UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #7

[Bluebear15]

I hope that they are found guilty on all charges. I only care about baby Victoria and her very short life so callously snuffed out

 

[Alyce]

Aaahhh, this is never ending….

@bobbymkii … will leave you to share the news.

 

[Cardgame]

Aaahhh, this is never ending….

@bobbymkii … will leave you to share the news.

What's the news????

 

[bobbymkii]

Aaahhh, this is never ending….

@bobbymkii … will leave you to share the news.

why me?!

According to the DM podcast (which is literally the only place reporting on today's court proceedings so far) Recorder Lucraft has still not finished Summing up and won't until "some time next week."

 

[Cardgame]

Re. Parents meddling, I don't have a lot of experience with wealthy people but the few times I have encountered them, the thing they have all had in common is that their families stay entrenched and entangled in each other's business way longer than in other families where "family money" is not an issue.

The hiring of PI's could have been to do with finding out where the money was going or what debts were mounting. CM seems to have been a constant and unpredictable financial drain on the trust and the situation was clearly escalating.

JMO.

 

[BreadnLumpit]

why me?!

According to the DM podcast (which is literally the only place reporting on today's court proceedings so far) Recorder Lucraft has still not finished Summing up and won't until "some time next week."

Oh, for pity's sake!! This is verging on farcical now lol.
Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, creeps in this petty pace, to the last syllable of recorded time.

 

[bobbymkii]

Re. Parents meddling, I don't have a lot of experience with wealthy people but the few times I have encountered them, the thing they have all had in common is that their families stay entrenched and entangled in each other's business way longer than in other families where "family money" is not an issue.

The hiring of PI's could have been to do with finding out where the money was going or what debts were mounting. CM seems to have been a constant and unpredictable financial drain on the trust and the situation was clearly escalating.

JMO.

It was one of the bigger surprises of this trial for me to find out that there was actually some basis to the PI accusations. I thought it was going to turn out to be a complete fabrication! Still, I think Connie is pushing it a lot to suggest that the PI's were following her around the country, sabotaging their vehicles and neccessitating that they carry over 30 different burner phones.

 

[Maryanna]

Re. Parents meddling, I don't have a lot of experience with wealthy people but the few times I have encountered them, the thing they have all had in common is that their families stay entrenched and entangled in each other's business way longer than in other families where "family money" is not an issue.

The hiring of PI's could have been to do with finding out where the money was going or what debts were mounting. CM seems to have been a constant and unpredictable financial drain on the trust and the situation was clearly escalating.

JMO.

Yes. It shouldn't be assumed that the hiring of PIs was principally to do with a concern for child welfare. I was going to say the answer to "Why the PIs?" was probably "money", but held back for fear of being thought flippant. But it probably was (IMO).

Had either parent given oral testimony, one of the most obvious questions to ask would have been "Why did you sicc a PI onto your daughter?"

<modsnip - not victim friendy>

 

[guiser]

Except I didn't say "without asking their son or daughter".
For me, hiring investigators would not be a first resort but a last one if all appeals to reason had failed.
We simply don't know what caused the parent/s to engage a PI but I suggest that if it was something that a jury would consider was unjustified surely the defence would have made a much bigger deal of it.

 

[kittythehare]

Except I didn't say "without asking their son or daughter".
For me, hiring investigators would not be a first resort but a last one if all appeals to reason had failed.
We simply don't know what caused the parent/s to engage a PI but I suggest that if it was something that a jury would consider was unjustified surely the defence would have made a much bigger deal of it.

Reason for what, though?
I assume she had a lawyer on dial-up to manage her trust fund at the very least. Said lawyer obviously had a way to contact here, maybe 1/37 burners ways for all we know..

A PI in a case like that if I'm correct takes on a whole new meaning.. more like spying and invading..
I think it's something that should have been explored further..
Were her fears real or a delusion?

 

[guiser]

Reason for what, though?

I don't know. WE don't know because it hasn't been reported.
It might have been for reasons connected with money, or it might have been that Constance's parents were concerned for her safety or for that of her children.

Either way, it's possible that the family had tried to resolve whatever the issue was before taking the somewhat drastic step of hiring investigators ....... but we don't know because the reasons have not been reported and the parent/s haven't been called as witnesses to clarify.
It might be completely over the top spying and invading, but it's equally likely to be a last resort for parents who'd already seen their daughter, who appears to have some kind of psychological/personality disorder, run away to join a cult, take up with a man with a violent past and then get pregnant.

It's a mystery to me why the defence didn't make more of the investigator angle, but perhaps they thought the jury would consider it entirely reasonable under the circumstances - circumstances we aren't privy to so it's almost pointless discussing them.

 

[Maryanna]

Reason for what, though?
I assume she had a lawyer on dial-up to manage her trust fund at the very least. Said lawyer obviously had a way to contact here, maybe 1/37 burners ways for all we know..

A PI in a case like that if I'm correct takes on a whole new meaning.. more like spying and invading..
I think it's something that should have been explored further..
Were her fears real or a delusion?

I doubt as the beneficiary of a trust fund with a lot of discretion involved she has been in a position to involve herself much in its management. Not sure that it's lawyers who are managing it either. It might be Hoares the private bankers.

What the PIs were tasked to investigate other than her location remains a mystery, as does what those who hired the PIs did with any information they found.

 

[CaptainNancy]

The family are not on trial for engaging PIs.

The trial is about the death of Victoria and whether her parents decisions and actions contributed to her death, and whether they acted unlawfully in the reporting of her birth and death.

Whether her parents engaged a PI company, Miss Marple or the Hound of the Baskervilles is irrelevant unless it provides evidence or defence to their actions in respect of their responsibility to their baby.

That they felt under pressure from various forces may help explain why they took certain decisions, and might end up as mitigation, but the question is did they put their baby at risk. That’s all.

