BlueCrab
New Member
Sprocket said:
Sprocket,
Posted what? I'm not an encyclopedia.
Was a stun gun used in the crime or not
- Thread starter ManInTheBox
- Start date
Sprocket,
Posted what? I'm not an encyclopedia.
sissi
Former Member
I don't know when Lou Smit decided they were stun gun marks, if fact I don't think it was he who made that call. When he was called in on the case, after looking at the marks in autopsy photos, finding them interesting, he consulted with Meyer ,Doberson and others before "identifying" them as suspected stun gun marks. Smit's more of a "team" player than most that were involved at any level in this case, he would not make a statement without first speaking with the person who did the autopsy and persons who have seen such marks in autopsies. He follows the "old school" rules, giving each person their input ,not hopping over the facts to create his "own" scenario.
TLynn
New Member
Smit had just solved a previous (cold?) case with a stun gun. Maybe he thought he was on a "roll."
The interview is interesting as I thought the security video was a rumor (and wasn't it in Spanish?).
Where would the stun gun have gone - IF the Ramseys were involved?
The interview is interesting as I thought the security video was a rumor (and wasn't it in Spanish?).
Where would the stun gun have gone - IF the Ramseys were involved?
BlueCrab
New Member
TLynn said:
TLynn,
The missing stun gun, and the other evidence that is missing (the roll of duct tape, the rest of the white nylon cord, the nine pages from the notepad, the wipedown cloth that left fibers on JonBenet, etc.) is evidence that a fifth person had been in the house that night, and he carried out the missing items of crime scene evidence when he exited the house.
However, that fifth person had to have been let in or invited in by a Ramsey. The Ramseys wouldn't be lying and covering up to protect an unknown intruder. They would do this only if a family member was involved in the crime along with that fifth person.
JMO
Camper
New Member
Wellllll, Melody Stanton, heard a scream, woke her husband, then they both heard a scraping sound in the street ?, then later Melody backtracted on even hearing a scream. Not hearing a scream WHY would she wake her husband to tell him about it?
BUT but could the scraping sound have been a manhole cover removed and items tossed in there?
In all of my trips down 15th street, past the 'murder' house, I have NEVER looked to see if there was a manhole cover 'available'.
This will require a more careful inspection. IF there is one, then WHO retrieved the items at a later date? Far fetched ?, ho hum, the whole case has become ho hum to LE, imop.
Sprocket, your signature line shows that you are in the business of SEWING, would you give a case of thead to a potential purchaser of some of your stitched wares, or even a spool of thread? Todays prices on a sales expense such as a video on security items, would equate close to the cost of a 'spool' of thread.
Where did all of the missing thingies go, better call in a phychic for that one.
Such a video as the one for the security items, stun gun, et al, would no doubt have information on the HOW to order items shown on it. Otherwise why bother making the video, another double duh? Comes under the category of NOT hiding your light under a basket.
The missing video, seems quite logical and not too ho hum to me. A tradition is a tradition.
I made mince meat turnovers with lemon glaze, again this Thanksgiving, have done so for 45 years now, my children expect them, it has become a tradition. Just labor on my part, no batteries needed.
.
BUT but could the scraping sound have been a manhole cover removed and items tossed in there?
In all of my trips down 15th street, past the 'murder' house, I have NEVER looked to see if there was a manhole cover 'available'.
This will require a more careful inspection. IF there is one, then WHO retrieved the items at a later date? Far fetched ?, ho hum, the whole case has become ho hum to LE, imop.
Sprocket, your signature line shows that you are in the business of SEWING, would you give a case of thead to a potential purchaser of some of your stitched wares, or even a spool of thread? Todays prices on a sales expense such as a video on security items, would equate close to the cost of a 'spool' of thread.
Where did all of the missing thingies go, better call in a phychic for that one.
Such a video as the one for the security items, stun gun, et al, would no doubt have information on the HOW to order items shown on it. Otherwise why bother making the video, another double duh? Comes under the category of NOT hiding your light under a basket.
The missing video, seems quite logical and not too ho hum to me. A tradition is a tradition.
I made mince meat turnovers with lemon glaze, again this Thanksgiving, have done so for 45 years now, my children expect them, it has become a tradition. Just labor on my part, no batteries needed.
.
