UK UK - Suzy Lamplugh, 25, Fulham, 28 Jul 1986 #6

[Terryb808]

I dismiss him because he made loads of mistakes in his previous crimes, there was zero trace of him with SL, no forensics no clues nothing. It was in a part of London he did not know how so did he dispose of her body which has never been found? Every time I hear his name in this case I just roll my eyes. Its just speculation and fluff there is NO evidence whatsoever.

It's possible he did it of course he certainly fits the profile but I am 100% certain he had nothing to do with it.

I think the only reason he has talked about is so he could use it for leverage when applying for his parole saying he was tried in the media and persecuted by the police which I think has backfired on him

As you’ve said earlier the true facts are that SJL went to work Monday 28th July 1986, went out at between 12.30 / 12.40pm, and her car was found at 10.03pm Monday evening.
There’s absolutely no evidence at all, forensic or otherwise linking anyone to SJL’s disappearance.
On this basis no one can be ruled out. That includes JC & DV’s temp landlord of the PoW.

 

[Supersleuth22]

As you’ve said earlier the true facts are that SJL went to work Monday 28th July 1986, went out at between 12.30 / 12.40pm, and her car was found at 10.03pm Monday evening.
There’s absolutely no evidence at all, forensic or otherwise linking anyone to SJL’s disappearance.
On this basis no one can be ruled out. That includes JC & DV’s temp landlord of the PoW.

I do not think either of these people were responsible but as you say they cannot be ruled out either.
If SL's car turned up at Stevenage Road late afternoon and had not been seen at other times in Stevenage Road or by BW I would say DV's theory holds up but she cannot have gone to the POW and for the other sightings be in play. The problem is people count everything still in play so there are too many clues, too many suspects, too many theories. to see the wood from the trees we need to eliminate scenarios and see what stands up. To me the chances of JC having committed this crime is about as likely as bambi shooting JFK but hey that's my opinion.

JC has spun lies and therefore everything he says must be taken with a pinch of salt so ironically if he is telling the truth about SL nobody believes him anyway.

If anyone here has seen the film JFK there is a scene where the Johnny Carson character asks Jim Garrison if he believes there is anyone who hasn't shot JFK and it feels a bit like that here. A tv programme had a vote as to who Jack the ripper was and the highest vote was for queen Victoria's grandson even though he had a solid alibi for at least 3 of the murder dates because he was in Scotland maybe we should take a vote and see which theory is most favoured. I bet JC comes out on top just because he "looks" guilty.

 

[Terryb808]

I do not think either of these people were responsible but as you say they cannot be ruled out either.
If SL's car turned up at Stevenage Road late afternoon and had not been seen at other times in Stevenage Road or by BW I would say DV's theory holds up but she cannot have gone to the POW and for the other sightings be in play. The problem is people count everything still in play so there are too many clues, too many suspects, too many theories. to see the wood from the trees we need to eliminate scenarios and see what stands up. To me the chances of JC having committed this crime is about as likely as bambi shooting JFK but hey that's my opinion.

JC has spun lies and therefore everything he says must be taken with a pinch of salt so ironically if he is telling the truth about SL nobody believes him anyway.

If anyone here has seen the film JFK there is a scene where the Johnny Carson character asks Jim Garrison if he believes there is anyone who hasn't shot JFK and it feels a bit like that here. A tv programme had a vote as to who Jack the ripper was and the highest vote was for queen Victoria's grandson even though he had a solid alibi for at least 3 of the murder dates because he was in Scotland maybe we should take a vote and see which theory is most favoured. I bet JC comes out on top just because he "looks" guilty.

Don’t doubt what you’re saying, however, what evidence besides an opinion do you have that neither JC or DV’s temp landlord are actually innocent.

The Crimewatch broadcast features witnesses that came forward 14 years after SJL disappeared, with all the media coverage where have they been all this time and how accurate is their evidence?

DV supports the JC is innocent because if he’s guilty, then his PoW theory is dead. FWIW he goes to great lengths to show Wendy Jones unreliable for the same reason.

