Was a stun gun used in the crime or not

[aRnd2it]

No two stun gun injuries look alike. The face, the back, and the lower leg present three entirely different contoured and pliable surfaces.

BlueCrab,
You don't have a matching mark on the face. furthermore you claim it matches what was on Boggs face but you failed to mention it DIDN'T match what was on Boggs face until his body rotted in the ground for almost a year.

The marks on her back are too close together to have been made by a Taser, even Lou Smit admitted on the LKL show that he's no longer sure it was a Taser. Yet no other stun gun has electrodes that come close to that pattern, which is why Smit is still looking for his match.

The marks on her leg are clearly identified at "scratches", not burn marks. Who would stun a person on their leg anyway! The electrical discharge would cause their leg to jerk away by itself. Steve Tuttle of the Taser Corp. had a very hard time holding his forearm against a discharging Taser.

And most importantly, a stun gun doesn't even fit the crime. It doesn't render a person unconcous, and it makes them (especially a child) scream out loud. This theory is so STUPID it could only be more of a joke if someone was claiming that JonBenet was poked by large hypodermic needles and didn't make a sound to alert her parents.

Take Beckners word for it, they can prove no stun gun was used.

 

[Camper]

Did Couric and the other LE people call Smit old ?, I donut think so. Delusional is a condition, age is a natural fact, and anyone of any age can be delusional.

I think you owe olde folks an apology, since one day you too will be old, but most likely not delusional, or we would all hope that you would not.

Perhaps there was a long handled tool of some sort that had two prongs on it. Tongs of a sort, or. Sharp eyes in the basement at the moment of discovery could have perhaps found such an item.

The jewelry/ring etc was discussed at great length here about 5 years ago, as maybe having made the marks.

IF JonBenet screamed and fell to the floor, a ?stun gun? could have been used when she was lying on the floor with back side up AFTER having fallen to the floor.



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[sissi]

Smit was called in on this case because he was a highly respected homicide detective, considered the best Colorado had to offer. Clearly those that call him delusional are those that want to counter his knowledge and expertise in his profession because they don't agree with his findings. It's hitting below the belt and shows the character of the attacker. IMO

 

[Seeker]

aRnd2it: Beckner says of Smit, "In order to believe his theories you have to ignore a lot of evidence." I wouldn't exactly call that high praise from an ex-employer...

I thought Smit worked for the DA's office....not the BPD.
Is there some reference for Smit only being on the job for 72 hours before deciding the Ramsey's were innocent? I must have missed it, or I've forgotten. OH and the 20,000 pages too please! Seriously and thanks.

The only way to prove or disprove that a stun gun was used is to exhume the body. It's not going to happen. If the state of GA wanted to exhume her there is nothing that the Ramsey's could do to stop it.

BC: two small scratch-like abrasions which are dried and rust colored.

Rust colored abrasions (blood looks rust colored when it dries) are not the same thing as burns...I believe burned skin turns black, scrapes that break/scratch the skin turn rusty looking. (I always thought they could have been insect bites that JB scratched until they bled....mosquito bites, or flea bites perhaps?)

aRnd2it is correct, the marks are not consistant in their distances either, so that rules out a stun gun IMO.

Can someone tell me just why some perp would need to stun her more than once for a prolonged period of time, time enough to burn the skin (which was not burned according to the autopsy report) in the first place? If he's got a stun gun why not just stun her before he leaves instead of killing her? An unknown intruder wouldn't need to kill her to keep her from identifying him IMO...

 

[Seeker]

Smit was called in on this case because he was a highly respected homicide detective, considered the best Colorado had to offer. Clearly those that call him delusional are those that want to counter his knowledge and expertise in his profession because they don't agree with his findings. It's hitting below the belt and shows the character of the attacker. IMO

I agree sissi, if they would have just disagreed that would be one thing, but to try and denigrate the guy is another.

I don't agree with some of his findings and would say we just see things differently.

 

[aRnd2it]

I think you owe olde folks an apology, since one day you too will be old

I have a better idea Camper. When I get old, you can feel free to make fun of me...if you're still alive and remember what your name and password is. :HappyBday:

 

[aRnd2it]

considered the best Colorado had to offer.
Clearly those that call him delusional are those that want to counter his knowledge and expertise in his profession because they don't agree with his findings.

He was NOT the best Colorado had to offer--he was available.

Those who worked with him found him unprofessional, unable to follow the evidence, and delusional to a point of making up his own evidence.

You manage to forget that when he left the investigation he proved he was nothing but a common criminal by STEALING evidence.

 

[Camper]

Thank you for the left handed apology ? 2it. My mom lived to 94 and was sharp as a tack to the end. You can look forward to 22+ more years of my giving you grief online, hee hee.

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Wonder if Columbo could have done a better job?

What the case really needed was someone, anyone really in BPD/FBI, that had their brain cells working.

