UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[OrangeCash]

Forcibly stopping people from having children is a crime against humanity.

Have they been forcibly stopped?

What's the opposite to letting them "live their life producing children one after the other"?

but did you not infer, that by being found guilty and their freedom taken away, would do just that?

I see the points made both sides of the argument - Anyway, moving on.

Sorry I still don't get the forcibly stopped thing. Are you saying because they've been arrested they've been forcibly stopped? Because they're physically apart and can't have sex? Genuinely asking because I don't understand where you're coming from

 

[Amaz0nia]

She can have em. She just can't keep em.
Her 'right' to be a mother does not trump her child's right to be safe, cared for and alive.

<modsnip>

Pretty comfortable with social services removing any future kids she has directly from the birth canal. If you kill a baby while on the run from very warranted SS intervention, you don't get to have a do over baby.

Exactly that 100%

 

[OceanElix]

She can have em. She just can't keep em.
Her 'right' to be a mother does not trump her child's right to be safe, cared for and alive.

<modsnip>

Pretty comfortable with social services removing any future kids she has directly from the birth canal. If you kill a baby while on the run from very warranted SS intervention, you don't get to have a do over baby.

Refreshing.
This 100%.

 

[Parker Knoll]

She should NEVER be allowed to give birth again.
She is not fit to call herself a mother.
Just my opinion.

 

[Amaz0nia]

but did you not infer, that by being found guilty and their freedom taken away, would do just that?

I see the points made both sides of the argument - Anyway, moving on.

But that woud happen to anyone that was found guilty of GNM if their liberty was taken away with a jail stint. Maybe instead of any time served seen as ‘punishment’ instead a good long period of therapy & counselling, timeaway from MG and any other distractions would help CM deal with the loss of all her children, as according to the defense this is at the centre of the reasons they did what they did with Victoria.

 

[Alyce]

​

Central Criminal Court​	5​	T20237104​	constance marten mark alton gordon​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 11:10 Trial (Part Heard) - Summing Up - 11:13 Trial (Part Heard) - Legal Submissions - 11:50 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 12:00 - 11:51 Trial (Part Heard) - Summing Up - 12:09

www.thelawpages.com

 

[Nikynoo]

But that woud happen to anyone that was found guilty of GNM if their liberty was taken away with a jail stint. Maybe instead of any time served seen as ‘punishment’ instead a good long period of therapy & counselling, away from MG and any other distractions would help CM deal with the loss of all her children, as according to the defense this is at the centre of the reasons they did what they did with Victoria.

CM (and possibly MG) MAY benefit from therapy, but it could be she is just the way she is.

I don't know her, I don't know her circumstances (other than what has been reported) nor do I know the full circumstances of why the children were removed or the other moving parts of her story (e.g. family).

As someone posted earlier in this or a previous thread, women who have children removed and then continue to have more and they are removed also. A better way, perhaps, is to invest some time in these mothers (because like it or not, that is what they are) to stop the vicious cycle of subsequent children being put in care, because otherwise you are taking their right to be a parent via another route. I have thoughts about children being placed in care, but I will not share them here, because it is not always done for the best interests of a child IMO.

MOO MOO and all that.

 

[Alyce]

34 minutes ago

Judge is summing up the evidence​

The Recorder of London, Judge Mark Lucraft KC, is summing up the evidence to the jury as the trial enters its final stages.
Evidence recapped so far includes eyewitness Ken Hudson, who stopped to help the couple when their car caught fire on the M61 near Bolton on 5 January.
Mr Hudson previously told the court he fears baby Victoria would still be alive if he had stayed at the roadside with the parents until police arrived.
But the pair fled with baby Victoria after he pulled away, leaving their burning car at the roadside along with most of their possessions.
Police later found £2000 in cash, Marten’s passport, 34 burner phones and a placenta wrapped in a towel in the burnt out vehicle.

