UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #6

Peter Johnstone (in charge of the initial investigation) said that they checked the diary entry against Suzy's regular handwriting and it matched so they were convinced she put the entry in herself. For years people assumed that Mr Kipper was a genuine appointment but I think she put it in to make sure she had a legit reason to leave the office in case the big bosses came back from their lunch at Crocodile tears a few doors away. She was the only negotiator in the office and could not leave without a genuine reason and I think she planned to be somewhere and made it possible by placing the entry in the diary. I do not think Mr Kipper exists, no pun intended its a red herring and the single most unhelpful thing about the case and ironically the only thing people seem to remember about it when you mention the name SL.

Maybe Peter Johnstone was wrong, afterall it's only his opinion, not proof.

If Suzy Lamplugh was merely making up an excuse to leave the office, then calling the supposed client's name Kipper seems a very strange choice as, as I understand it, there is no-one of that name in this country so why would she assume that her bosses would be convinced that this was a genuine appointment?
My guess is that the name Mr Kipper is some sort of codename for the killer or killers.

JMO / MOO
 
Hi Supersleuth and welcome to the thread BTW.

DV did a good job in showing how much of the police case was assumption influenced by the family. The critique we had of his thesis around here at the time was that while he's right to point out the oddities around the PoW, it's very hard to see how this adds up to a case against KH, or how SJL is still there. If she died at the PoW she would more likely be on the embankment. As you have noted, it requires the barman to have hushed up a death without his partner knowing. It is not even clear that the pub was empty. It might have been, but it seems from the timing of the stock take that the aim was to be open normally at lunchtime. DV glosses over this.

The case against Cannan has been set out by Lady Stoddart-West above, and hinges mainly on his apparent accidental confession, and on information laid against him in the 1990s by his former fellow lag Joseph Taggart, now dead. Most noticeably, Taggart had a flat ten minutes' walk from Shorrolds Road. Cannan arriving from there on foot would solve the logistical problems that would arise from any theory in which each drove there in their own car and the pair then drove away in one of those cars - i.e. that someone would have had to go back to move the other car. AFAIK there's no corroborating evidence for Taggart's account, and he was not able to indicate any sites for her body.

The canal thing I think is simply fantasy. We are asked to believe that in 1989, someone recalled the day, date and time he saw Cannan three years before, and Cannan was obligingly behaving shiftily - carrying a big heavy suitcase, running away, etc. I think someone just wanted a bit of attention.

The reason why the quality of the "evidence" against Cannan is so poor is IMO that the police failed to notice or collect the right evidence at the time. They can't very well admit this, so they have to make out that the evidence of his guilt only came in later. This is why they rely on things like claimed sightings of him in flower shops in 1986, or staring in the window of estate agencies in 1986, supposedly recalled 15 or 20 years later. If, for example, they had checked in July 1986 for SA offenders released recently from HMP Wormwood Scrubs, Brixton, or Wandsworth, he'd have been under suspicion immediately.

The reported accounts of the Fiesta at 123SR are very hard to reconcile. It seems possible to me that she drove there, met someone who'd parked there, drove off with him in her car, and was seen by BW in the FPR. The passenger then perhaps killed her, drove back in her car to where he had left his own, collected that vehicle and left hers there. This would allow all the 123SR sightings to be correct. There's no actual evidence for it unless you take the view that this man had SJL drive to Taggart's flat, and that he was seen in her car en route headed that way by BW. He then drives back to 123SR and collects his car. Maybe.
 
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That’s a helpful response, DV outlined the same in his book, I can’t recall AS clarifying this in his book.
DV gave a reasonable explanation as to why SJL used this name and it makes sense. One of the Herring brothers lived at 55 Shorrolds Road and had recently moved from Wardo Ave.
DV also interviewed Wendy Jones, he made her out to be an unreliable witness. I understand why, it just didn’t fit with his narrative.
DV didn’t interview Barbara Whitfield, again I think he’d made his mind up and probably saw her as irrelevant.
That IMO is an error, BW is the only witness that actually knew SJL, and was part of the “Putney Set” as SJL’s mother called them.
She (again IMO) places SJL travelling along the Fulham Palace Road at 2.45pm and I feel she was right.
There are many explanations on the internet as to what happens after death, as you have pointed out the process is gross and effectively starts the minute death occurs.
The area around Gallows Bridge is (according to the Canal & River Trust) part of the river Brent, and is far deeper that a normal canal.
Depending on what material is used (in the suitcase) and any weight added it may not surface.
One thing is certain and that is we’re very unlikely to find SJL.
Having considered all that we do know I feel the former Met officer Jim D is right, but will never be able to prove it