Again FWIW Detective Mike Barley was of the opinion (back in 86) that SJL went straight to Stevenage Road from the Sturgis office and was abducted in another car. This means Shorrolds Road witnesses are all wrong.

As I’ve said, he’s a good detective and on the case at the time. While it’s his opinion, he must have had good reason as it went against his superiors at the time.

 

[Supersleuth22]

Don’t doubt what you’re saying, however, what evidence besides an opinion do you have that neither JC or DV’s temp landlord are actually innocent.

The Crimewatch broadcast features witnesses that came forward 14 years after SJL disappeared, with all the media coverage where have they been all this time and how accurate is their evidence?

DV supports the JC is innocent because if he’s guilty, then his PoW theory is dead. FWIW he goes to great lengths to show Wendy Jones unreliable for the same reason.

Again FWIW Detective Mike Barley was of the opinion (back in 86) that SJL went straight to Stevenage Road from the Sturgis office and was abducted in another car. This means Shorrolds Road witnesses are all wrong.

As I’ve said, he’s a good detective and on the case at the time. While it’s his opinion, he must have had good reason as it went against his superiors at the time.

By that logic anyone could have done it? Both are extremely unlikely suspects. KH did not know her and IF she went to the POW and was alone how and why would KH have killed a relative stranger? To say JC could have got a black BMW is speculative to say the least. In theory anything like this is possible if he did get hold of one someone would have dobbed him in. Mike Barley is a good detective but they made lots of mistakes too. A simple check of the phone records would have shown quite clearly who called who and that would have shown a timeline. They placed little or no importance on the lost possessions and that was a big mistake. It would not have taken Sherlock Holmes to work out that she lost her stuff on Sunday not Friday but they got that wrong too.

 

[Supersleuth22]

Don’t doubt what you’re saying, however, what evidence besides an opinion do you have that neither JC or DV’s temp landlord are actually innocent.

The Crimewatch broadcast features witnesses that came forward 14 years after SJL disappeared, with all the media coverage where have they been all this time and how accurate is their evidence?

DV supports the JC is innocent because if he’s guilty, then his PoW theory is dead. FWIW he goes to great lengths to show Wendy Jones unreliable for the same reason.

Again FWIW Detective Mike Barley was of the opinion (back in 86) that SJL went straight to Stevenage Road from the Sturgis office and was abducted in another car. This means Shorrolds Road witnesses are all wrong.

As I’ve said, he’s a good detective and on the case at the time. While it’s his opinion, he must have had good reason as it went against his superiors at the time.

DV started by investigating JC and found no evidence that he was involved. he did not start out with him as an unlikely suspect as he had not investigated his book yet. Later on obviously he would not want JC as a suspect because it was not in line with his theory but he started assuming JC was guilty and then surmised he was not involved

 

[Knitty]

Thread is closed for cleanup.

 

[Knitty]

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[sl77]

I've just re-listened to DV's interview. He describes the people he interviewed from the PoW as just really strange.

Perhaps this is why he has his idea what happened? He actually met these people (we haven't)

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I decided to take a look at this case because of some comments about it on the Jill Dando thread.

Unlike with other cases, I really don't have a strong opinion about what happened to Suzy. She left her workplace around lunchtime, her car was found abandoned later in the evening, but beyond that everything seems to be very much up in the air. A true mystery.

Possible sightings of Suzy seem, in some instances, to contradict each other. So it's very difficult to know if they really were sightings of Suzy or not. It appears that the "Mr. Kipper" appointment in Suzy's diary was either a man using a fake name, or Suzy making a fake entry as an excuse for taking a longer lunch break. So it's hard to know if that diary entry is truly helpful. Suzy may have gone to a house viewing. She may have gone to a pub to collect her misplaced belongings. Or she could have gone somewhere else entirely.

JC is an unpleasant character, and he's a viable suspect, but I'm not really seeing anything that I think directly points to him to the exclusion of anyone else. My gut says Suzy was abducted and killed by someone she knew, or at the very least was expecting to meet. But beyond that I have no idea.

I fear a lot of evidence was probably missed/lost in 1986, and that without someone coming forward or a new piece of evidence being found, Suzy's disappearance will remain a mystery. I want to be wrong.

