Was the Ramsey house typically a mess?

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About whatever made those marks, we are assuming it was whilst she was perfectly alive. A cattle prod certainly wouldn't knock her out. All these devices of course would cause pain if alive. If she was barely conscious, say after being bashed in the head, it fits with a sexual sadist. A killer might have covered her mouth if not altogether carried her down while she was asleep. I am guessing it's also possible the garrotte could have been slipped around her neck, allowing control for it to be tightened at will to quieten her.

I think it matters if a person is to be tried for murder to be well certain that the marks can be produced by other..
means rather than just speculate.


I'm curious how you define speculate? You were posting about a cattle prod. I am not aware of anyone in the investigation ever suggesting JBR was shocked with a cattle prod.
Let's use logic and discuss what you would need to restrain and control a small 6 year old child who is sleeping and that your intention was to kidnap. Refocus to what was stated in the ransom note. Please don't lose sight of that little detail. We can get squirrely and convolute the story with he accidentally killed her, he stopped for a pre- party down in the basement but let's get back to the ORIGINAL plan of kidnapping. What would be the primary objective for carrying out a kidnapping?
I'm going with expediency and avoiding detection. We can talk about how sound may or may not travel in the home but an intruder certainly wouldn't know this or who is a light sleeper OR given the fact the children often slept in the same room, where everyone would be sleeping that night or if they possibly had house guests. I think BR told the detective that he though someone took her quietly downstairs. His phrase does not necessarily mean to literally carry her. Consider someone only had to give her a good reason to follow before you pull cattle prods out of the hat.
 
Is he implying this DA wanted to cover it up? Goes against that very profession. What ever could be the DA's motive?

All the testing people are describing of the sounds which could be heard throughout the house are done by waking persons so right off the bat, it's a faulty way to gauge what may have happened on the night.

No, I think he's saying the DA clearly wanted to cover it up. The DA was Alex Hunter, famous now for his non-prosecutorial zeal and for having obstructed the investigation. I won't try to answer fully here. It's too far off-topic and deserves a separate discussion.

You asked what tests had been done to determine whether a child's screams could be heard 2 + 3 floors up by sleeping occupants. All I can tell you is what the three main books report. It doesn't appear that investigators did sound tests with one of them asleep on the third floor, although from Kolar's wording it's possible one of them dozed off. But does it make any difference? Let's say they had tried it with one of them asleep. This could go to hair-splitting pretty quickly. Is a nap as deep as nighttime sleep? Was he as light or as deep a sleeper as PR or JR? Would he have slept more deeply in a real bed (furniture had been removed)? Would the furnished house have absorbed more of the sound? Similar questions would apply to BR on the second floor. Do you see what I mean? Given so many variables, any gauge would have been imperfect.

Investigators want to rule things in or out to keep the investigation focused, so they don't waste time and effort. These investigators wanted to know whether a shout or scream in the basement could be heard on the third floor at all because, it if couldn't, the rest was moot. It didn't matter whether the parents were awake or asleep. What they found was that some of them could hear a shout from the basement, some couldn't; and the sound carried less well inside the house than it did across the street to the Stanton's. PR said she was a heavy sleeper. JR said he took melatonin to sleep soundly. If their statements are true, we can reasonably infer - and it sounds like the police did - that any scream from the basement probably wasn't loud enough on the third floor to wake either parent.
 
Is he implying this DA wanted to cover it up? Goes against that very profession. What ever could be the DA's motive?

She may have been carried down with mouth covered or a garrotte used to prevent her screaming (cord fibres were found on her bed if I'm not mistakken). In the basement, she may have been assaulted with one implement before another was used. If the marks are bruising/abrasion from something on the ground, then she was assaulted with only the paint brush handle, and hit on the head when she screamed before being forcefully strangled (not necessarily to kill her) while the killer gratifies himself for sexual release. No mess if he were still clothed seeing as he's not going to be keen to stick around. It's not a firm theory I have. I am however curious to hear a run-through of what everyone else believes happened.

I think it matters if a person is to be tried for murder to be well certain that the marks can be produced by other means rather than just speculate.


That is not a very rigorous test like LS at least tried with the stun gun on an anesthetized pig.


All the testing people are describing of the sounds which could be heard throughout the house are done by waking persons so right off the bat, it's a faulty way to gauge what may have happened on the night.
The DA and his office did a lot of obstruction and non- cooperation with police in this case. If you look at the connections with R lawyers and associates you can draw your own conclusions.

The tests that Kolar did were on a willing, human subject. They applied varying degrees of pressure with a train track. The marks were much more similar than the electrodes of a stun gun. A anesthetized pig would not have reacted in the same way a living human being would. How is testing on an actual human being considered less rigorous?

I have to disagree with your opinion that the sound tests done in the house were faulty simply because no one was asleep. The point was to either prove or disprove that sounds could be heard being made within the house from other areas of the house. So I guess the next step would have been to conduct sleep analysis tests with the three remaining R's in order to satisfy the bar of more rigorous testing? I highly doubt given their well documented track record of minimal cooperation and solely on their terms, that they would have agreed to that. What is most important though, is that it was proved that most people were able to hear sounds being made in other parts of the house.