Maybe DV was on to something with Wendy Jones? It would be interesting to know why he portrayed her as unreliable.

JMO / MOO
 
Maybe Peter Johnstone was wrong, afterall it's only his opinion, not proof.

If Suzy Lamplugh was merely making up an excuse to leave the office, then calling the supposed client's name Kipper seems a very strange choice as, as I understand it, there is no-one of that name in this country so why would she assume that her bosses would be convinced that this was a genuine appointment?
My guess is that the name Mr Kipper is some sort of codename for the killer or killers.

JMO / MOO
DV's logic is that she knew a bloke called Herring whose nickname was Kipper. Kipper had lived at Wardo Road - the address at the top of the page for that day in her diary - and had moved to Shorrolds, on an address in which road Sturgis had just been instructed. The first name that comes into her head is thus Kipper, and the first road, Shorrolds.

It has been said, not sure by what source, that there were other contacts by someone called Kipper with other local agents. This is interesting in that if true, it implies she did not make the name up. It still doesn't mean she was heading to Shorrolds that day; she could have written that diary entry then met him somewhere else entirely.

I still doubt that even Cannan would use his alleged prison nickname as an alias. It would be like Jack "The Hat" McVitie booking appointments as Mr Hat. It's not much of an alias that leads right back to you.
 
Hi Supersleuth and welcome to the thread BTW.

DV did a good job in showing how much of the police case was assumption influenced by the family. The critique we had of his thesis around here at the time was that while he's right to point out the oddities around the PoW, it's very hard to see how this adds up to a case against KH, or how SJL is still there. If she died at the PoW she would more likely be on the embankment. As you have noted, it requires the barman to have hushed up a death without his partner knowing. It is not even clear that the pub was empty. It might have been, but it seems from the timing of the stock take that the aim was to be open normally at lunchtime. DV glosses over this.

The case against Cannan has been set out by Lady Stoddart-West above, and hinges mainly on his apparent accidental confession, and on information laid against him in the 1990s by his former fellow lag Joseph Taggart, now dead. Most noticeably, Taggart had a flat ten minutes' walk from Shorrolds Road. Cannan arriving from there on foot would solve the logistical problems that would arise from any theory in which each drove there in their own car and the pair then drove away in one of those cars - i.e. that someone would have had to go back to move the other car. AFAIK there's no corroborating evidence for Taggart's account, and he was not able to indicate any sites for her body.

The canal thing I think is simply fantasy. We are asked to believe that in 1989, someone recalled the day, date and time he saw Cannan three years before, and Cannan was obligingly behaving shiftily - carrying a big heavy suitcase, running away, etc. I think someone just wanted a bit of attention.

The reason why the quality of the "evidence" against Cannan is so poor is IMO that the police failed to notice or collect the right evidence at the time. They can't very well admit this, so they have to make out that the evidence of his guilt only came in later. This is why they rely on things like claimed sightings of him in flower shops in 1986, or staring in the window of estate agencies in 1986, supposedly recalled 15 or 20 years later. If, for example, they had checked in July 1986 for SA offenders released recently from HMP Wormwood Scrubs, Brixton, or Wandsworth, he'd have been under suspicion immediately.

