial (Part Heard) - Witness Number 30 Continues - 12:15
Trial (Part Heard) - Witness Number 30 Continues - 12:33
Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 14:05 - 13:01
Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 14:08
Trial (Part Heard) - Witness Number 30 Continues - 14:14
Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 15:25 - 15:07
Trial (Part Heard) - Witness Number 30 Continues - 15:29
Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 10:00 - 16:13
 
Yes, not sure why they didn't try to go to NI once they reached Liverpool, instead of doing a very quick about turn down to Harwich, seems odd.

I think they possibly didn't realise they'd lost CM's passport in the car fire until they got to Liverpool, and then had an "oh *advertiser censored*" moment.

Though I don't know why they'd think leaving the country via Harwich to mainland Europe was going to be any easier than going to NI, which is at least in the UK.

Explaining why the couple had chosen that area, she said: “We wanted to be near a port so we had two plans in our mind. The first was to get a cottage that we could pay for with cash with no electrical tracing and also to be near a port so that someone could smuggle us abroad. Our plan was only to be in the tent for a day or two maximum.”

Okay - so complete fantasist thinking! Who would smuggle two people and a new born baby who are wanted by Police and SS!

There are some anti SS nutters out there. Ian Josephs is one of the more prominent ones, known for giving fare money to any woman looking to evade SS, without even looking at the reasons for SS having concerns.

Maybe they thought the Channel small boats people smugglers would have some spare seats on the return journey.

MOO.
 
I think they possibly didn't realise they'd lost CM's passport in the car fire until they got to Liverpool, and then had an "oh *advertiser censored*" moment.

Though I don't know why they'd think leaving the country via Harwich to mainland Europe was going to be any easier than going to NI, which is at least in the UK.



There are some anti SS nutters out there. Ian Josephs is one of the more prominent ones, known for giving fare money to any woman looking to evade SS, without even looking at the reasons for SS having concerns.

Maybe they thought the Channel small boats people smugglers would have some spare seats on the return journey.

MOO.

Yes possibly, but passport not required for NI - could have used her DL. But probably not thinking straight.

I love that thought - find an empty leg crossing with the boats :D
 
I think they possibly didn't realise they'd lost CM's passport in the car fire until they got to Liverpool, and then had an "oh *advertiser censored*" moment.

Though I don't know why they'd think leaving the country via Harwich to mainland Europe was going to be any easier than going to NI, which is at least in the UK.



There are some anti SS nutters out there. Ian Josephs is one of the more prominent ones, known for giving fare money to any woman looking to evade SS, without even looking at the reasons for SS having concerns.

Maybe they thought the Channel small boats people smugglers would have some spare seats on the return journey.

MOO.
Actually they could have booked a round trip and with her acting abilities and middle eastern experience ,return as refugees and get accommodation in a 4 star hotel.
 
I dont think SS knew she was pregnant again until the car fire. They could have left the country when she first became pregnant,but of course MG had to report weekly to a Police station so would have been difficult ,
I think it has been stated that police in Sheffield on 19 December when MG went to the police station to report noted the possibility that she might be pregnant, but I couldn't find the link. Whether the SS had an alert out, who knows? Also why on earth would she accompany him inside the building? If someone from the SS were to give evidence in court and permit themselves to be cross-examined the jurors might be in a better position to form an opinion on what SS officers did and when and why.
 
I think photo ID is sufficient for entry into NI from the UK, for UK citizens. Sure someone will correct me if I've got that wrong.
NI is in the UK. Travelling from GB to NI you definitely don't need to show (or possess) a passport, but you need ID to get on the plane or ferry. Same applies from GB to RoI. In RoI they might very occasionally ask for a passport but it's rare and they will probably let you in without one.

IME you are more likely to get police looking in the boot of a car when travelling between GB and NI than between GB and RoI.

As for travel from GB to continental Europe, best for anyone who's trying this to have up-to-date info regarding what immigration checks are like on specific routes and at specific sailing times.

Generally speaking, checks are MUCH laxer when people enter continental Europe from GB than when they enter GB from CE.

Contrary to myth, Britain is hard to enter unlawfully from CE. Most illegal immigrants entered lawfully and overstayed.
 
""Mr FitzGibbon asked Miss Marten how she had been transporting her daughter as they moved around the country.

He said: “Was there a time before Victoria died that she was being carried in a carrier bag?”

She replied: “No.



Is it possible CM had Victoria under her coat after they dumped the buggy in Flower and Dean Walk in Whitechapel? She's not holding her with either arm. Her arms swing quite jauntily. Is this consistent with having a baby in a sling?


RBBMFF
It is possible to have the baby secured tightly enough to you that you don't need hands.
I did babywearing with my youngest, who is now 10. I had to walk my elder daughter to school every morning and pick her up every afternoon. It was January/February in the Snowbelt in the middle of the Great Lakes, Ontario, in Canada. I could not havehave pushed a stroller/pram in 1 to 2 feet of snow, so I would have my son in a sling or a baby-wearing scarf, a long, sturdy, but flexible cloth which you wrap around you and the baby. Similar to what you would see in other countries, with the baby strapped to the mother's back. It was comfortable and secure, and I did not need my hands unless I had to bend down.
Let me add this was sometimes in -30! I would dress baby, wrap him to me, then wear my coat over the top. It wasn't a long walk, 10 minutes there and back, but he and I would be hot and getting sweaty by the time I got home.
I mentioned this back in the early days when they were first missing.
There were no times my son was uncomfortable, cold or unsafe.