 

[Terryb808]

I decided to take a look at this case because of some comments about it on the Jill Dando thread.

Unlike with other cases, I really don't have a strong opinion about what happened to Suzy. She left her workplace around lunchtime, her car was found abandoned later in the evening, but beyond that everything seems to be very much up in the air. A true mystery.

Possible sightings of Suzy seem, in some instances, to contradict each other. So it's very difficult to know if they really were sightings of Suzy or not. It appears that the "Mr. Kipper" appointment in Suzy's diary was either a man using a fake name, or Suzy making a fake entry as an excuse for taking a longer lunch break. So it's hard to know if that diary entry is truly helpful. Suzy may have gone to a house viewing. She may have gone to a pub to collect her misplaced belongings. Or she could have gone somewhere else entirely.

JC is an unpleasant character, and he's a viable suspect, but I'm not really seeing anything that I think directly points to him to the exclusion of anyone else. My gut says Suzy was abducted and killed by someone she knew, or at the very least was expecting to meet. But beyond that I have no idea.

I fear a lot of evidence was probably missed/lost in 1986, and that without someone coming forward or a new piece of evidence being found, Suzy's disappearance will remain a mystery. I want to be wrong.

I think you have your summary spot on, we’re approaching 40 years and things haven’t changed.
There’s basically (as you say) no evidence at all that can be relied on apart from the 3 things you point out.
In DV’s case you can’t assume guilt because the people from the PoW you interviewed seem strange.

 

[Crusader21]

Here are two lesser known pieces perhaps worthy of discussion from the new posters ...

In a 1987 episode of Crimewatch featuring an update on the case, (not the original 1986 show nor the 2000 episode), a new reconstruction featured evidence from a guy driving a van who had to slam the brakes to avoid a white car driving erratically. This witness piece is also featured in the 'Fred West Book'. A book all accounts is fantasy, but includes more on the van driver's siting ...

Searching for Suzy

This is a chronology of a private investigation into the disappearance of Suzy Lamplugh, the London Estate Agent. It began on the 28th July 1999 and lasted for four years. The research revealed a direct link between Suzy and John West - the younger brother of Fred West. At first the research was...

books.google.co.uk

The second piece, is this lady recounting an unwelcome attention from a stalker with those piercing eyes ...

Mum-of-three reveals 'Suzy Lamplugh prime suspect Mr Kipper' says he targeted her three days before estate agent disappeared

A MUM-of-three last night told how she escaped the clutches of killer John Cannan just three days before estate agent Suzy Lamplugh vanished. Liz Greenfield was working as a receptionist when a man…

www.thesun.co.uk

 

[Eastend Eagle]

I decided to take a look at this case because of some comments about it on the Jill Dando thread.

Unlike with other cases, I really don't have a strong opinion about what happened to Suzy. She left her workplace around lunchtime, her car was found abandoned later in the evening, but beyond that everything seems to be very much up in the air. A true mystery.

Possible sightings of Suzy seem, in some instances, to contradict each other. So it's very difficult to know if they really were sightings of Suzy or not. It appears that the "Mr. Kipper" appointment in Suzy's diary was either a man using a fake name, or Suzy making a fake entry as an excuse for taking a longer lunch break. So it's hard to know if that diary entry is truly helpful. Suzy may have gone to a house viewing. She may have gone to a pub to collect her misplaced belongings. Or she could have gone somewhere else entirely.

JC is an unpleasant character, and he's a viable suspect, but I'm not really seeing anything that I think directly points to him to the exclusion of anyone else. My gut says Suzy was abducted and killed by someone she knew, or at the very least was expecting to meet. But beyond that I have no idea.

I fear a lot of evidence was probably missed/lost in 1986, and that without someone coming forward or a new piece of evidence being found, Suzy's disappearance will remain a mystery. I want to be wrong.

...or that the diary entry was done by someone else...

 

[WestLondoner]

I still think the main purpose of the diary entry was to cover MG's back for him. An estate agent had no need to explain why she wasn't at her desk - she's supposed to leave it to show the billy bunters round houses. So if MG noticed she wasn't at her desk, he'd think nothing of it unless she were away too long, which is exactly what happened.