The reported accounts of the Fiesta at 123SR are very hard to reconcile. It seems possible to me that she drove there, met someone who'd parked there, drove off with him in her car, and was seen by BW in the FPR. The passenger then perhaps killed her, drove back in her car to where he had left his own, collected that vehicle and left hers there. This would allow all the 123SR sightings to be correct. There's no actual evidence for it unless you take the view that this man had SJL drive to Taggart's flat, and that he was seen in her car en route headed that way by BW. He then drives back to 123SR and collects his car. Maybe.
A well put together summary, the key point WestLondoner makes is that we are where we are today because back in 86 another case took priority (the cement works job).
As pointed out, by the time Suzy’s case was taken seriously the trail (if there ever was one) had started to go cold.
Missing out the recent released sex offenders let JC (if guilty) get away and continue his life of crime in Bristol.
If JC would have come under the microscope, so would Joseph Taggert and things might have turned out differently.
Jim Dickie highlighted the canal witness, he said that it was reported by the witness back in 86, however, he couldn’t find any record of it in the Brentford police records. I’m sure it there was a record JD would have made it public.
 
DV's logic is that she knew a bloke called Herring whose nickname was Kipper. Kipper had lived at Wardo Road - the address at the top of the page for that day in her diary - and had moved to Shorrolds, on an address in which road Sturgis had just been instructed. The first name that comes into her head is thus Kipper, and the first road, Shorrolds.

It has been said, not sure by what source, that there were other contacts by someone called Kipper with other local agents. This is interesting in that if true, it implies she did not make the name up. It still doesn't mean she was heading to Shorrolds that day; she could have written that diary entry then met him somewhere else entirely.

I still doubt that even Cannan would use his alleged prison nickname as an alias. It would be like Jack "The Hat" McVitie booking appointments as Mr Hat. It's not much of an alias that leads right back to you.

It seems unconvincing to me that SJL would choose a name that is not the real name of anyone in this country but obviously I do not know SJL and therefore would not know if she was a bit slow-witted and that something she deemed she had to do came up suddenly and so in a moment of haste she couldn't think of a name that would be more convincing to her bosses than Kipper, but personally I think that someone capable of doing a professional job would be able to come up with a more convincing name than Kipper even if pushed for time.
JMO / MOO

I would completely agree with you that only an idiot planning an abduction would make an appointment using a nickname of theirs and anyway I think that you mentioned before that Cannan was never known as Mr Kipper until called that by fellow prisoners after he was named as a suspect in the media.
 
It seems unconvincing to me that SJL would choose a name that is not the real name of anyone in this country but obviously I do not know SJL and therefore would not know if she was a bit slow-witted and that something she deemed she had to do came up suddenly and so in a moment of haste she couldn't think of a name that would be more convincing to her bosses than Kipper, but personally I think that someone capable of doing a professional job would be able to come up with a more convincing name than Kipper even if pushed for time.
JMO / MOO

I would completely agree with you that only an idiot planning an abduction would make an appointment using a nickname of theirs and anyway I think that you mentioned before that Cannan was never known as Mr Kipper until called that by fellow prisoners after he was named as a suspect in the media.
The whole name thing does look odd, SJL was apparently well known for using nicknames, so it’s just possible she did so then.
I think she’d be aware that if anyone checked they’d likely be suspicious. Especially, as all the other data collected in the cardex system was missing.
As you’ve rightly pointed out it could have been entered by someone else when she failed to return.
 
That’s a helpful response, DV outlined the same in his book, I can’t recall AS clarifying this in his book.
DV gave a reasonable explanation as to why SJL used this name and it makes sense. One of the Herring brothers lived at 55 Shorrolds Road and had recently moved from Wardo Ave.
DV also interviewed Wendy Jones, he made her out to be an unreliable witness. I understand why, it just didn’t fit with his narrative.
DV didn’t interview Barbara Whitfield, again I think he’d made his mind up and probably saw her as irrelevant.
That IMO is an error, BW is the only witness that actually knew SJL, and was part of the “Putney Set” as SJL’s mother called them.
She (again IMO) places SJL travelling along the Fulham Palace Road at 2.45pm and I feel she was right.
There are many explanations on the internet as to what happens after death, as you have pointed out the process is gross and effectively starts the minute death occurs.
The area around Gallows Bridge is (according to the Canal & River Trust) part of the river Brent, and is far deeper that a normal canal.
Depending on what material is used (in the suitcase) and any weight added it may not surface.
One thing is certain and that is we’re very unlikely to find SJL.
Having considered all that we do know I feel the former Met officer Jim D is right, but will never be able to prove it
I do not think her using the name Kipper is a stretch at all. She knew someone called skipper who lived in Shorrolds Road which had just come onto the market so it's not a great stretch for her to think "ok I need to leave the office to go to an appointment what can i do? Shorrolds is a week on the market she probably immediately by word association remembered her friend/ex boyfriend whatever and put that in. Member one thing at the top of the page is a crossed out entry for 6D Wyfold so if I was going to enter false details so i could nip out and be back before the big bosses came back the entry would need to be legit ie a property on their books and if I had done this i would simply cross it out when i got back. As she never came back this was not done. She could have said I received a phone call and it was on the hoof so I went to the property but the person wasn't interested end of. (no card filled out no records) As I said much of what DV did was good and I agree with his logical thinking about how that name was entered. I think Kipper was invented by SL simply to legitimately get out of the office. I believe it was 100% her creation and meant to be a smokescreen but something went wrong.
 