Oh, are you refering to Doberson, the same "certified forensic pathologist" who is on record telling the press that you CANNOT tell by a photograph if a stun gun was used? Or Meyer, who actually said "anything's possible", (as in "yeah, it could be vampire bites too").BlueCrab said:
You managed to leave off the minor details, BlueCrab & Sissi.
Not only doesn't a stun gun fit the crime, but the marks aren't even consistant with each other. So I guess the question should be "Did the perp use THREE stun guns on JonBenet?"
BlueCrab,BlueCrab said:
You are assuming a whole lot that isn't even in evidence.
*Stun gun use was never and WILL NEVER be proven.
*The tape left a line of green paint on her chin so it may have been a single piece of tape peeled off Patsy's paint tote.
*There is no evidence additional or excess cord even existed.
*The writing pad was not new, and the missing pages could have been pulled from it weeks before the crime.
*The police never searched the house for a "wipe down" cloth, nor did take any cloths, towels, washrags, etc., into evidence.
You can't claim it's missing when there is no proof it ever existed in the first place. Why don't you also claim the horse that the perp rode off on is missing?
Jayelles
New Member
aRnd2it said:
Or - the roll of duct tape could have been lying on paint. The edge of a roll of tape tends to pick up stuff because of the adhesive. I've been annoyed to use sticky tape and to discover black lines on the edges where it has been lying on dust.
BlueCrab
New Member
aRnd2it said:
Rnd2
o NOTHING "is in evidence". There was no trial.
o If you can't accept the opinions of experts (the forensic pathologists) then you are right -- the existence of a stun gun will never be proven, to YOU.
o What, did the single piece of Shurtape brand of black duct tape (actually manufactured in Hickory, N.C. just a month before the murder) magically grow all by itself on Patsy's paint tote, and was harvested from the tote by the perp? Come on now. There STILL had to be a ROLL of duct tape some where from which the tape on JonBenet was cut from. There was no evidence of the tape being used elsewhere in the house. The roll of tape
wasn't in the house, nor anywhere else that was searched.
o The 1/4" wide white nylon cord, distributed by Stansport in California, is sold in 50' and 100' rolls. There was no evidence of the cord being used elsewhere in the house. There had to be leftover cord, but the balance of the cord wasn't in the house.
o The nine missing pages were directly in front of the three pages on which the ransom note was written. It's reasonable to assume the nine pages were used for practice, and then taken by the perp as he cleaned up any evidence.
o The house (and all of the clothing, fabrics, etc. in it) was totally searched by the cops for the wipedown cloth that left dark fibers on JonBenet's labia and on her inner thighs. It was never found.
JMO
Camper
New Member
My comments, Camper, are in blue to the quote posted here from aRnd2it
What 'IT'S' specifically are you making reference to ?, the stun gun? IF 'a' stun gun was used to kill JonBenet, why crush her skull TOO?
IF the garrote was used on her and caused the DEATH, why crush her skull too and then, and then, ask for RANSOM money, and LEAVE her body in the basement?
Would you like to buy some swamp land?
---------------
IF IF a blood hound had been called in ASAP, sniffed the garotte, while all the 'usual suspects' were sitting in the 'parlor', might have been a whole different story today! imop of course Ramsey Sr. had loosened the rope around JonBenets wrists, if I recall correctly! Why do that when she was already dead, and this was a crisis. He should have just screamed and hollered for HELP!!!!!!!! imop. He no doubt destroyed forensic evidence. A blood hound in JonBenets bedroom ASAP would have found the little girl, before JOHN had his chance. Fumbled, and fowled up case, imop.
.
aRnd2it said:
What 'IT'S' specifically are you making reference to ?, the stun gun? IF 'a' stun gun was used to kill JonBenet, why crush her skull TOO?
IF the garrote was used on her and caused the DEATH, why crush her skull too and then, and then, ask for RANSOM money, and LEAVE her body in the basement?
Would you like to buy some swamp land?
---------------
IF IF a blood hound had been called in ASAP, sniffed the garotte, while all the 'usual suspects' were sitting in the 'parlor', might have been a whole different story today! imop of course Ramsey Sr. had loosened the rope around JonBenets wrists, if I recall correctly! Why do that when she was already dead, and this was a crisis. He should have just screamed and hollered for HELP!!!!!!!! imop. He no doubt destroyed forensic evidence. A blood hound in JonBenets bedroom ASAP would have found the little girl, before JOHN had his chance. Fumbled, and fowled up case, imop.
.
