UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[Nikynoo]

"Mr Fitzgibbon insisted baby Victoria died on 9 January – the day after the couple pitched a tent on the South Downs, before the couple purchased petrol on 12 January as they considered cremating the infant"

This has reminded me - I am pretty sure that in her testimony about what they did after the death of Victoria CM said that she had done nothing but stay in the tent in her grief, for 4 or 5 days. And yet here she is on CCTV at a petrol station buying petrol

the petrol buying is here https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/pod...-lets-just-call-it-01hrftawc0aymnjw4bb8vn1zzg
This is also where CM testifies about them cremating V.

 

[DianaWW]

There's a new podcast been released which covers yesterday.

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-mark-gordon-it-was-a-tragic-accident-01hvnwj1gcsa07fg8pbd0j0h6b

 

[Alyce]

23 minutes ago

Trial returns after lunch break​

The trial has started again and the court will hear further from Francis Fitzgibbon KC, who is defending Constance Marten.


27 seconds ago

Weather was not below freezing when they arrived in Sussex, court hears​

Mr Fitzgibbon denied that baby Victoria died of hypothermia – insisting the weather was not freezing when the parents arrived in Sussex.
Marten claims the infant died inside her jack on 9 January, just a day after they pitched the tent on the South Downs.
“Conditions were not freezing. There was no ice or snow or frost,” Mr Fitzgibbon told the court.
He added: “It was not toasty warm, for sure, but neither was it freezing cold or wintry.
“So carried within Constance Marten’s puffer jacket – was she likely to become dangerously cold?”

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

 

[iamshadow21]

There's this idea that you can't die of hypothermia unless it's below freezing, which is garbage. People die here in the summer of hypothermia when they get lost hiking. In Australia. All it takes is for your core temperature to drop by a few degrees.

 

[Alyce]

36 minutes ago

Baby Victoria was not a victim of abuse, court told​

Mr Fitzgibbon insisted that the infant’s death was a “tragic accident” which could have happened anywhere after Marten fell asleep holding her child.
He said parents are prosecuted in cases where the children are found to be have been abused, but “we say there is no such abuse here”.
“A woman who has given birth two weeks or so before will be exhausted by caring for her baby wherever she may be,” he added.


22 minutes ago

Prosecution accused of ‘nasty class prejudice’ against Marten​

Mr Fitzgibbon said repeated references to Marten’s “rich and privileged” background and her trust fund were a “distraction” and an “irrelevance”.
“The comment made yesterday about her upstairs downstairs attitude was just throwing a bit of nasty class prejudice,” he added. “Just another little smear.”
It comes after prosecutor Tom Little KC yesterday suggested Marten had an “upstairs, downstairs mentality” after she referred to a witness as a “random workman”.

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

Looks as though FitzGibbon has finished. Judge has other business at 4pm today with Fiona Beal pre trial.

Central Criminal Court​	5​	T20237104​	constance marten mark alton gordon​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 10:38 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 11:00 - 10:40 Trial (Part Heard) - CONSTANCE MARTEN; Defence Closing Speech - 11:03 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 12:25 - 12:04 Trial (Part Heard) - CONSTANCE MARTEN; Defence Closing Speech - 12:33 Trial (Part Heard) - Legal Submissions - 13:00 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 14:05 - 13:01 Trial (Part Heard) - CONSTANCE MARTEN; Defence Closing Speech - 14:19 Trial (Part Heard) - Summing Up - 14:59 Trial (Part Heard) - Legal Submissions - 15:30 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 00:00 - 15:34

www.thelawpages.com

 

[iamshadow21]

36 minutes ago

Baby Victoria was not a victim of abuse, court told​

Mr Fitzgibbon insisted that the infant’s death was a “tragic accident” which could have happened anywhere after Marten fell asleep holding her child.
He said parents are prosecuted in cases where the children are found to be have been abused, but “we say there is no such abuse here”.
“A woman who has given birth two weeks or so before will be exhausted by caring for her baby wherever she may be,” he added.


22 minutes ago

Prosecution accused of ‘nasty class prejudice’ against Marten​

Mr Fitzgibbon said repeated references to Marten’s “rich and privileged” background and her trust fund were a “distraction” and an “irrelevance”.
“The comment made yesterday about her upstairs downstairs attitude was just throwing a bit of nasty class prejudice,” he added. “Just another little smear.”
It comes after prosecutor Tom Little KC yesterday suggested Marten had an “upstairs, downstairs mentality” after she referred to a witness as a “random workman”.

Constance Marten trial: Death of aristocrat and partner’s newborn a ‘tragic accident’

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

I think the relevance is clear. While through poverty and misfortune and war many mothers have to raise their children in tents in the freezing cold, CM had money in the bank and did it by choice, despite the risk to her deeply vulnerable newborn. She had resources. She did not use them.