In the infamous interview with Dr. Phil, BR was asked if he thought he'd be able hear sounds from the basement while in his room. The answer was, "probably, yeah". Is this conclusive? No. But he lived there and was familiar with hearing sounds made from other areas of the house. He also at one point said he could hear when the refrigerator was being opened in the kitchen while in his room, that's typically not a very loud sound.
 
@ispywithmylittleeye @Meara @CloudedTruth
You'd have to test theories wherever possible IMO, to minimize the need to speculate.
It looks like people are finding any way they can, because of working on the presumption of guilt of the R's, to say there's no possible way the other family members could not have heard even a mouse. It's as if intruder break-ins have never occurred before to other people without the victims being aware until the intruder is right in their faces.
I've seen lack of or no Ramsey theories/ideas offered detailing the series of events leading up to her death by Websleuthers. I've said more than once in the past I do not have an actual theory, not one I'm firm on at least. This doesn't mean I cannot work through the possibilities.
If indeed a kidnapping attempt and it was derailed, then he does his evil there before fleeing. It may have originally been an intended kidnapping but then a change of mind for whatever reason. The killer may have walked her down, controlling her with a garrotte. The cattle prod suggestion was once they were down in the basement. That torch on the kitchen counter though probably turns this entirely on its head.. The RN is weird to be sure.. Maybe BR did it..there are unanswered questions with this. As I've also said before, I'm open to what might have transpired. I'm reading the replies not all that interested in responding, not out of disrespect, but because I am not convinced the family weren't responsible.
Like I could answer to Meara that I think it likely furniture will absorb sound and I hadn't known the sound tests were done in an unfurnished house. Or to Clouded Truth, the corruption suspicions are based off a one-sided author's story, in a hugely public career making case for a DA if they crack it. And that it's nonsensical to disregard sleeping people which can be simulated using participants.
However! I've been thinking about the R theories too.
 
@ispywithmylittleeye @Meara @CloudedTruth
You'd have to test theories wherever possible IMO, to minimize the need to speculate.
It looks like people are finding any way they can, because of working on the presumption of guilt of the R's, to say there's no possible way the other family members could not have heard even a mouse. It's as if intruder break-ins have never occurred before to other people without the victims being aware until the intruder is right in their faces.
I've seen lack of or no Ramsey theories/ideas offered detailing the series of events leading up to her death by Websleuthers. I've said more than once in the past I do not have an actual theory, not one I'm firm on at least. This doesn't mean I cannot work through the possibilities.
If indeed a kidnapping attempt and it was derailed, then he does his evil there before fleeing. It may have originally been an intended kidnapping but then a change of mind for whatever reason. The killer may have walked her down, controlling her with a garrotte. The cattle prod suggestion was once they were down in the basement. That torch on the kitchen counter though probably turns this entirely on its head.. The RN is weird to be sure.. Maybe BR did it..there are unanswered questions with this. As I've also said before, I'm open to what might have transpired. I'm reading the replies not all that interested in responding, not out of disrespect, but because I am not convinced the family weren't responsible.
Like I could answer to Meara that I think it likely furniture will absorb sound and I hadn't known the sound tests were done in an unfurnished house. Or to Clouded Truth, the corruption suspicions are based off a one-sided author's story, in a hugely public career making case for a DA if they crack it. And that it's nonsensical to disregard sleeping people which can be simulated using participants.
However! I've been thinking about the R theories too.
Since you have addressed me directly, I will say this....

The "corruption suspicions" as have referred to them are not based upon a one-sided author's story. I have done a lot f research on this case, and what went on at the DA's office, what actions and in-actions the DA himself was involved in are well documented. I detailed just some of them in another post. There was definite bias shown that greatly impacted the investigation and that cannot be denied. It's fact and it has been reported should you choose to look into it. And what is suspicious to me, is that the DA was not called on the carpet for it, as some of it was blatantly improper.

I, as am sure is the case with many others who have taken the time to research the various facts and theories about this case have at one time supported any one of the different opinions as to who did it. I am always willing to entertain new facts and evidence that comes to light no matter where it leads. Lou Smit's investigation being one of them, and certainly his theories and opinions as to how an intruder could have gotten in and done this shed a different light on the case, and I considered all of this. But much of what he projected has been debunked. I would also point out that he came to his main conclusion of an intruder within a mere 2 weeks on the case. Other investigators who came into the case after the fact as he did, have spoken about just how long it takes to look at all the available evidence and interviews just to get up to speed, let alone come to an overriding opinion. Lou hung his hat on things that have been disproven.....the hi-tec boot mark based upon the word of the R's that no one in the family owned that brand of boot, later admitted by BR that he did in fact own and that he was in the wine cellar. The hand print on the door jam that belonged to no one in the house, later proven to belong to JR's older daughter Melinda. The list of things that he found suspicious that were proven to have an answer and a reason. The simple fact of the matter is that the evidence of an intruder is virtually null.