Hi Supersleuth and welcome to the thread BTW.

DV did a good job in showing how much of the police case was assumption influenced by the family. The critique we had of his thesis around here at the time was that while he's right to point out the oddities around the PoW, it's very hard to see how this adds up to a case against KH, or how SJL is still there. If she died at the PoW she would more likely be on the embankment. As you have noted, it requires the barman to have hushed up a death without his partner knowing. It is not even clear that the pub was empty. It might have been, but it seems from the timing of the stock take that the aim was to be open normally at lunchtime. DV glosses over this.

The case against Cannan has been set out by Lady Stoddart-West above, and hinges mainly on his apparent accidental confession, and on information laid against him in the 1990s by his former fellow lag Joseph Taggart, now dead. Most noticeably, Taggart had a flat ten minutes' walk from Shorrolds Road. Cannan arriving from there on foot would solve the logistical problems that would arise from any theory in which each drove there in their own car and the pair then drove away in one of those cars - i.e. that someone would have had to go back to move the other car. AFAIK there's no corroborating evidence for Taggart's account, and he was not able to indicate any sites for her body.

The canal thing I think is simply fantasy. We are asked to believe that in 1989, someone recalled the day, date and time he saw Cannan three years before, and Cannan was obligingly behaving shiftily - carrying a big heavy suitcase, running away, etc. I think someone just wanted a bit of attention.

The reason why the quality of the "evidence" against Cannan is so poor is IMO that the police failed to notice or collect the right evidence at the time. They can't very well admit this, so they have to make out that the evidence of his guilt only came in later. This is why they rely on things like claimed sightings of him in flower shops in 1986, or staring in the window of estate agencies in 1986, supposedly recalled 15 or 20 years later. If, for example, they had checked in July 1986 for SA offenders released recently from HMP Wormwood Scrubs, Brixton, or Wandsworth, he'd have been under suspicion immediately.

The reported accounts of the Fiesta at 123SR are very hard to reconcile. It seems possible to me that she drove there, met someone who'd parked there, drove off with him in her car, and was seen by BW in the FPR. The passenger then perhaps killed her, drove back in her car to where he had left his own, collected that vehicle and left hers there. This would allow all the 123SR sightings to be correct. There's no actual evidence for it unless you take the view that this man had SJL drive to Taggart's flat, and that he was seen in her car en route headed that way by BW. He then drives back to 123SR and collects his car. Maybe.
May I ask has anyone on here actually been to the exact spot where the car was parked and walked the Wendy Jones route to check out the timings according to what was reported in AS book etc? I spoke to a guy who once went to Dealey Plaza on holiday to Texas and he said the place is tiny! I had exactly the same thought when I went to Stevenage Road. The width is no more that 20-25 feet from kerb to kerb. Also the garage of the Mahons is almost opposite Wendy Jones kitchen window.