MOO

 

[jackal67]

That's a question that would be impossible to answer without knowing the full history of DV incidents that are on police/medical records, the full social services records and the transcripts of their family court proceedings.

And if CM got pregnant by someone else ?

 

[Maryanna]

And if CM got pregnant by someone else ?

They seem to have a very strong and loving relationship.
If they plan to have more children, I would have thought they'd emigrate.

 

[jackal67]

Anyone else think they will get off lightly with this? I have an awful feeling they are going to walk away from this or at best a very short custodial sentence

Yes I fear you are right sadly? What is the max sentence if found guilty of all charges? Anyone know?

 

[jackal67]

They seem to have a very strong and loving relationship.
If they plan to have more children, I would have thought they'd emigrate.

I hope that never happens !! Doubt they would be allowed or else why not leave the country before the birth of baby V
I believe MG has terms and conditions in regards to his previous offences anyway

 

[jackal67]

I do hope so...I personally think they should get a good 10 years each

Lets hope so

 

[jackal67]

Inappropriate litotes from Tom Little:

"Referring to Ms Marten's evidence, he said: 'Jesus was born in a barn, yes, but Bethlehem is hardly a skiing destination.' "

Constance Marten told 'big fat lies' over baby's death, court hears

Prosecutor Tom Little KC says Constance Marten, 36, has lied to the jury about what happened.

www.bbc.co.uk

I believe CM originally used Jesus as an example of people not living in houses with babies
Very silly comparison anyway IMO

 

[Alyce]

There's a new podcast been released which covers yesterday.

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-mark-gordon-it-was-a-tragic-accident-01hvnwj1gcsa07fg8pbd0j0h6b

Another very good Podcast with far more useful info from the trial.

 

[Alyce]

www.courtserve.net The Crown Court at Central Criminal Court Daily Courtroom List for Thursday 18 April 2024​ FINAL 1​

Court 5 - sitting at 10:00 am

THE RECORDER OF LONDON​

Trial (Part Heard)

T20237104	GORDON Mark A	01MP1072723	SUSWM	CPS
	MARTEN Constance	01MP1072723

DTA, Order made under Contempt of Court Act 1981

​

 

[jackal67]

"Mr Fitzgibbon insisted baby Victoria died on 9 January – the day after the couple pitched a tent on the South Downs, before the couple purchased petrol on 12 January as they considered cremating the infant"

This has reminded me - I am pretty sure that in her testimony about what they did after the death of Victoria CM said that she had done nothing but stay in the tent in her grief, for 4 or 5 days. And yet here she is on CCTV at a petrol station buying petrol

Yes and sweets and snacks!

 

[Baby baby Jane]

The high number makes me think that neither the prosecution nor the defence has been particuarly clear in the presentation of their respective cases.

IMO the volume of questions is jury trying to sort thru all the irrelevant info from CM, she should have been answering per “agreed facts”, not all of her ramblings. Jury needs to understand what to accept & disregard as there are no witnesses to support her wild claims.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Found it, thanks, hadn't seen your reply when I posted.
So my question is whether CM would have known that a hypothermic baby would not have been feeding?
I would not have known and I'm a nurse but not a midwife.
It may be common knowledge..

To me, listening to both podcasts Prof Fleming is a credible witness.

CM was asleep when the baby died.
She cannot know the circumstances at time of death.
She has made assumptions, she can have NO certainty about the cause because she was asleep.

Prof Fleming is basing his opinion, on CMs assumptions about what happened while she was asleep.

He is a witness that CM is paying to support her version of events <modsnip: Removed opinion stated as fact>.

 

[Alyce]

This is a really useful Podcast, just out today ( as I said elsewhere, like buses, none at all or several at once ),

They go into great detail about the 5 charges, the order in which the Jury must approach them, what to discard if need be ( depending on whether they find guilty or NG on certain charges ) and the level that needs to be reached for Gross Negligence Manslaughter.

Also, of interest. The Jury have had their own room at the Old Bailey since the beginning of the trial. So they have been able to discuss the case amongst themselves as the trial progressed. Which hopefully is going to save some time when it comes to them going out to deliberate and reach a verdict.

Fresh From The Old Bailey: Special Season: The Constance Marten Trial - Episode 5 on Apple Podcasts

Show Fresh From The Old Bailey, Ep Special Season: The Constance Marten Trial - Episode 5 - 16 Apr 2024

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Alyce]

Jury isn’t allowed to discuss until trial is over.
They always have a “room” during a trial.

Podcast reference - 22.00 minutes.

Juries at the Old Bailey are not always given a room during the trial.
All Jurors are allowed to discuss the ongoing trial when all 12 of them ( in this case 11 ) are present.