The rest is interesting, may well be discussed in the Press after the trial… let’s see!

 

[Nikynoo]

Reason for what, though?
I assume she had a lawyer on dial-up to manage her trust fund at the very least. Said lawyer obviously had a way to contact here, maybe 1/37 burners ways for all we know..

A PI in a case like that if I'm correct takes on a whole new meaning.. more like spying and invading..
I think it's something that should have been explored further..
Were her fears real or a delusion?

The Hoare Trust had a way of contacting CM and in fact tried to contact her after the fifth January. I would imagine that CMs relationship with the contact at the Hoare Trust was long standing as there appeared to be (from the evidence submitted) much emailing back and forth re requests for additional funds and/or increase to the monthly payments.

It is clear that the relationship with her father had broken down. CM has testified that she decided to cut all ties with a family member when she met MG. IMO that family member was her father. Doesn’t she have a right to not have that relationship with him or any other family member if she doesn’t want to?

 

[kittythehare]

The Hoare Trust had a way of contacting CM and in fact tried to contact her after the fifth January. I would imagine that CMs relationship with the contact at the Hoare Trust was long standing as there appeared to be (from the evidence submitted) much emailing back and forth re requests for additional funds and/or increase to the monthly payments.

It is clear that the relationship with her father had broken down. CM has testified that she decided to cut all ties with a family member when she met MG. IMO that family member was her father. Doesn’t she have a right to not have that relationship with him or any other family member if she doesn’t want to?

Of course she does.
I recall he did something unusual in his life too.
They were divorced, her parents so it's not like they were at home fretting together and praying for the recalcitrant child every day together. She had and has every right and they have very few, if any..

 

[ShadowPuppet]

I think she killed a baby.
What manipulation? The minute she gots hold of another baby she proved the courts, social services and her family right. She was not a safe mother and didn't make choices that prioritise her kids health or safety.

She says a lot of conspiritorial stuff. Most of it unbelievable. If her family did hire PIs to find her/the kids I find that entirely reasonable. Especially if she was dodging SS and the kids had no oversight until they were found. It's no secret SS is under resourced, so the family could have decided it was worth locating her for them.

<modsnip - mental health discussion>

I must say Gordon's strategy to disappear in this trial is working very well. He should have been a lightning rod for a villain narrative. Instead Marten has done all the talking and attracted all the commentary and the criticism. His role and impact on their choices has all but disappeared into the background. Despite their relationship having all the classic risk factors for high risk controlling DV: significant history of violence, decade age difference, quick successive pregnancies, cutting off family and friends etc. Sitting down and shutting up was probably his smartest play.

I agree in lots of ways. I think MG’s police interviews demonstrated a lot and I personally won’t forget them.

Both MG and CM chose to go on the run. They may have felt pushed, but it was still their decision. They could have been upfront and honest and asked for help. They could have - if they’d truly wanted - gone abroad much earlier (though I think it would have risked a similar outcome).

I don’t know what the jury will decide, but I do think they demonstrated SS were right. They failed to provide a safe level of consistent care. Yes, they had some disasters like the car fire along the way, but there was little effort to ensure Victoria’s basic safety. The whole picture is a very different story to an episode of non-safe co-sleeping where all other factors are normal.

I don’t hate CM, but I do think she hasn’t accepted or understood what is needed to parent safely - from the buggy to the bizarre placing Victoria in it to the lack of clothes to the lack of appropriate sleeping area to the cheap tent and seemingly invisible car seat, none of these things point to a parent making safe decisions.

I found both the closing speeches too emotional somehow. I know they’re often emotional, but throughout the court case it’s felt like there’s little to really grab on to but emotion. Whatever is decided, only CM and MG will ever know what went on. The main thing that still sticks with me is the desire for a PM and yet no coming forward with Victoria’s body. The fact Victoria’s body was so decomposed somehow took her voice away even more, preventing even her body from saying anything clearly.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If I believed my grandkids were in danger of harm by their own parents I'd use any means available to me to try to ensure their future safety.

100% this and I'm sure anyone here who was an abused, neglected, harmed, or injured in anyway whatsoever child wishes that just anyone had stuck their neck out for them. It's the biggest resentment, wondering why nobody did anything.

 

[Cardgame]

a last resort for parents who'd already seen their daughter, who appears to have some kind of psychological/personality disorder, run away to join a cult, take up with a man with a violent past and then get pregnant.

SBM I'm not disagreeing with your essential point, but I just want to flag that this narrative of CM is a little misleading and one which IMO has been media driven.

The cult is a long way in CM's past, though media reports have made it seem otherwise. She did lots of stuff since, which speak IMO to having made a pretty decent recovery from whatever trauma she alleges she went through (so far no third party accounts of CM being the cult so we have to take her word for it).

 

[Nikynoo]

100% this and I'm sure anyone here who was an abused, neglected, harmed, or injured in anyway whatsoever child wishes that just anyone had stuck their neck out for them. It's the biggest resentment, wondering why nobody did anything.

I agree. I have done this myself. But I didn’t engage PIs and I didn’t make an application to make the children Wards of the Court. What I did do was call and make a formal report to the Child Protection Team at the local police station and at the same time make a report to Social Services. My focus was my grandchildren, not their parents.

 

[Nikynoo]

SBM I'm not disagreeing with your essential point, but I just want to flag that this narrative of CM is a little misleading and one which IMO has been media driven.

The cult is a long way in CM's past, though media reports have made it seem otherwise. She did lots of stuff since, which speak IMO to having made a pretty decent recovery from whatever trauma she alleges she went through (so far no third party accounts of CM being the cult so we have to take her word for it).

I have wondered though, whether MG ‘triggered’ her, though on balance, I think it is more ‘saviour complex’.