I think most of us who do not believe the intruder theory have at one time considered it.Of course break-ins and intruders occur. And no one is arguing that even a mouse could have been heard, it was a response to your suppositions and detailing how tests were performed on what sounds could possibly be heard. Just as you are steadfast that it's possible they "might not" have heard anything, it's not presumption of guilt to consider that it was possible that they could have heard something. What you consider to be nonsensical needs to be looked at as in how practical. The only way to even come close to an accurate testing of sleep patterns that would have been present in the house that night would be to duplicate them with those who were in the house that night, otherwise there can be no accurate conclusions. It comes down to what is reasonable in terms of time and money spent in investigating. What becomes apparent though, is that LE in this case did a lot of testing that the general public is not aware of. What was reported though, as encouraged and leaked by the DA's office, is that there was nothing but incompetence.

All sides of the story and all angles should be carefully examined.
 
Since you have addressed me directly, I will say this....

The "corruption suspicions" as have referred to them are not based upon a one-sided author's story. I have done a lot f research on this case, and what went on at the DA's office, what actions and in-actions the DA himself was involved in are well documented. I detailed just some of them in another post. There was definite bias shown that greatly impacted the investigation and that cannot be denied. It's fact and it has been reported should you choose to look into it. And what is suspicious to me, is that the DA was not called on the carpet for it, as some of it was blatantly improper.

I, as am sure is the case with many others who have taken the time to research the various facts and theories about this case have at one time supported any one of the different opinions as to who did it. I am always willing to entertain new facts and evidence that comes to light no matter where it leads. Lou Smit's investigation being one of them, and certainly his theories and opinions as to how an intruder could have gotten in and done this shed a different light on the case, and I considered all of this. But much of what he projected has been debunked. I would also point out that he came to his main conclusion of an intruder within a mere 2 weeks on the case. Other investigators who came into the case after the fact as he did, have spoken about just how long it takes to look at all the available evidence and interviews just to get up to speed, let alone come to an overriding opinion. Lou hung his hat on things that have been disproven.....the hi-tec boot mark based upon the word of the R's that no one in the family owned that brand of boot, later admitted by BR that he did in fact own and that he was in the wine cellar. The hand print on the door jam that belonged to no one in the house, later proven to belong to JR's older daughter Melinda. The list of things that he found suspicious that were proven to have an answer and a reason. The simple fact of the matter is that the evidence of an intruder is virtually null.

I think most of us who do not believe the intruder theory have at one time considered it.Of course break-ins and intruders occur. And no one is arguing that even a mouse could have been heard, it was a response to your suppositions and detailing how tests were performed on what sounds could possibly be heard. Just as you are steadfast that it's possible they "might not" have heard anything, it's not presumption of guilt to consider that it was possible that they could have heard something. What you consider to be nonsensical needs to be looked at as in how practical. The only way to even come close to an accurate testing of sleep patterns that would have been present in the house that night would be to duplicate them with those who were in the house that night, otherwise there can be no accurate conclusions. It comes down to what is reasonable in terms of time and money spent in investigating. What becomes apparent though, is that LE in this case did a lot of testing that the general public is not aware of. What was reported though, as encouraged and leaked by the DA's office, is that there was nothing but incompetence.

All sides of the story and all angles should be carefully examined.
The DA and police had a rocky relationship. The police had been myopic from the start. Linda Arndt was dead sure (no pun intended) she was looking at the killer referring to JR after he found JB's body. But if the DA was perceived to have acted improperly, yeah, that should be explained, and possibly investigated/them removed as appropriate. I've been on the fence though do think the R theories come off as pretty outlandish. The BDI one with the parents finishing her off execution style along with defiling her with a jagged stick. Grotesque and very strange. Parents are known to kill their kids but in most cases there's obvious dysfunction..drugs, family violence, separation/custody issues etc. I also don't think those cases normally involve torture like this. Making the case against the Ramseys, who were about to embark on a family trip over the holidays, highly unusual. Someone made a point of why not just hire the best lawyers if it was an accident rather than take a huge risk with an elaborate staging. It's over the top to take a garotte to her - and by a parent to cover up - if the head blow did the job. Yet it makes more sense than an intruder?
When I suggested an alternative to the stun device, it was also my lay person's hypothesis LS might not have it got it exactly right but could still be in the ballpark regarding an intruder. But agree he seemed too hasty in reaching his conclusions. About Burke's Hi-Tecs and the cellar, where did he state that? A judge in a libel case between Wolfe and the Ramseys, Carne(?), had a contrary view, to the evidence she had available at the time, being "virtually null". It's fine to test the house's acoustics per se but would be a bit of a reach to use as evidence against the R's. The foreign DNA, which must have some substance to be put onto CODIS and which police are still working with, has been completely disregarded.

MOO.
 