BlueCrab,BlueCrab said:
You're right, there was no trial. So where do you get your "opinions of experts" when none have testified? All you have is some character who says whatever will get him the most publicity at the time. (First you can't tell by photos, now you can--the man has already impeached himself without ever entering a courtroom.)
As for Meyer, you have no idea what he would or wouldn't say on the stand. Beckner says there is evidence that proves a stun gun wasn't used and for all you know Meyer was the one to develop that evidence.
You claim there was a whole roll of tape present, but yet whoever applied it to her mouth used so little of it that it not only wouldn't have held her mouth shut, but it was obvious to everyone that it was crime scene staging. With a whole roll at your disposal, why not make proper use of it and make it appear authentic?
You are right on the length the cord was sold in, but how do you know the rest of the length wasn't used at an earlier time long before the night of crime? Can you prove JR didn't use the majority of cord the previous summer while sailing? No, you can't - therefore you can't prove there was excess cord that night that someone disposed of.
You say it's reasonable to assume the 9 missing pages were used for practice and disposed of, but in reality there was a practice page that WAS NOT taken. So therefore it is reasonable to assume the missing pages had nothing to do with the crime or the existing practice note would be missing too.
Whoever wrote the note left the remaining page in the pad and the pen behind. They didn't care if it was obvious that they used an item from the house during the crime. So why would they have taken excess anything? The Ramseys could have always claimed that the cord, tape, and cloth, was theirs and the perp used them just like he did the pen and pad.
sissi
Former Member
Originally Posted by aRnd2it
BlueCrab,
*The tape left a line of green paint on her chin so it may have been a single piece of tape peeled off Patsy's paint tote.
Was there really a green paint stripe on her chin? Is this some kind of inside information you have aRnd? If not can you share your source?
BlueCrab,
*The tape left a line of green paint on her chin so it may have been a single piece of tape peeled off Patsy's paint tote.
Was there really a green paint stripe on her chin? Is this some kind of inside information you have aRnd? If not can you share your source?
It's a very old case fact that I have long forgotten where I first heard about it. Reference to it wasn't hard to find on Google though. Here's Smit talking about it:sissi said:
"On JonBenet's chin was a green paint strip and a fiber from the carpet outside the wine cellar. The green strip came from contents of a paint tray just outside the wine cellar. "
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_408302,00.html
sissi
Former Member
Thanks, I guess it was a strip, I don't know why, but so long ago, I heard she had a green paint chip on her chin, never heard a strip before?
edit to add
I am sticking with the chip, and believe strip was a misquote or typo.
edit to add
I am sticking with the chip, and believe strip was a misquote or typo.
Camper
New Member
That McGuckin Hardware is the Disneyland of hardware stores. It is HUGE, a great enormous store!!!!!!!! A wonderful source for Christmas shopping, IF they don't have it, you don't need it. Not just screws and hammers anymore.
Blue Crab I quote here: "Incidentally, the duct tape and the cord are both widely used in camping. The cord was sold in the sporting goods aisle of McGuckins hardware store in Boulder."
Boy I wonder how many CU students or Boulder perverts purchased this rope, wonder if PD could check any that was purchased with a credit card, perhaps to Inouye, probably not. If the whole student body in Boulder was making garrotes, should be a healthy amount sold. Not much camping goes on in the winter in Colorado, too cold. Some hearty ice fishermen still prevail here.
Hindsight is so powerful and so late isn't it? Hindsight is a wonderful training tool for future misdeeds.
.
Blue Crab I quote here: "Incidentally, the duct tape and the cord are both widely used in camping. The cord was sold in the sporting goods aisle of McGuckins hardware store in Boulder."
Boy I wonder how many CU students or Boulder perverts purchased this rope, wonder if PD could check any that was purchased with a credit card, perhaps to Inouye, probably not. If the whole student body in Boulder was making garrotes, should be a healthy amount sold. Not much camping goes on in the winter in Colorado, too cold. Some hearty ice fishermen still prevail here.
Hindsight is so powerful and so late isn't it? Hindsight is a wonderful training tool for future misdeeds.
.
twizzler333
Inactive
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2004
- Messages
- 230
- Reaction score
- 0
BlueCrab said:
OK....IF the Ramsey's plan was foiled because of the snowfall that night and thus, were "trapped" and could not complete their cover up, then how did the fifth person get out without leaving a trace? Because an intruder could very well have gone out a door, just as easily as the fifth person you claim did.