If, however, the head honcho wanders in from his lunch appointment and says to MG Blimey Gurdon, where the hell is everyone? Do we actually still sell houses here or what?, MG can say Well Hindle's holding the fort, whatisname's on holiday and let's see where Lamplugh is..and looking at her diary he's able to say OK, Lamplugh's showing 37 Shorrolds. While perhaps thinking Kipper? WTF is "Kipper"?

 

[Eastend Eagle]

I still think the main purpose of the diary entry was to cover MG's back for him. An estate agent had no need to explain why she wasn't at her desk - she's supposed to leave it to show the billy bunters round houses. So if MG noticed she wasn't at her desk, he'd think nothing of it unless she were away too long, which is exactly what happened.

If, however, the head honcho wanders in from his lunch appointment and says to MG Blimey Gurdon, where the hell is everyone? Do we actually still sell houses here or what?, MG can say Well Hindle's holding the fort, whatisname's on holiday and let's see where Lamplugh is..and looking at her diary he's able to say OK, Lamplugh's showing 37 Shorrolds. While perhaps thinking Kipper? WTF is "Kipper"?

So SL was helping out MG?

Is it known what became of the temporary secretary after SL's disappearance?

 

[Terryb808]

I still think the main purpose of the diary entry was to cover MG's back for him. An estate agent had no need to explain why she wasn't at her desk - she's supposed to leave it to show the billy bunters round houses. So if MG noticed she wasn't at her desk, he'd think nothing of it unless she were away too long, which is exactly what happened.

If, however, the head honcho wanders in from his lunch appointment and says to MG Blimey Gurdon, where the hell is everyone? Do we actually still sell houses here or what?, MG can say Well Hindle's holding the fort, whatisname's on holiday and let's see where Lamplugh is..and looking at her diary he's able to say OK, Lamplugh's showing 37 Shorrolds. While perhaps thinking Kipper? WTF is "Kipper"?

Spot on, and maybe he’d know instantly that Kipper was a red herring and she’d be on a long lunch break.

 

[WestLondoner]

The second piece, is this lady recounting an unwelcome attention from a stalker with those piercing eyes ...

Mum-of-three reveals 'Suzy Lamplugh prime suspect Mr Kipper' says he targeted her three days before estate agent disappeared

A MUM-of-three last night told how she escaped the clutches of killer John Cannan just three days before estate agent Suzy Lamplugh vanished. Liz Greenfield was working as a receptionist when a man…

www.thesun.co.uk

I'm not sure what intelligence value this account has even if notice had been taken of it at the time. At best, it says some weirdo is going round SW12 pestering women. Well, the plod already knew that. Some weirdo had apparently just abducted SJL. It was also a second-hand report because it was the dad, not the girl, who reported it.

AS recounts that the investigating officers received a lot of quite similar reports from women denouncing their husband as probably being Mr Kipper. These all had to be looked into, and on doing so, the police found that their husbands didn't live in the area, didn't look like Mr Kipper and had alibis. So all these reports were simply malicious. AS notes that the police concluded a lot of wives just really, really disliked their husbands.

Presumably this sighting failed to be noticed at the time because as it provides no information they didn't already have and didn't identify who this bloke might be, it was of no value. It became interesting years later when the police needed to marshal every bit of hearsay and innuendo they could find to put Cannan in the frame, having failed to find any actual evidence years before.

The list of ten reasons why it was Cannan the Mail gives is interesting because while it's a typical list, they're all spurious.