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The DA and police had a rocky relationship. The police had been myopic from the start. Linda Arndt was dead sure (no pun intended) she was looking at the killer referring to JR after he found JB's body. But if the DA was perceived to have acted improperly, yeah, that should be explained, and possibly investigated/them removed as appropriate. I've been on the fence though do think the R theories come off as pretty outlandish. The BDI one with the parents finishing her off execution style along with defiling her with a jagged stick. Grotesque and very strange. Parents are known to kill their kids but in most cases there's obvious dysfunction..drugs, family violence, separation/custody issues etc. I also don't think those cases normally involve torture like this. Making the case against the Ramseys, who were about to embark on a family trip over the holidays, highly unusual. Someone made a point of why not just hire the best lawyers if it was an accident rather than take a huge risk with an elaborate staging. It's over the top to take a garotte to her - and by a parent to cover up - if the head blow did the job. Yet it makes more sense than an intruder?
When I suggested an alternative to the stun device, it was also my lay person's hypothesis LS might not have it got it exactly right but could still be in the ballpark regarding an intruder. But agree he seemed too hasty in reaching his conclusions. About Burke's Hi-Tecs and the cellar, where did he state that? A judge in a libel case between Wolfe and the Ramseys, Carne(?), had a contrary view, to the evidence she had available at the time, being "virtually null". It's fine to test the house's acoustics per se but would be a bit of a reach to use as evidence against the R's. The foreign DNA, which must have some substance to be put onto CODIS and which police are still working with, has been completely disregarded.

MOO.
I would encourage you to watch this video, as many issues are addressed, questions answered and certain talking points put out by the R's addressed.

 
The DA and police had a rocky relationship. The police had been myopic from the start. Linda Arndt was dead sure (no pun intended) she was looking at the killer referring to JR after he found JB's body. But if the DA was perceived to have acted improperly, yeah, that should be explained, and possibly investigated/them removed as appropriate. I've been on the fence though do think the R theories come off as pretty outlandish. The BDI one with the parents finishing her off execution style along with defiling her with a jagged stick. Grotesque and very strange. Parents are known to kill their kids but in most cases there's obvious dysfunction..drugs, family violence, separation/custody issues etc. I also don't think those cases normally involve torture like this. Making the case against the Ramseys, who were about to embark on a family trip over the holidays, highly unusual. Someone made a point of why not just hire the best lawyers if it was an accident rather than take a huge risk with an elaborate staging. It's over the top to take a garotte to her - and by a parent to cover up - if the head blow did the job. Yet it makes more sense than an intruder?
When I suggested an alternative to the stun device, it was also my lay person's hypothesis LS might not have it got it exactly right but could still be in the ballpark regarding an intruder. But agree he seemed too hasty in reaching his conclusions. About Burke's Hi-Tecs and the cellar, where did he state that? A judge in a libel case between Wolfe and the Ramseys, Carne(?), had a contrary view, to the evidence she had available at the time, being "virtually null". It's fine to test the house's acoustics per se but would be a bit of a reach to use as evidence against the R's. The foreign DNA, which must have some substance to be put onto CODIS and which police are still working with, has been completely disregarded.

MOO.
Linda Arndt may not have picked the correct perpetrator of the crime but she may have intuitively knew things were not adding up that morning starting with JR finding his daughter 7+ hours later in his own home, carrying up a stiff , cold child from the basement and asking if she was deceased, and I could go on. Why is it so hard to believe she was actually capable of perceiving that the behaviors didn't match with the situation at hand? Our brains are capable of interpreting a lot of information in many ways. Have you ever had someone lie to you and you knew they were lying without proof? This is often how a suspect will come into an investigator's site. It's not meant to be proof of guilt but a perception of guilt to be followed up on . That is not myopia. There is nothing wrong with that approach. It has to be vetted and all cases start somewhere.
Linda Arndt most likely also suffered from PTSD after what she witnessed that day. Just because you wear a badge doesn't mean you are not traumatized by events.
Is it really myopia when the parents didn't look hard enough in their own home to find JB? I promise you if my cat was lost in that house I'd find her. Let alone a six year old child. The house was messy, but I would have torn the s#%t out of the house looking for my child. Not "oh surprise, here she is. She was here all along." You think that didn't cause alarm bells in Arndt head to go off. It was their home, they should have found her before anyone did.
 
Linda Arndt may not have picked the correct perpetrator of the crime but she may have intuitively knew things were not adding up that morning starting with JR finding his daughter 7+ hours later in his own home, carrying up a stiff , cold child from the basement and asking if she was deceased, and I could go on. Why is it so hard to believe she was actually capable of perceiving that the behaviors didn't match with the situation at hand? Our brains are capable of interpreting a lot of information in many ways. Have you ever had someone lie to you and you knew they were lying without proof? This is often how a suspect will come into an investigator's site. It's not meant to be proof of guilt but a perception of guilt to be followed up on . That is not myopia. There is nothing wrong with that approach. It has to be vetted and all cases start somewhere.
Linda Arndt most likely also suffered from PTSD after what she witnessed that day. Just because you wear a badge doesn't mean you are not traumatized by events.
Is it really myopia when the parents didn't look hard enough in their own home to find JB? I promise you if my cat was lost in that house I'd find her. Let alone a six year old child. The house was messy, but I would have torn the s#%t out of the house looking for my child. Not "oh surprise, here she is. She was here all along." You think that didn't cause alarm bells in Arndt head to go off. It was their home, they should have found her before anyone did.
Incorrect perceptions can lead one astray. One has to be careful. There was a fixation on the parents that led to leaking of information to put pressure on them to talk. Which is a strange way to conduct an investigation. LA didn't say exactly what sort of look JR gave. Which is not evidence of any sort anyway. She must've reacted to the surprise find of JB. After PR found the RN I imagine there was an urgency of the R's to call the cops before a search could be completed of that big house..maybe they were convinced she was gone. Another person might want to know where an intruder could have gotten in. Hard to know what someone would do in that situation.
 