One thing I would say is this IF a white fiesta was parked where the police found it then it would have virtually impossible to miss it. The road is TINY and the garage it was parked across belonged to the husband of the woman Wendy Jones went to the bank with so the car being there was something memorable. For the record I 100% believe the white fiesta was there at 12.40pm why? because it would have been impossible to miss it and she came back a while later and said it was still there and did not move. When it comes down to it the reason why this case is so hard to navigate is because there are too many extra pieces that do not fit if all the sightings are placed on the table they overlap in a way that is impossible. So which ones are most likely to be false? I personally believe that the car was there "before" Wendy Jones saw it at 12.40pm. That of course means it may have been there a minute before she saw it or some hours that we do not know. I think it stayed there until the police found it at 10.01pm.

I do not believe SL ever went to Shorrolds Road

BW is a credible witness as she knew SL but she does come across as a bit flaky and DV does not even mention her, when I pressed him on that he said well if she did see her then WJ is wrong and if WJ is right BW is wrong (make of that what you will)

On balance its for me "most likely" that her car was in Stevenage road from before WJ saw it until 10.01pm and never moved.
 
A well put together summary, the key point WestLondoner makes is that we are where we are today because back in 86 another case took priority (the cement works job).
As pointed out, by the time Suzy’s case was taken seriously the trail (if there ever was one) had started to go cold.
Missing out the recent released sex offenders let JC (if guilty) get away and continue his life of crime in Bristol.
If JC would have come under the microscope, so would Joseph Taggert and things might have turned out differently.
Jim Dickie highlighted the canal witness, he said that it was reported by the witness back in 86, however, he couldn’t find any record of it in the Brentford police records. I’m sure it there was a record JD would have made it public.
For the record I have great trouble with a lot of what JD says, things like "I believe JC had access to a black BMW" so what where is the proof? The often quoted SL had met a businessman from Bristol, JC came from Birmingham and to my knowledge had NO connections whatsoever with Bristol until AFTER the SL case? Some good was done with the reinvestigation but too many assumptions and to be honest its not difficult to see why the CPS did not proceed as like much of what JD claims was so called evidence was circumstantial. JC had a reputation of blundering evidence and his victims bodies were found and he left clues. A complete vanishing and no body to me says whoever did this was a pro i.e no trace no clues no body. Sounds like a professional job to me not a temporary landlord or JC (IMO)
 
Maybe Peter Johnstone was wrong, afterall it's only his opinion, not proof.

If Suzy Lamplugh was merely making up an excuse to leave the office, then calling the supposed client's name Kipper seems a very strange choice as, as I understand it, there is no-one of that name in this country so why would she assume that her bosses would be convinced that this was a genuine appointment?
My guess is that the name Mr Kipper is some sort of codename for the killer or killers.

JMO / MOO
I think if I was a killer I would leave a more boring name that was unmemorable why leave a ridiculous name that would stand out so much?

She knew someone called herring but knew him as kipper or maybe skipper he lived in shorrolds and she knew that so by word association this is not (IMO) strange but logical and a natural train of thought. She "probably" thought nobody would ever know as she was planning to be back soon. Keith Perry the big boss popped in mid morning so if she had a pre arranged plan to leave and run an errand perhaps this popping in changed her plans and she had to think on the hoof of a quick but plausible cover? She probably wasn't scared of Guerdon but Perry actually hired her and could in theory have fired her so I'm pretty sure she was scared of him
 
Maybe DV was on to something with Wendy Jones? It would be interesting to know why he portrayed her as unreliable.

JMO / MOO
I read DV book in 2 days as soon as it came out and I am convinced he mocked Wendy Jones and made her look ridiculous because IF she saw the car when she said she did it completely blows his POW theory out of the water. He was evasive when i tried to discuss this aspect with him. I would say on reflection his research was superb he uncovered MANY great new facts and did help researchers find out lots of new things, BUT his theory has not been proved and I was told by someone who was there that the cellar has been searched. This person also pointed out several things that were errors and gave me info that made me think differently about what actually was true in that book.
 
With regards to the POW pub in Putney - the annexe in the cellar has never been searched by police. The police station is just found the corner. Occasionally serve officers food or they have a drink in the bar. But they've never ever been in the cellar annexe. It would deffo need a big professional team to search it fully. It's a very large & dangerous space with rats. Pest control only in there. No light. Brief cursory checks were done by someone from the police researching a book?
 