1. No signs of forced entry.

2. Alarm turned off ?.

3. JR and PR not separated ASAP and interviewed.

4. Friends should have been shuttled to the BPD, (gotten out of the house ASAP) and quizzed on just what was said on the phone when ?PR? called them that morning.

4a. Everyone in the house should have been taken to BPD, and house determined to be a crime scene and roped off ASAP.

5. House shoulda been searched with a scent dog ASAP.

6. FBI should not have been turned away at the door (said look at the parents & left/sent away.

7. What a perfect day to commit a murder, Christmas eve/day BPD asleep dreaming of sugar plum fairy's.

FBI turned away at the door AT THE TIME ALL THE BPD HAD WAS A RANSOM NOTE - Double duh with dust on it!!!!
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THE BURNING QUESTION REMAINS:
SOOOOOOO, GA COULDorder exhumation. Perhaps some of the fibers from THAT BRAND NEW SCARF (that JR put around JonBenets neck in the casket WOULD MATCH SOME OF THE UNIDENTIFIED FIBRES FOUND AT THE SCENE. - Hmmm to that thought.

HOW would another autopsy move this dormant/dead case forward???

========================What would SMIT do, IF IF IF an autopsy proved stun gun usage??? He already did his own little pig test and was CONVINCED about stun gun usage, so NOW WHAT, nothing happened after the pig test.

What would COLUMBO do?



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[angelnsb]

HiDocWatson.

The marks on her ankle, I believe, are the only marks that I have not accounted for in my theory. I have not seen photos of these particular marks (has anyone?), so I cannot say if they are the same types of marks found in the other two locations.

I do know that JBR had some reddish-looking marks on the lower parts of her legs in some recent photos. Kids get leg-marks all the time.

If they are the same marks as those on her face and back, then perhaps someone grabbed the child by the ankle and pulled her out of wherever she was discovered?.? I am not sure since I have not seen the ankle markings.

Hi WolfmarsGirl,
Hypothetically speaking if JBR was struggling and maybe got away if Patsy grabbed her leg with both hands could that account for the marks, and possibly even the scratching on her ankles??? Just a thought.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

...Also, maybe it's a guy thing but whenever I cradled my own children of that size, at best I would have replicated the back marks, but my left hand never ends up on their face (and if it did, I certainly wouldn't be SQUEEZING it). Instead, my right hand ends up around the back in the position you describe, but my left hand ends up on wrist or arm (or if they lie over my arm, then back somewhere on the torse: it's hard to imagine ever ending up on the face without being quite contorted).

Hi Doc. Yes, I think this might be a guy thing, because I don't think you realize the position that I am describing.

You are right, if you are just holding your child on your lap, you would clutch her arm or around her shoulders with your upper hand (right or left).

However, if you are clutching her face to yours, or you are holding her face under your chin, you would have to hold her face in your own hand if the child was not able to support her head on her own...You would not let the child's head dangle backwards, unless you were carrying her.

If you were a grief-stricken mother, you would pull her face to yours. I can't imagine a mother holding her lifeless child with the child's face any distance away from her own.

Can you?

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

Hi WolfmarsGirl,
Hypothetically speaking if JBR was struggling and maybe got away if Patsy grabbed her leg with both hands could that account for the marks, and possibly even the scratching on her ankles??? Just a thought.

Hi angel'

I think if someone grabbed her leg and pulled, for whatever reason, she would have marks on her leg. I am not convinced the marks on the leg match the ones on the rest of her body, however. I think the leg marks may, in fact, be scratches, as you stated.

I don't think Patsy made the other marks during a struggle. To me, it looks like she was holding her in the same position for a few seconds even before Patsy realized how tightly she was holding her. To me, such a sudden, unthinking, totally natural reaction indicates remorse and grief.

I think the face and back marks happened after the child was severely injured and before the cover-up that ended her life...

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

WolfmarsGirl,

...The individual twin marks on the leg measure close to the measurements of the individual twin marks on the back, but unfortunately the coroner didn't give the measurements between the marks at either location. However, we know the approximate measurements of the injuries on the back because of the autopsy photos. By scaling the photos, the distance measures about 1 3/8" between the twin rectangular injuries...

And that is just about the distance between where two rings would sit on two fingers of an average-sized woman's hand, if the fingers are very slightly spread (the measurement matches my own hands very closely)...

C'mon BC, grab an average-sized woman and measure her yourself ...

 

[sissi]

He was NOT the best Colorado had to offer--he was available.

Those who worked with him found him unprofessional, unable to follow the evidence, and delusional to a point of making up his own evidence.

You manage to forget that when he left the investigation he proved he was nothing but a common criminal by STEALING evidence.

Those who worked with him during a career spanning decades found him to be the best, and a meticulous professional. Yes, Steve Thomas found him the way you say, but that's it, no one before the Steve crew. You don't understand the Steve was considered unprofessional among his peers, Ainsworth for example had nothing good to say about Steve.
Wood..quote..