Incorrect perceptions can lead one astray. One has to be careful. There was a fixation on the parents that led to leaking of information to put pressure on them to talk. Which is a strange way to conduct an investigation. LA didn't say exactly what sort of look JR gave. Which is not evidence of any sort anyway. She must've reacted to the surprise find of JB. After PR found the RN I imagine there was an urgency of the R's to call the cops before a search could be completed of that big house..maybe they were convinced she was gone. Another person might want to know where an intruder could have gotten in. Hard to know what someone would do in that situation.
Investigations rely on human interpretation of information. Law enforcement didn't believe them then, people don't believe them now even more after 27 years digesting what is factually known. The Grand Jury didn't believe them and chose to indict. Everytime you post about LE, you post as though there were only 2 cops on the case. It was a case that garnered world wide attention. Many LE were involved and the amount of man hours put into this case were astronomical. The mistakes made by law enforcement were mostly driven by a kidnapping narrative and the Ramsey's doing everything to convolute the crime scene. Everything they did worked against ever getting the case solved. JR became dumber than a rock that morning but was bright enough to run a multi million dollar company with government contracts and you are going to tell me this bright man didn't look for his daughter? He didn't look for his own daughter but the police were inept and myopic? Please don't use the poor excuse that he was in shock. He was on the phone planning, arranging, talking to attorneys, pilots ect but had to be told to look around his own home. For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would think anything was strange here ( sarcasm) or why the police looked at them with disbelief. You can explain away a few things in the Ramseys favor due to emotional distress but the majority of what the Ramseys did, their own behavior created suspicion. Why are you asking the police to keep looking the other way. It is not hard to know what one would do in that situation. That's a very convenient excuse. When your child is missing, you look for them. That RN reads like a creative writing story. That alone should have created enough doubt to make them wake BR and ask if it was a joke, or did he know where his sister is, were they hiding last night ect but JR did not grow a brain that morning. He seemed to drop several IQ points when it came to doing anything proactive to look for her. It is clear to most why their actions and story felt grossly insincere. But no one was supposed to notice and unfairly look at them. SMH as I recall every inconsistency.
 
Incorrect perceptions can lead one astray. One has to be careful. There was a fixation on the parents that led to leaking of information to put pressure on them to talk. Which is a strange way to conduct an investigation. LA didn't say exactly what sort of look JR gave. Which is not evidence of any sort anyway. She must've reacted to the surprise find of JB. After PR found the RN I imagine there was an urgency of the R's to call the cops before a search could be completed of that big house..maybe they were convinced she was gone. Another person might want to know where an intruder could have gotten in. Hard to know what someone would do in that situation.
A good investigator uses a set of skills that includes their own gut feelings and perceptions based upon careful observation.There was a lot going on that morning at the R house that simply did not add up. Did the police make some mistakes? Yes. In the grand scheme of things I think that can probably be said about most similar investigations. Police after all, despite training are human beings. What police were faced with that morning was initially a kidnapping, and Linda Arndt walked into a scene that had already been compromised by the actions of the R's, who had invited a plethora of friends and associates into the house who were milling about, cleaning up and contaminating everything.

I also have to concur with Ispy here, in it being absolutely suspicious that the R's did not conduct a complete and thorough search of that house to try and find their daughter. Calling 911 is just a step in the process and should not have stopped them from looking into every nook and cranny. Their reaction to the ridiculous RN has always puzzled me and strikes me as suspicious. They were supposedly so invested in believing that their daughter had been kidnapped that it prevented them from doing a thorough search, and yet disregarded all the warnings the note included about what not to do.....like calling the police. Instead they called the police and then invited half the neighborhood over, creating a scene full of people and activity that surely any "foreign faction" that was watching them would be aware of, putting their daughter at risk of being killed.

We must also remember that once this case morphed from a kidnapping into a murder, with the body of the child being found in the home, the parents / family is always going to be the first suspects for the police to investigate, especially since there really were no signs of a break-in and an intruder. And again, the RN comes into play here in its sheer bizzarness. The R's then went on to pronounce that they had been interviewed for 8 hours that day, and an additional 2 hours the next day, which simply is not true. They answered some questions throughout the time they were present at the scene along with police, which would be normal. That does not equate to an 8 hour interview. By the end of that day, they were lawyered up. They also claimed that they understood that they would be suspect. JR kept saying it out of one side of his mouth and then complaining that anyone would suspect them out of the other side of his mouth, throwing in that police were out to get them and not looking at anyone else. This again is not remotely true, it's twisting the truth to suit his specific purpose of avoiding the facts and maligning the ongoing investigation. Of course the family has to be thoroughly investigated and cleared for the investigation to then widen. The familiar R cry of "we're cooperating" was a smoke screen. Yes, they gave blood samples, handwriting samples, DNA, etc. because they HAD to....that's something they couldn't control. But all the roadblocks began to go up by the end of that first day, and they did not sit for interviews for another four months. Just think about that.....when the first 48 hours after a crime are so very important to gather clues, evidence and witness interviews, to find the killer of their own daughter, and they refused to cooperate. They chose instead to give a televised interview in order to gain sympathy. They wasted valuable time hiding behind their team of high priced lawyers and PR people and throwing out smokescreens about how they were unjustly being targeted by police, oh but they were cooperating! When those interviews finally did happen, it's no wonder so many answers by that time were "I don't remember", "I can't recall". They insisted upon being given copies of the RN, copies of everything they had said to police up to that point, those were just some of the demands to agree to be interviewed. It was unprecedented. Who else would be afforded those concessions? But had the police not agreed, they would never have been able to interview the R's. Oh, but we're cooperating!!