That’s a helpful response, DV outlined the same in his book, I can’t recall AS clarifying this in his book.
DV gave a reasonable explanation as to why SJL used this name and it makes sense. One of the Herring brothers lived at 55 Shorrolds Road and had recently moved from Wardo Ave.
DV also interviewed Wendy Jones, he made her out to be an unreliable witness. I understand why, it just didn’t fit with his narrative.
DV didn’t interview Barbara Whitfield, again I think he’d made his mind up and probably saw her as irrelevant.
That IMO is an error, BW is the only witness that actually knew SJL, and was part of the “Putney Set” as SJL’s mother called them.
She (again IMO) places SJL travelling along the Fulham Palace Road at 2.45pm and I feel she was right.
There are many explanations on the internet as to what happens after death, as you have pointed out the process is gross and effectively starts the minute death occurs.
The area around Gallows Bridge is (according to the Canal & River Trust) part of the river Brent, and is far deeper that a normal canal.
Depending on what material is used (in the suitcase) and any weight added it may not surface.
One thing is certain and that is we’re very unlikely to find SJL.
Having considered all that we do know I feel the former Met officer Jim D is right, but will never be able to prove it
Out of curiousity why do you think DV is wrong? Or.... which parts?
 
Out of curiousity why do you think DV is wrong? Or.... which parts?
I too read DV’s book immediately it came out, DV outlined exactly why SJL made the fake appointment and the logic used to come to this conclusion.
It’s the same logic outlined by Supersleuth above (welcome back by the way). You can’t argue with DV’s research and the logic he comes up with to explain how SJL came up with Mr Kipper.
For DV to be right about the PoW Wendy Jones must be wrong in seeing SJL’s car in Stevenage Road apparently before she left the Sturgis office.
He does his best in the book to make Wendy Jones out to be an unreliable witness.
Furthermore, he completely ignored the only witness that actually knew SJL Barbara Whitfield. I think BW did see SJL and this plus the 5.15pm sighting of SJL’s car in Stevenage Road form a good basis to work from.
If this is the case then SJL never went to the PoW and DV’s narrative falls apart.
Like Supersleuth I asked DV if he was concerned about any evidence in the cellar of the PoW be contaminated, his reply was direct and he simply said no.
That’s because SHL isn’t in the cellar of the PoW and DV knows this, to be fair to DV, he never actually said SJL was in the Cellar.
 
It's clearly true that if WJ saw SJL's car at 12.40, then her account both supports but also undermines parts of DV's thinking.

She supports his assertion that SJL never went to Shorrolds. She can't have been seen outside #37 at 12.50 if she had driven to 123SR by 12.40. She undermines DV's view that SJL drove to the PoW, however. So on balance, he needs to eliminate WJ's account.

He also needs to eliminate BW's account for the same reason. If DV is right about the PoW, SJL was probably already dead by 2.45 and cannot have been seen by BW.

Barring some sort of Don't Look Now timeslip, BW is for me the only piece of information that independently corroborates the Taggart story. If it is true that Cannan was frequently round at Taggart's flat in Star Road, and if Taggart had a garage there, and if that was where Cannan stashed his own car (so as not to have to retrieve later from outside a now 'hot' 37SR or 123SR), and if he met SJL at 123SR and went round looking at other properties or to Star Road, they would indeed go up the FPR.

When the current staff of the pub said the police had searched under the floor are we at cross purposes? Did they mean DV had looked under the floor?
 
May I ask has anyone on here actually been to the exact spot where the car was parked and walked the Wendy Jones route to check out the timings according to what was reported in AS book etc?
I've not specifically done that, but I have been to 123SR and then walked to Star Road and from there to 37 Shorrolds. The aim was to see if the timings involved in doing this support the idea of Cannan having access to a garage in or off Star Road and getting about on foot.

As mentioned above, consider how complicated things get Mr Kipper and SJL both arrive at 37SR in their own car. SJL's was found elsewhere so she clearly drove away in her car, so how does the passenger get back to Shorrolds to recover his own car? He can't exactly leave it there and fetch it at leisure later, because the place is about to become a crime scene. Meanwhile she's supposedly been seen in a BMW (so where was her car then?), in her own car on the FPR (so where was his car then?), and in addition to the supposed BMW Cannan also had use of a red Sierra, which was where exactly?