Babywearing is the practice of wearing or carrying a baby in a sling or in another form of carrier. Babywearing has been practiced for millennia around the world. Babywearing is a form of baby transport which can be used for as long as mutually desired, often until toddlerhood and beyond. In the industrialized world, babywearing has gained popularity in recent decades. Part of the reason for this shift is due to the influence of advocates of attachment parenting.
Babywearing - Wikipedia

This is very similar to what I used, but when I first researched the wraps, I saw many people use homemade wraps with their own material or scarves as the 'official' wraps are quite expensive.
Moby Baby Wraps
6000206332985.jpg
 
4:48PM

Constance Marten: “When I woke up...she wasn’t alive’​



Moving to the time when baby Victoria died, Miss Marten said it had happened on the night of January 8 while they were all asleep.
She said: “I had her in my jacket and when I woke up...she wasn’t alive. I believe it was January 9.”
She said prior to that she had been happy and well and had been feeding every three or four hours.
Asked what happened next, Miss Marten explained: “I took her out of my jacket. I believe I woke Mark up and said something is wrong. He did not believe me so we tried to resuscitate her.
“She wasn’t alive but we just didn’t want to accept the fact she was not alive. You do not want to accept when someone has passed away, it was harrowing, it’s too much to take in.”
She said she and Mr Gordon were not thinking straight at that point and were in “shock and despair”.



 
No electric tracing ...It is more than likely this was an auto correct error and was supposed to read electronic. They would pay cash rather than by card.
Yes, agreed. I had it in my mind for some reason that she was talking about the accommodation itself. But you are right - she was talking about the payment for it.
 

Marten relives the moment she awoke to find her baby dead in court​

Voice trembling, Marten relived the moment she woke up to find her baby dead inside her jacket.
She told the Old Bailey baby Victoria been “happy and content” as they pitched a tent in the South Downs on 8 January last year.
But she awoke to find her dead after she fell asleep with her inside her jacket.
“I had her in my jacket and when I woke up my head was on the floor,” she told the jury.
“I took her out of my jacket. I believe I woke Mark up and said ‘babe there’s something wrong’.
“But he didn’t believe me so he tried to resuscitate her but she wasn’t alive. He just didn’t accept that she wasn’t alive. He was trying to see if she would breathe.”



 
Were they thinking NI is still part of the UK and decided it would not be the best plan so about turned it to get on the other coast and head to France or The Netherlands.
Sounds rather like Mark wasn't going to me.
I still do think NI was the best plan and to head over the border into Donegal or Sligo onto that west coast.
Lots of places are really welcoming to 'blow ins'.
Wouldn't they need some form of ID for the baby, even for NI? So weren't they stuffed once the baby was born - unless, perhaps, they could have concealed taking her on a car ferry?
 
Explaining why the couple had chosen that area, she said: “We wanted to be near a port so we had two plans in our mind. The first was to get a cottage that we could pay for with cash with no electrical tracing and also to be near a port so that someone could smuggle us abroad. Our plan was only to be in the tent for a day or two maximum.”

Okay - so complete fantasist thinking! Who would smuggle two people and a new born baby who are wanted by Police and SS!
Maybe someone would if offered enough money, It works for people being smuggled in after all.
But there was a 10k reward so maybe not
 
5:15PM

Marten says she considered taking her life​



Constance Marten’s defence counsel Francis FitzGibbon KC then asked her what the couple’s plans had been with the body of baby Victoria.
She said at one point she considered cremating the remains, and even thought about ending her own life at the same time.
She explained: “Mark said ‘why don’t we jump in with her, call it quits? Let’s just all have a fire and say goodbye to life together. We had just had enough at that point.”
As she continued to give evidence her own mother, who was in court, sobbed quietly.




 
So much was missing from the defence questions with regards around the decision making of CM and MG.

This should leave the prosecution in a stronger position by mainly asking probing questions to reveal the truth.

I wonder if the contents of that passed over note will be revealed if it has any relevance to the jury?
 
Last edited:
Oh dear

Judge says she saw Gordon pass Marten a note before her testimony

Ahead of a break in her evidence, Judge Mark Lucraft KC warned Marten not to speak to anyone and noted seeing Gordon pass her a note before she began her testimony.
He told her: “He must not do that. It’s you giving evidence, not him.”


He means in between when she is sworn in as a witness and when she is discharged as a witness. Fine at other times.

This case will overrun now. It was due to finish by tomorrow. There's no way the jury will retire before next week. CM hasn't even finished giving her evidence in chief. To come, we have the rest of her evidence, any other witnesses she is calling, three closing speeches, the judge's summing up, and possibly other eventualities too such as extensive legal argument or witnesses being called back. It could easily be next Wednesday or later before the jurors go out.
 
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