During this time, despite the BS narrative being pushed by the R's and team R, the police did investigate other people, other leads. The R's had given them a long list of people they felt should be looked at, and LE performed due diligence in doing so. Some people's lives were ruined because of the scrutiny under which they were placed. But the fact remains.....until such time as the R's really cooperate and sit for interviews they could not be ruled out. So yes, they remained under the umbrella of suspicion due to their own actions, their steadfast refusal to not fully cooperate. During this time, it was the DA's office who was responsible for much of the leaking that was going on. DA Hunter and his office engaged in a very calculated effort to not only handcuff the PD's efforts to properly investigate this case, but also to publicly cast doubt on their reputation(s). DA Hunter was in contact with a tabloid reporter on almost a daily basis feeding him information about the case and enlisting this reporter to publish negative stories about certain investigators. This is all on record and is factual. The actions of the DA and his office were why more than one investigator not only quit this case but quit the force, giving up their careers after being maligned and attacked by the DA. Again, unprecedented.

To describe the police as being "myopic" is again not factual, it's R Team spin. The need to focus on the family and rule them out is not unusual nor was it unfairly targeting them. It had to happen. And if they were innocent they should have fully cooperated from the very first moments as this case unfolded. As uncomfortable and excruciatingly painful as it is, innocent people allow themselves to be investigated to the full degree necessary in order to be ruled out so that the investigation can focus its efforts elsewhere. Look at Mark Klaas. He truly understood this and cooperated. And the true perpetrator of his daughter's killer was found. You don't go on a publicity campaign paying lip service to this and disparage the very people who are trying to find your daughter's killer if you are truly invested in finding the truth. Team R hired their own investigators by 12/27/96, supposedly to "assist" the police whom they had already concluded with no evidence of why, were both incompetent and targeting them. It's on record that the private PI team in some instances beat the police to talking to potential witnesses, but weren't sharing information. Interesting that some witnesses told different stories to police than what they said to the private PI's. Melody Stanton, who heard the scream that night and described it as clearly being that of a child's, ended up questioning her own recollection. That is rather suspicious in my book.

The video I posted above takes many of the R team talking points one by one and shows the dishonesty. It's factual and eye opening. Again, if you are truly interested in this case and its truths, I highly recommend watching it. The highly respected investigator and former police officer H. Ellis Armistead was hired by the R's to investigate for them. He ended up resigning and although he has not shared any details, he did at one point say that the intruder theory just doesn't add up. Lou Smit also was not able to solve this case, hanging his hat on a theory that other investigators, the police and a Grand Jury agreed "just doesn't add up". So much of what he came up with has been debunked and explained, and yet he continued to echo the R's claims that no one is looking seriously at the IDI theory. If that were true, then how is it that so much of that theory has been debunked? Because it was investigated and explained. If anyone is guilty of myopia, it's Mr. Smit who became so imbedded with the R's that he lost his ability to remain objective. I think it's also a rather telling side note that as time went on, the majority of the close knit circle of Boulder friends began to fracture away from the R's as they were thrown under the bus of suspicion by the R's, and also began to recognize that the lack of cooperation with the investigation and the PR machine that was churning out misinformation about the investigation and the investigators was not in line with how innocent people should behave. The police were appropriately investigating them. The narrative of being falsely targeted is just that....a narrative put out by a highly paid PR team created for the sole purpose of creating doubt about the investigation and proclaiming the R's innocence without real evidence to prove that narrative. Smoke and mirrors.
 
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I would add one other observation. I completely understand how difficult it is to believe that a parent could be involved in harming their own child, in particular in such horrific ways. But it does happen. My own personal opinion in this case is that it was an accident. Why they felt they needed to cover it up is anyone's guess, I cannot pretend to know what was going through their minds. Hiring lawyers would not erase the stigma that would have come with admitting that someone within that house killed JBR, even if accidental. If it were BR, and this is of course only supposition, he would forever be known as the kid who killed his little sister, whether accidental or not. From the outside looking in, the R's presented a face of perfection that we now know was far from the truth. And yet that was a facade they clung to with ferocity. Two children with bed wetting issues, one with a scatolia issue, one with anger issues. A house made perfect for show but one that behind the scenes was chaotic and messy, PR could not keep up with housekeeping even with hired help. There was dysfunction in this family, and there was possible abuse going on. When you pull back the carefully curated curtain, the dysfunction is hard to miss.