Constance Marten trial enters final stages as judge summing up evidence - live

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

 

[rockthecasbah]

34 minutes ago

Judge is summing up the evidence​

The Recorder of London, Judge Mark Lucraft KC, is summing up the evidence to the jury as the trial enters its final stages.
Evidence recapped so far includes eyewitness Ken Hudson, who stopped to help the couple when their car caught fire on the M61 near Bolton on 5 January.
Mr Hudson previously told the court he fears baby Victoria would still be alive if he had stayed at the roadside with the parents until police arrived.
But the pair fled with baby Victoria after he pulled away, leaving their burning car at the roadside along with most of their possessions.
Police later found £2000 in cash, Marten’s passport, 34 burner phones and a placenta wrapped in a towel in the burnt out vehicle.

Constance Marten trial enters final stages as judge summing up evidence - live

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

Poor witness, I think they would have run off anyway even if he had stayed at the roadside

 

[Lifeonaline]

With regard to the contention around Victoria's birth date, did the pathologist examine and conduct tests on the placenta to determine how fresh / old it was ?

If the placenta was over a week old that could perhaps support the idea of Victoria's birth date being around 24th December.

If it was a day or two old, it could support the prosecutions estimate of her birth date.

I'm sure they must have done these tests on the placenta, but was it brought forward in any of the prosecutions evidence ?

At the scene of the car fire, they could identify that there was a placenta (on the back seat ?) and that was what alerted them to the fact a baby had recently been born.

If as CM says, the birth was 24th December, the placenta would have been around 12 days old by the time of the car fire.
Surely, it would have been pretty smelly by then and not very pleasant in the small confined space of a car.

MOO, given all the surrounding facts, its quite possible that Victoria was born just a day or two before the car fire. Perhaps in the back seat of the car.

Why then, would they not say she was born in the car ? Perhaps the story of a Christmas eve birth in a safe warm and peaceful environment is a better narrative. (MOO)

 

[jackal67]

Forcibly stopping people from having children is a crime against humanity. No other country in the world classifies any woman as unfit to have children or to "produce" them "one after the other" to use your terminology.

No they cannot be prevented from giving birth to children But most Countries will be lawfully able to remove those children from parents who are unfit to parent them.
It is for the childs protection.As it should be

 

[jackal67]

With regard to the contention around Victoria's birth date, did the pathologist examine and conduct tests on the placenta to determine how fresh / old it was ?

If the placenta was over a week old that could perhaps support the idea of Victoria's birth date being around 24th December.

If it was a day or two old, it could support the prosecutions estimate of her birth date.

I'm sure they must have done these tests on the placenta, but was it brought forward in any of the prosecutions evidence ?

At the scene of the car fire, they could identify that there was a placenta (on the back seat ?) and that was what alerted them to the fact a baby had recently been born.

If as CM says, the birth was 24th December, the placenta would have been around 12 days old by the time of the car fire.
Surely, it would have been pretty smelly by then and not very pleasant in the small confined space of a car.

MOO, given all the surrounding facts, its quite possible that Victoria was born just a day or two before the car fire. Perhaps in the back seat of the car.

Why then, would they not say she was born in the car ? Perhaps the story of a Christmas eve birth in a safe warm and peaceful environment is a better narrative. (MOO)

I agree. Giving birth in a cottage sounds way better than the back seat of a car !
It seems very convenient that the birth happened at a holiday cottage which was pre booked , She may not even have been aware of her due date as she had had no medical attention dating scans etc !

 

[Alyce]

1 hour ago

Holiday cottage in Northumberland left in disarray​

Judge Mark Lucraft KC is continuing his summing up of the evidence this afternoon. Jurors were previously told how Marten and Gordon spent Christmas 2022 at a holiday cottage in Northumberland.
The pair had reserved the holiday let called ‘Woodcutters Cottage’ for six nights on the Booking.com website.
Owners said they found the cottage in disarray when they checked out - with candle wax and cat litter on the floors and carpets, the bed throw stained with curry, and the bathroom littered with urine stains, the court heard.
When she gave evidence, Marten told the jury she had delivered baby Victoria unaided in the cottage on Christmas Eve.