Camper
New Member
Twizzler 333 your response, I quote: "OK....IF the Ramsey's plan was foiled because of the snowfall that night and thus, were "trapped" and could not complete their cover up, then how did the fifth person get out without leaving a trace? Because an intruder could very well have gone out a door, just as easily as the fifth person you claim did.
I will just jump in here. It was just a skiff of snow, sorta like faerie dust. The fact that the burglar alarm was not set, makes me think, that someone else was expected 'that' night. Donut know who.
The next morning, when the note was found, BPD were called.
By the time BPD arrived, the whole covey of friends, were already there, having trooped up the walks and through the doors. Fleet came and went with Burke, footie prints everywhere that had vanished early AM. Tiny skiffs of snow like that one, in Colorado, almost disappear by blowing on them. I have lived here since 1946, that would be 60 Colorado winters.
.
I will just jump in here. It was just a skiff of snow, sorta like faerie dust. The fact that the burglar alarm was not set, makes me think, that someone else was expected 'that' night. Donut know who.
The next morning, when the note was found, BPD were called.
By the time BPD arrived, the whole covey of friends, were already there, having trooped up the walks and through the doors. Fleet came and went with Burke, footie prints everywhere that had vanished early AM. Tiny skiffs of snow like that one, in Colorado, almost disappear by blowing on them. I have lived here since 1946, that would be 60 Colorado winters.
.
It's certainly possible Burke was involved in the crime. If Burke was, there may be some connection to Doug Stine which would explain the strange and bizarre behavour after the crime by Doug's parents.BlueCrab said:
I think as a young adult, Nathan Inouye was probably investigated by LE and had a good alibi. I think I remember someone investigating Inouye and finding out he was out of state with relatives for the holidays.
BlueCrab
New Member
twizzler333 said:
Twizzler,
I think he left by bicycle. Patsy's new bike she had just gotten for Christmas was apparently missing and there were bike tracks in the snow, across the front lawn. The cops have a crime scene photo of the tracks before they melted (crime scene photo #101).
It seems the Ramseys eventually got the bike back, but it's never been publicly admitted who took it and how they got it back (if it was gone in the first place).
From the 1998 interviews:
LOU SMIT: "You know, I've looked at a lot of pictures in regards to this particular case and I can't remember seeing any bikes. What happened to the bikes?"
JOHN RAMSEY: "Well, they were in the garage, I guess. JonBenet rode her bike for a moment outside before we went to the White's; just around the patio. I'm sure that went back in the garage. Patsy's bike, I don't know, it could have gone in the garage. I don't remember."
LOU SMIT: "Have you seen it since, Patsy's bike?"
JOHN RAMSEY: "Yeah. We have it."
LOU SMIT: "(inaudible) took it?"
JOHN RAMSEY: "No. We gave, JonBenet's bike we gave away. Patsy's bike we haven't ... "
......
This exchange could be interpreted several ways, of course. My guess: Doug Stine took the bike home after the boys finished staging the crime scene; he lived five blocks away.
JMO
BlueCrab
New Member
aRnd2it said:
Rnd2,
I agree with your assessment about the behavior of the Stines. That's why I red-flagged Doug early-on as possibly involved.
The investigation into Nathan Inouye by LE is questionable. It appears his name was being kept secret, so that's why I got interested in him. I was the only person who dug up his name and put it on the net. A WS poster e-mailed Nathan about 2 years ago and he e-mailed back saying he was home in California during the holidays of 1996, but there's NOTHING in the police files or anywhere else that we know of to verify that.
My interest perked about Nathan, who was Doug's live-in caregiver at the Stine's house and sometimes helped babysit Burke and JonBenet, when I found out he was a member of a "small foreign faction" at CU, the Asian Pacific American Coalition. APAC was a liberal, politically active group of 29 people who were interested in bettering the lives of Asian Americans in the U.S., but which had some extreme views on how to go about it. Among APAC's concerns was its perception that violent crimes, such as rape and murder, against Asian American women were not being being solved. APAC suspiciously disbanded just weeks after JonBenet was murdered.
Also, it appears Doug Stine's name and Nathan Inouye's name have been purged from PMPT, which was published immediately following the adjournment of the grand jury in October of 1999. IMO it was by court order. The PMPT index lists about 500 names, but Doug's name appears just once, and Nathan's not at all. As you know, my theory is the grand jury solved the murder, it involved children too young to prosecute, and the case is under seal by order of the court.
JMO