I think it's normal to not want to believe that parents were involved in harming their child. But to then jump to them being innocent because it's difficult to fathom is not doing justice to the little girl whose life was taken. She is the victim, and in order for whoever perpetrated this crime to be found and justice done, the parents have to be looked at and scrutinized.
 
I would add one other observation. I completely understand how difficult it is to believe that a parent could be involved in harming their own child, in particular in such horrific ways. But it does happen. My own personal opinion in this case is that it was an accident. Why they felt they needed to cover it up is anyone's guess, I cannot pretend to know what was going through their minds. Hiring lawyers would not erase the stigma that would have come with admitting that someone within that house killed JBR, even if accidental. If it were BR, and this is of course only supposition, he would forever be known as the kid who killed his little sister, whether accidental or not. From the outside looking in, the R's presented a face of perfection that we now know was far from the truth. And yet that was a facade they clung to with ferocity. Two children with bed wetting issues, one with a scatolia issue, one with anger issues. A house made perfect for show but one that behind the scenes was chaotic and messy, PR could not keep up with housekeeping even with hired help. There was dysfunction in this family, and there was possible abuse going on. When you pull back the carefully curated curtain, the dysfunction is hard to miss.

I think it's normal to not want to believe that parents were involved in harming their child. But to then jump to them being innocent because it's difficult to fathom is not doing justice to the little girl whose life was taken. She is the victim, and in order for whoever perpetrated this crime to be found and justice done, the parents have to be looked at and scrutinized.
I agree with all of this. However JR is still pushing for JB killer to be caught. If it was PR, she has past on, and if it was him he's not in jail. Why not just fade away if they got away with it. Why keep pushing unless you have to keep up appearances because it was BR. JMO
 
I agree with all of this. However JR is still pushing for JB killer to be caught. If it was PR, she has past on, and if it was him he's not in jail. Why not just fade away if they got away with it. Why keep pushing unless you have to keep up appearances because it was BR. JMO
I have asked myself this question too. Of course, only the R's know the answer. It is interesting to me though, that even with the passage of so much time and the ability for retrospect, there is still such contentiousness on the part of the surviving R's that speak out. JR has never admitted that maybe he / they could have / should have handled things differently. He still looks at it like a witch hunt and is still pushing the narrative that they cooperated fully. He still blames the police department. Public perception has pretty much leaned towards believing that the parents / family were involved to this day. Perhaps there is bitterness that they were not believed and that they lost their place in society and the life they were leading, just speculation of course. I am still mystified by their actions at the time and how tone deaf they seemed to be about how they were perceived.

BR lives a very private, low key life. By all accounts he works from his home and has a small circle of friends. He has never married. His parents kind of put him in a cocoon of protection after JBR's murder, which while I can understand certainly has done nothing to stop the speculation and has left him with a very pronounced social awkwardness. When the CBS special was about to air, where it was speculated that he was the killer, the decision was made (and likely not by him) to give that interview to Dr. Phil, which was fairly disastrous and again did nothing to squelch the speculation that he did it. My opinion is that he is fairly content with his life, no one really bothers him and by his own admission does not seek out stories that be still be circulating about him. He / they sued CBS and won. It's a valid question then as to why JR and at times JAR keep pushing.
 
I have asked myself this question too. Of course, only the R's know the answer. It is interesting to me though, that even with the passage of so much time and the ability for retrospect, there is still such contentiousness on the part of the surviving R's that speak out. JR has never admitted that maybe he / they could have / should have handled things differently. He still looks at it like a witch hunt and is still pushing the narrative that they cooperated fully. He still blames the police department. Public perception has pretty much leaned towards believing that the parents / family were involved to this day. Perhaps there is bitterness that they were not believed and that they lost their place in society and the life they were leading, just speculation of course. I am still mystified by their actions at the time and how tone deaf they seemed to be about how they were perceived.

BR lives a very private, low key life. By all accounts he works from his home and has a small circle of friends. He has never married. His parents kind of put him in a cocoon of protection after JBR's murder, which while I can understand certainly has done nothing to stop the speculation and has left him with a very pronounced social awkwardness. When the CBS special was about to air, where it was speculated that he was the killer, the decision was made (and likely not by him) to give that interview to Dr. Phil, which was fairly disastrous and again did nothing to squelch the speculation that he did it. My opinion is that he is fairly content with his life, no one really bothers him and by his own admission does not seek out stories that be still be circulating about him. He / they sued CBS and won. It's a valid question then as to why JR and at times JAR keep

I have asked myself this question too. Of course, only the R's know the answer. It is interesting to me though, that even with the passage of so much time and the ability for retrospect, there is still such contentiousness on the part of the surviving R's that speak out. JR has never admitted that maybe he / they could have / should have handled things differently. He still looks at it like a witch hunt and is still pushing the narrative that they cooperated fully. He still blames the police department. Public perception has pretty much leaned towards believing that the parents / family were involved to this day. Perhaps there is bitterness that they were not believed and that they lost their place in society and the life they were leading, just speculation of course. I am still mystified by their actions at the time and how tone deaf they seemed to be about how they were perceived.