7 minutes ago

Eyewitness thought Marten looked homeless​

Judge Lucraft reminded jurors of evidence from an eyewitness who said she saw Marten looking in a shop window in East Ham, London, on 7 January.
The woman said Marten looked like she might be homeless and it appeared she was trying not to attract attention to something she was carrying under her coat.
“She looked like she had something wrapped in her coat, which initially guessed was something that could have been stolen or could have been a pet,” Judge Lucraft recounted.
“However in hindsight she thought it could have been a baby.”
That evening, Gordon bought a tent, sleeping bags and two pillows from Argos in Whitechapel.

Constance Marten trial enters final stages as judge summing up evidence - live

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

 

[dotr]

In my fantasy experiment land, CM would be allowed to leave jail on the condition that she lives in one of her parent's homes, while they act as her 'keepers'.
She would be allowed to set up a tent in the backyard and live it, MG can visit her under supervised conditions, so as not to scare her family or any nearby neighbours.

If she becomes pregnant again while living in that imaginary tent on the family lawn, she will have to take heavy duty child rearing classes and give birth with backup medical assistance should it be required.
She could stay with that baby to prove herself a worthy mother and to provide the all important new born nursing, but under strict supervision.
MG meanwhile, could be trained in how to be a good daddy bear, by encouraging CM to follow those rules such as they are, maybe even leave CM for the long term good of all of them.
Not that i think they should have - and keep another baby, but wondering if they would, or even could do it properly after all this?

Maybe i missed it, but did either one ever ask about the cat that they left at the side of the road?
imo speculation.

 

[Alyce]

Central Criminal Court​	5​	T20237104​	constance marten mark alton gordon​
Details: Trial (Part Heard) - Resume - 11:10 Trial (Part Heard) - Summing Up - 11:13 Trial (Part Heard) - Legal Submissions - 11:50 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 12:00 - 11:51 Trial (Part Heard) - Summing Up - 12:09 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 14:10 - 12:36 Trial (Part Heard) - Summing Up - 14:29 Trial (Part Heard) - Case adjourned until 15:30 - 15:16 Trial (Part Heard) - Summing Up - 15:38

www.thelawpages.com

 

[OrangeCash]

As someone posted earlier in this or a previous thread, women who have children removed and then continue to have more and they are removed also. A better way, perhaps, is to invest some time in these mothers (because like it or not, that is what they are) to stop the vicious cycle of subsequent children being put in care

I agree, keep the child safe away from the issue while you offer therapy and outline the steps necessary to becoming a safe parent before reuniting them. CM and MG chose to stop doing that with their other children and fled with this one
MOO

 

[Nikynoo]

CM and MG chose to stop doing that with their other children and fled with this one
MOO

we don't know that though do we - we only know what is reported including the remarks of the judge of the childcare case.

 

[Alyce]

22 minutes ago

Jurors reminded of moment Marten and Gordon were arrested​

The court heard how the couple were arrested after 53 days on the run.
Summing up, Judge Lucraft reminded jurors how the couple were spotted by a member of the public as they bought food from Mulberry convenience shop in Brighton on 27 February last year.
When police arrested them at nearby Stanmer Villas, Marten had what appeared to be furniture stuffing in her jacket as insulation.
The court previously heard how Marten told police her name was Arabella and said “you can’t arrest someone for hiding a pregnancy” when she was caught

Constance Marten trial enters final stages as judge summing up evidence - live

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

5 minutes ago

Trial concludes for the day​

The trial has concluded for the day, with the Recorder of London Judge Mark Lucraft KC due to conclude his summary of the case on Wednesday.

Constance Marten trial enters final stages as judge summing up evidence - live

Marten and Gordon are accused of gross negligence manslaghter of the newborn

www.independent.co.uk

 

[DianaWW]

We do know they didn’t turn up for planned visits for months on end though don’t we? Possibly due to paranoia/they wanted CCTV etc…but still! They were given the opportunity to make the necessary changes needed to be good parents to their children, and to keep custody, but they didn’t do that. I know it’s not black and white, and I do empathise to a certain extent, but it’s really difficult to excuse some of their actions, when they refuse to acknowledge that they’ve made any mistakes. JMO.