There were a number of individuals who were involved in the investigation in the first few months who felt strongly that the intruder evidence was strong and it was not being followed.

Thurston Hughes (ph) I mentioned, a former assistant district attorney, a police officer named Steve Ainsworth (ph), who's recognized out in Boulder as one of the best homicide cops still working. Individuals in the D.A.'s office. Mary Keenan worked on this case early on. An individual named Pete Hosterman (ph), who kept a very open mind.

All of those individuals that felt like the intruder evidence was strong and was not being followed were mysteriously removed from the case in 1998 before the grand jury was convened. So that the only people involved as a practical matter were the people who were bent on this idea that the Ramseys had to do it.

You may want to dig up some LKL transcripts to get some Ainsworth quotes.

 

[WolfmarsGirl]

Ok, here is a challenge for all of you stun gunners out there (er, I mean those of you who believe a stun gun was used in this crime )

Since this is the holiday shopping season anyway, stop by a jewlery store. Heck, stop by the costume jewlery counter at a department store.

Pick out a cluster-type ring. They are not difficult to find. It has to be one that has the stones arranged to form a larger circle, like the one Patsy wore in some photos.

Press the ring to your hand for, oh, I don't know...maybe 30 seconds.

Look at the impression the ring made in your hand. Look at the pattern within the larger circle. Then, look at the mark on little Jonbenet's face!

Ok, if you are really up to the challenge, take a digital picture of your hand after you made the impression...Post it here.

Come on, I dare you!

Why do I think I will not have any takers...Hmmm?

 

[Camper]

Wolfmarsgirl, I sorta think that the theory about jewelry making the multiple marks may have merit. BUT, and there is always a but, 'where is the ring/?/now, who wore it and how do you prove it eight years later?

The focus on the forum has been in my view, to find the missing link that would place the Ramseys in a court of law, under oath being tried for the murder of their daughter, or can we perhaps try them as a pair?




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[WolfmarsGirl]

Wolfmarsgirl, I sorta think that the theory about jewelry making the multiple marks may have merit. BUT, and there is always a but, 'where is the ring/?/now, who wore it and how do you prove it eight years later?

The focus on the forum has been in my view, to find the missing link that would place the Ramseys in a court of law, under oath being tried for the murder of their daughter, or can we perhaps try them as a pair?




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Hi Camper!!

Regarding where the ring is now: Someone on another forum, at one time, suggested that maybe it was 'stolen' by the mysterious thief that John confronted...Remember that whole episode?

I do know LE was interested in Patsy's rings. At least they questioned her about her ring/jewlery habits during interviews...(If anyone wants an exact citation about this line of questioning, let me know...it is pretty easy to find.)

Although, Patsy might keep the rings hidden in plain sight. I have seen the cluster-ring show up on her hand on at least one other occasion since the murder...

As I have stated previously, all we need to do is find someone who saw Patsy on Christmas day who can testify to whether or not she had on multiple rings and to whether or not she had on the large, round cluster ring...

Since there has been so much mystery surounding the details of the Whites' party, I think maybe all the answers lie in the witnesses who were present at the party. Nothing about pictures that were taken, videos, JBR's hair-style, etc., came out of that party. (I think the hair-style was also crucial, although not part of this thread...)

To me, the lack of information coming out of the party indicates that the party is where all the answers can be found...

 

[TLynn]

Does anyone remember JonBenet's picture (I think it was the one with a red and white dress, on a porch...?) that showed the same type of marking (just below her knee...?)

I looked all over acandyrose.com site to see if I could find the picture - but didn't find any pictures?!

Many moons ago, there was a discussion re: the similarity of the markings.

 

[Camper]

Yes I do remember that red and white dress, believe it had tiny red hearts on it, and JonBenet was standing barefooted on a wooden porch, with the marks. Don't remember that we came to any decision about what made the marks though.

WMG, the marks are so perfect in shape, I am having a mental moment. There was a Mel Brooks movie where he has a position in a home for mentally damaged people, can't remember the name of it, I do have the movie though. Cloris Leachman and Harvey Korman were head honchos at the 'home' and were involved in S & M stuff. I recall seeing a leather belt in the movie that had studs sticking out of it.

Could JonBenet have been struck on the side of the head with such a thing? It could also explain the marks on her back side too. Those studs would leave perfect marks, with definite spacing, and probably no other mark would show. since the studs stick out and away from the leather surface there would be NO leather strap marks.





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[sissi]

http://maketoast.com/noframes/JBRamsey/jonbenetramseypics/whyjonbenet2.jpg

Photographer's shot?

Camper, hmmmmm..a lot of the younger people ,both those into heavy metal and those that are into Goth wear those wristbands. Juda Priest wore them in 1980!

 

[Camper]

quite fond of my mental moment, anyone want to practice with an S & M strap with studs, Blue Crab er huh?


9 to 5 movie had some S & M stuff in it, remember Dabney Coleman sp? the boss tied up to a hoist etc.

------------:chicken:



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