BR lives a very private, low key life. By all accounts he works from his home and has a small circle of friends. He has never married. His parents kind of put him in a cocoon of protection after JBR's murder, which while I can understand certainly has done nothing to stop the speculation and has left him with a very pronounced social awkwardness. When the CBS special was about to air, where it was speculated that he was the killer, the decision was made (and likely not by him) to give that interview to Dr. Phil, which was fairly disastrous and again did nothing to squelch the speculation that he did it. My opinion is that he is fairly content with his life, no one really bothers him and by his own admission does not seek out stories that be still be circulating about him. He / they sued CBS and won. It's a valid question then as to why JR and at times JAR keep pushing.
I am glad he lives a private life. I don't feel he did it, just that it is possible. I have always honestly thought PR was the perpetrator. I have never believed an outsider was responsible. I have read many things and had personal experience with horrible mothers. They can be a child's worst nightmare. Not that father's can't be horrible, but mother's hormones can cause some real horrible mood swings and almost torturous behavior. If this makes sense.
 
I have asked myself this question too. Of course, only the R's know the answer. It is interesting to me though, that even with the passage of so much time and the ability for retrospect, there is still such contentiousness on the part of the surviving R's that speak out. JR has never admitted that maybe he / they could have / should have handled things differently. He still looks at it like a witch hunt and is still pushing the narrative that they cooperated fully. He still blames the police department. Public perception has pretty much leaned towards believing that the parents / family were involved to this day. Perhaps there is bitterness that they were not believed and that they lost their place in society and the life they were leading, just speculation of course. I am still mystified by their actions at the time and how tone deaf they seemed to be about how they were perceived.

BR lives a very private, low key life. By all accounts he works from his home and has a small circle of friends. He has never married. His parents kind of put him in a cocoon of protection after JBR's murder, which while I can understand certainly has done nothing to stop the speculation and has left him with a very pronounced social awkwardness. When the CBS special was about to air, where it was speculated that he was the killer, the decision was made (and likely not by him) to give that interview to Dr. Phil, which was fairly disastrous and again did nothing to squelch the speculation that he did it. My opinion is that he is fairly content with his life, no one really bothers him and by his own admission does not seek out stories that be still be circulating about him. He / they sued CBS and won. It's a valid question then as to why JR and at times JAR keep pushing.

My personal opinion on this matter is that the Ramseys had help. 27 years later the evidence against an intruder and the indicators that the Ramseys were involved increased tenfold due to very brilliant folks debunking their story, famous detectives, Pathologists, investigators, folks on forums such as this and YouTube creators like True Crime Rocket Science who dissect and debunk the majority of the Ramseys story with logic and fact. The internet has not been a friend to the Ramseys. Their spin tactics could not compete with the information made available to the masses. It is important to keep the narrative going. Should it be any of the remaining Ramseys, the answer is obvious. The scrutiny of their story is never going to go away. If they had help from higher up officials to cover up what happened, those peoples reputations will be forever and permanently damaged for covering up the murder of a little girl who to this day is known around the world. It has nothing to do with sincerely finding JBRs killer.
 
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My personal opinion on this matter is that the Ramseys had help. 27 years later the evidence against an intruder and the indicators that the Ramseys were involved increased tenfold due to very brilliant folks debunking their story, some of them on forums such as this and YouTube creators like True Crime Rocket Science who dissect and debunk the majority of the Ramseys story with logic and fact. The internet has not been a friend to the Ramseys. There spin tactics could not compete with the information made available to the masses. It is important to keep the narrative going. Should it be any of the remaining Ramseys, the answer is obvious. The scrutiny of their story is never going to go away. If they had help from higher up officials to cover up what happened, those peoples reputations will be forever and permanently damaged for covering up the murder of a little girl who to this day is known around the world.
Oh, I definitely agree.....that is my opinion too, that they had help. And I too hope that one day, the truth comes out about who was involved and what was done to help cover up what happened. And that whomever was involved faces some accountability.
 
I am glad he lives a private life. I don't feel he did it, just that it is possible. I have always honestly thought PR was the perpetrator. I have never believed an outsider was responsible. I have read many things and had personal experience with horrible mothers. They can be a child's worst nightmare. Not that father's can't be horrible, but mother's hormones can cause some real horrible mood swings and almost torturous behavior. If this makes sense.
I will add, that if BR was responsible, he was made to live a lie. He did not have control over his own narrative as a child and with the layers of cover up, I don't believe he would have that choice now.
I have a lot of empathy for BR.
 
I agree with all of this. However JR is still pushing for JB killer to be caught. If it was PR, she has past on, and if it was him he's not in jail. Why not just fade away if they got away with it. Why keep pushing unless you have to keep up appearances because it was BR. JMO

The Rams maintained from the beginning that an intruder killed JBR. If one of the parents was responsible, JR may feel he has to to keep spinning the IDI story to shield the rest of his children from the truth, not BR alone, and at least make a show of pursuing justice. I'm cynical enough to think he may just do TV appearances for the money, or to add to his "innocence portfolio" in case he's ever arrested. If the DNA testing goes nowhere, latent suspicions will surge again.

The Ramsey house is still a mess.
 
Just a random observation, some wealthy families skip cleaning services if they don't want visitors, or are experiencing a time of stress in their collective lives.

The messy house might just be that, the house was a mess, and then the murder occurred.
 

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