1. Mr Kipper. Cannan was nicknamed “Kipper” by others at a bail hostel where he lived at the time — due to his fondness for the fish and a habit of having a kip. Rubbish, everyone knows the name "kipper" is "kidnapper" with the DNA removed, and that Cannan was called Kipper because he wore kipper ties. This is the kind of quality evidence by which cases are made.
2. Photofit. He bore a strong resemblance to the image of Suzy’s abductor compiled from witnesses. Almost everyone, including Shakin' Stevens and Prince Andrew, bears a slight resemblance to one of the photofits. But there were two and they're different.
3. False alibi. Cannan claimed he was staying with his mum in Sutton Coldfield and had chatted up a local sales assistant the day that Suzy vanished. The woman confirmed Cannan approached her, but doubts later emerged over whether it was on the same day. Nobody checked these alibis for 14 years so there's no evidence they're false.
4. Brief romance. In 2001, cops uncovered evidence suggesting that Cannan was the “mystery man” Suzy had a brief relationship with. No they didn't. The CPS said the police had failed to show they'd ever met.
5. Bristol businessman. Suzy said her boyfriend was a Bristol businessman — something Cannan pretended to be with other women. The Bristol businessman was married and aged 37 in 1982, when Cannan was in jail. He didn't claim to be from Bristol until after he moved there in 1987.
6. Stalking. A witness said they saw Cannan staring into Sturgis estate agents, where Suzy worked, shortly before her disappearance. A witness claimed this 14 years later - zero credibility
7. Gifts. Cannan was known for showering women with flowers and champagne. An eyewitness saw a couple matching Suzy and Cannan’s descriptions laying in a local park with a bottle of bubbly beside them on the day she vanished. A witness claimed this 14 years later - zero credibility
8. Taxi driver. A cabbie identified Cannan as a man who asked for a lift that lunchtime, while clutching champagne and estate agent house papers. A witness claimed this 14 years later - zero credibility
9. The BMW. Detectives suspect Suzy’s killer parked a BMW near the second home in Fulham where she was taking “Mr Kipper” for a viewing in her office Ford Fiesta. No evidence of any BMW or second viewing
10. Joking confession. Cannan joked to a former girlfriend, Gilly Paige, that he was Mr Kipper. She retracted this claim. He never said it.

 

[WestLondoner]

So SL was helping out MG?

I think so. It was IMO to ensure that if anyone asked MG what his staff were actually doing, he'd be able to answer.

 

[Interested_But_Confused]

I still think the main purpose of the diary entry was to cover MG's back for him. An estate agent had no need to explain why she wasn't at her desk - she's supposed to leave it to show the billy bunters round houses. So if MG noticed she wasn't at her desk, he'd think nothing of it unless she were away too long, which is exactly what happened.

If, however, the head honcho wanders in from his lunch appointment and says to MG Blimey Gurdon, where the hell is everyone? Do we actually still sell houses here or what?, MG can say Well Hindle's holding the fort, whatisname's on holiday and let's see where Lamplugh is..and looking at her diary he's able to say OK, Lamplugh's showing 37 Shorrolds. While perhaps thinking Kipper? WTF is "Kipper"?

I could definitely see that. If you weren't supposed to leave the office during work hours without a reason, something like that would cover everyone's butt in the event that "head honcho" walked in and wanted to know where everyone was.

The police thought it was Suzy's handwriting, correct?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The name Kipper could hint at a targeted attack deliberately undertaken for vengeance - ie 'done up like a Kipper' or 'stitched up like a Kipper', someone who had such a personal hatred and need for overt and public revenge executed a demonic plan with no care of the consequences.

Maybe even assumed they'd get caught and didn't care such was their rage or someone without capacity to link action and consequence and disregarded the possibility of being caught?

Maybe someone who felt SJL had shafted them or double crossed them one time too many in property deals or betrayals - not saying she did any of that, just a suggestion of motive. JMO MOO

Also, re the road that IIRC was being dug up near where her car was located, did anyone actually check she wasn't in there?

 

[Eastend Eagle]

The name Kipper could hint at a targeted attack deliberately undertaken for vengeance - ie 'done up like a Kipper' or 'stitched up like a Kipper', someone who had such a personal hatred and need for overt and public revenge executed a demonic plan with no care of the consequences.

Maybe even assumed they'd get caught and didn't care such was their rage or someone without capacity to link action and consequence and disregarded the possibility of being caught?

Maybe someone who felt SJL had shafted them or double crossed them one time too many in property deals or betrayals - not saying she did any of that, just a suggestion of motive. JMO MOO

Also, re the road that IIRC was being dug up near where her car was located, did anyone actually check she wasn't in there?

I'm still interested in the temporary secretary, their background and what became of them after SL's disappearance, if anyone knows?