It is about a 20-minute walk at a normal male's pace from 123SR to Star Road, and about 7 or 8 minutes I guess from there to Shorrolds. These distances can be walked, and most of that between 123SR and Star Road is by footpath through quiet parks and council estates - so not many witnesses.

Another point against any SJL visit to 37SR is the absence of any sign of her having gone inside. I can't remember where I read this but when they forensicated it they found no SJL prints. So how did HR hear a door slam and see people coming out if she never went in?
 
With regards to the POW pub in Putney - the annexe in the cellar has never been searched by police. The police station is just found the corner. Occasionally serve officers food or they have a drink in the bar. But they've never ever been in the cellar annexe. It would deffo need a big professional team to search it fully. It's a very large & dangerous space with rats. Pest control only in there. No light. Brief cursory checks were done by someone from the police researching a book?
Hi RB and welcome to the thread.

It sounds like you have some acquaintance with the pub - are you suggesting that when it was said recently that police had searched under the pub floor, that this might in fact have been a reference to DV himself having looked under the pub floor when researching his book?!
 
Out of curiousity why do you think DV is wrong? Or.... which parts?
This wasn't put to me and I can't speak for others obviously but FWIW there are for me some good and weak points about DV's case.

Good points: first, he cogently challenges the 37SR narrative. HR never ID'ed SJL, but said he heard a door slam as she left the house and saw her bundled into a vehicle. He later retracted the last part, the first can't be true because fingerprints say she never went inside and the keys never went missing, so that leaves nothing of HR's statement.

In addition, though this is not a point DV makes, I don't know how you can assume anyone seen near 37SR was SJL unless you know how routinely busy the street was. If it were Piccadilly Circus there'd be loads of passers-by and you'd never assume anyone seen was SJL. So how busy was Shorrolds? If you saw a woman there, did that have to be SJL because nobody ever saw women in that street?

Next, DV deconstructs what was afoot in the office that day, and where she might have been going, and follows that train of thought. The police in contrast instantly bought the Mr Kipper line, initially focused entirely on finding out who that was, then latterly pivoted to 'proving' it was Cannan.

DV shows clearly how disastrous the family's involvement was, with DL convening her own press conferences in which she distributed misleading and out of date photographs of SJL; editing the information given to the police about their last conversations with her; and Quakerishly being more concerned with managing her posthumous reputation than finding her killer. They were apparently aghast that she slept with blokes and wanted this hushed up. Well FFS look at her, and imagine the offers she got - at what point did she get one she couldn't bring herself to refuse? Probably not far past about 19 if I had to guess.

DV's audit of how JC came to be in the case is absolutely merciless.

The weak points: having established that SJL could have gone to the PoW, and that it contains a place you could hide a body, DV doesn't show that the pub was definitely empty bar the temp landlord, nor that there was any reason he'd attack SJL, nor why he'd do so literally within an hour of having the pub handed over. It's like there's a big missing piece of logic or fact (which for all I know is true, because e.g. legal concerns).

He indicates that in 1984 the pub floor had been raised - creating a space underneath - and tiled. In 2007, "...during a purely cosmetic makeover, the stage area had been lowered from above, and the floor put back to its original height, before being tiled over again." - I struggle to see this. A floor that you can lower must be suspended, i.e. it would sit on something such as crosswise joists. To "lower" it you'd surely have to take it up, cut and refix those joists, then re-lay the floor. I don't see how you do all this without anyone noticing the famous dead estate agent under the floor.

His interview technique does not appear up to much for trained LE - the majority of his witnesses get in a huff.

He tends to omit without explanation things that undermine his PoW theory. For me, if your theory doesn't accommodate the BW sighting, it's in trouble.

The weaknesses don't completely trash his argument, which is interesting. It is possible SJL went to the PoW, but it does not seem possible she never left and is still there.

On balance, DV has persuaded me that she went into a house, flat or other building, accompanied but unobserved, and was there presumably first SA'd and then killed, also unobserved. If the building allowed for her to be loaded into a car unobserved and driven away, then that's what happened. If not, you can do what DV says of the pub, which is take up the ground floor boards to expose dirt and hide a body in the foundations before putting the floor back. In neither event will she ever be found until the building in question is demolished or a very well-informed snitch comes forward.
 
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This wasn't put to me and I can't speak for others obviously but FWIW there are for me some good and weak points about DV's case.

Good points: first, he cogently challenges the 37SR narrative. HR never ID'ed SJL, but said he heard a door slam as she left the house and saw her bundled into a vehicle. He later retracted the last part, the first can't be true because fingerprints say she never went inside and the keys never went missing, so that leaves nothing of HR's statement.

In addition, though this is not a point DV makes, I don't know how you can assume anyone seen near 37SR was SJL unless you know how routinely busy the street was. If it were Piccadilly Circus there'd be loads of passers-by and you'd never assume anyone seen was SJL. So how busy was Shorrolds?

Next, DV deconstructs what was afoot in the office that day, and where she might have been going, and follows that train of thought. The police in contrast instantly bought the Mr Kipper line, initially focused entirely on finding out who that was, then latterly pivoted to 'proving' it was Cannan.

DV shows clearly how disastrous the family's involvement was, with DL convening her own press conferences in which she distributed misleading and out of date photographs of SJL; editing the information given to the police about their last conversations with her; and Quakerishly being more preoccupied with whitewashing her lifestyle than finding her killer. They were apparently aghast that she slept with blokes. Well FFS look at her, and imagine the offers she got - at what point did she get one she couldn't bring herself to refuse? Probably not far past about 19 if I had to guess.

DV's audit of how JC came to be in the case is absolutely merciless.

The weak points: having established that SJL could have gone to the PoW, and that it contains a place you could hide a body, DV doesn't show that the pub was definitely empty bar the temp landlord, nor that there was any reason he'd attack SJL, nor why he'd do so literally within an hour of having the pub handed over. It's like there's a big missing piece of logic or fact (which for all I know is true, because e.g. legal concerns).

He indicates that in 1984 the pub floor had been raised - creating a space underneath - and tiled. In 2007, "...during a purely cosmetic makeover, the stage area had been lowered from above, and the floor put back to its original height, before being tiled over again." - I struggle to see this. A floor that you can lower must be suspended, i.e. it would sit on something such as crosswise joists. To "lower" it you'd surely have to take it up, cut and refix those joists, then re-lay the floor. I don't see how you do all this without anyone noticing the famous dead estate agent under the floor.

His interview technique does not appear up to much for trained LE - the majority of his witnesses get in a huff.

He tends to omit without explanation things that undermine his PoW theory. For me, if your theory doesn't accommodate the BW sighting, it's in trouble.

The weaknesses don't completely trash his argument, which is interesting. It is possible SJL went to the PoW, but it does not seem possible she never left and is still there.

On balance, DV has persuaded me that she went into a house, flat or other building, accompanied but unobserved, and was there presumably first SA'd and then killed, also unobserved. If the building allowed for her to be loaded into a car unobserved and driven away, then that's what happened. If not, you can do what DV says of the pub, which is take up the ground floor boards to expose dirt and hide a body in the foundations before putting the floor back. In neither event will she ever be found until the building in question is demolished or a very well-informed snitch comes forward.
Excellent as usual WestLondoner, one point you’ve made many time here is the true value of any evidence gained many years after the event.
You rightly point out that it just can’t be relied on. Ask anyone what they were doing On a particular day nearly 40 years ago and they’d struggle to tell you.
IMO the most accurate source (which we do have access to) would be the original police interview notes. Given Andrew Stephen had what is believed to be unprecedented access, his book “The Suzy Lamplugh Story” should be a close second.
To be fair to DV he never said SJL was under the floor at the PoW. He hinted that she might have been ar some point.
If she did end her days in the PoW cellar she’s not likely to be there now.
If wouldn’t have been difficult for the perpetrator to move her body without being seen, however, it’s highly unlikely his partner of the time wouldn’t have been aware of this.
 

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