Was there more than one shirt?

[Valhall]

There was no soft tissue on any of the remains.

Right, we know that. We're speaking of DURING the decomposition process...not at the time the remains were found.

 

[Harmony 2]

Regarding the red fibers.......have we seen a description of the stuffed animals that CA disgarded because they "smelled like smoke"?? I wonder if one had the red fibers we are discussing. Perhaps in the form of a "tshirt" on a stuffed animal or somethig similar? I need to find that photo of her collection of stuffed animals and then see which ones are unaccounted for. Perhaps one of those stuffed animals that KW found in a bag that CA "had never seen before" ?

I wasn't sure where to post this. (Mods please move if not the appropriate thread.)
(responding to the BBM)
Re: the red fibers

A Taz stuffed animal was found down the street from the Anthony's home. JT says Caylee chose a beanie baby at his store when she was there. Regarding the red fibers I wonder if the Taz beanie baby found by the Anthony's was holding a heart like this one:

 

[sleutherontheside]

Right, but submerged it would take longer for the total dissipation of organs.

But that aside, I'm trying to follow how the ribs and scapula can still be held together, but the muscles of the neck not also hold that area. We've got pretty strong muscles in our neck.

I almost hesitate to throw this out there because I have not thoroughly studied the crime scene maps. I wonder if the reason for the ribs and scapula to remain together and dragged to another location "could" be attributed to the bag having water in it (rainfall etc....prior to flooding) thus
weighting it down > only a portion of the body being exposed due to rips in the plastic from initial animal activity > the exposed portion being disarticulated > and the remaining portion being restrained by the confines of the plastic bag.

 

[Valhall]

Do you guys recall, just after they found the remains, there were rumors about the clothes? I know one rumor was that there were no clothes, but another, if I'm recalling correctly, was that she wasn't clothed.

Does anyone else recall that last one?

 

[cecybeans]

Do you guys recall, just after they found the remains, there were rumors about the clothes? I know one rumor was that there were no clothes, but another, if I'm recalling correctly, was that she wasn't clothed.

Does anyone else recall that last one?

Yes I remember, because it caused people to speculate maybe she had been in the pool and KC took her wet swimsuit off.

 

[Valhall]

Yes I remember, because it caused people to speculate maybe she had been in the pool and KC took her wet swimsuit off.

Thanks. The reason I'm asking is that, of course, there is no shirt (no whole shirt), but the shorts are virtually intact.

I don't think those shorts were on her. I can't see how they would have weathered as well as they did if they had been. I've got a feeling they were protected down in the bottom of the plastic bags.

 

[cecybeans]

When my daughter was that age, I often brought a second tee-shirt along in the car simply because she often spilled juice down the front of the one she was wearing. The fact that the collar on the "trouble" shirt was buttoned or closed sounds to me like it could have been the "clean one" and that the collar was that way from being folded from the dryer.

JT said, in his reply on davemarinade, that she looked mismatched that afternoon at WalMart, that he remembers white shoes of some kind, maybe sneakers. He also mentioned she looked very hot and sweaty and very frustrated, and that KC did not. (The fact he notices shoes - when we assumed the lack of them at the crime scene meant she may have left the house barefoot - would now seem significant as well).

I wonder if, earlier, KC had kept Caylee in the car while she spoke on her cellphone outside the car (and didn't want to hear an upset toddler crying or wanting to get out of her seat) and that's why she was hot and sweaty. KC's foray into WalMart may have been her last stop before going to Tony's.

A bit OT, but my daughter at that age was famous for stripping when she got hot and would rip all her clothes off when she got home from daycare (we lived in FL then so I didn't blame her) and run around playing before dinner in her underwear and the pinafore to a huge Raggedy Ann doll she had. I stopped paying attention to it until one afternoon the doorbell rang and I, not thinking, answered it and there was a young guy from some religious group soliciting members. My daughter ran out of her room and popped up in back of me and I was horrified - the look on his face plainly suggested he thought I was running some kind of kiddie *advertiser censored* thing. Seems silly, but it is still a vivid memory and made me much more careful about "after school attire".

If Caylee was hot when she got into the car, she may have taken off her shoes at the very least and even her shirt.

I've always wondered where the shoes ended up and any other clothing that KC may have been referring to. It strikes me she could have tried to plant them after the fact at JG's or another location to implicate someone else.

She may have put them at JBP, originally planning to dump her there because of the jogger's body the week before and, if the actual plan to carry her into the woods didn't work, she still felt that the presence of Caylee's clothes at JBP would cause LE to think Caylee had been abducted there.

Also, since the matching shorts to the tee-shirt have a purple stripe, could that be the piece to which LE is referring?

I don't remember if there was a time stamp on the KC/Caylee video with the purple shirt and striped shorts, but will attempt to look. The size of Caylee certainly looks consistent with her Father's Day video. Also, momtective may know the date stamp. She was the one who originally uploaded it and created the final youtube file, IIRC.

 

[cecybeans]

Thanks. The reason I'm asking is that, of course, there is no shirt (no whole shirt), but the shorts are virtually intact.

I don't think those shorts were on her. I can't see how they would have weathered as well as they did if they had been. I've got a feeling they were protected down in the bottom of the plastic bags.

I agree. I'd bet they would be more likely to weather not only the storms that way but scavenging animals would attack the upper torso first, I'd think and the bag would have lasted longer lower down.

 

[capps]

When my daughter was that age, I often brought a second tee-shirt along in the car simply because she often spilled juice down the front of the one she was wearing. The fact that the collar on the "trouble" shirt was buttoned or closed sounds to me like it could have been the "clean one" and that the collar was that way from being folded from the dryer.

JT said, in his reply on davemarinade, that she looked mismatched that afternoon at WalMart, that he remembers white shoes of some kind, maybe sneakers. He also mentioned she looked very hot and sweaty and very frustrated, and that KC did not. (The fact he notices shoes - when we assumed the lack of them at the crime scene meant she may have left the house barefoot - would now seem significant as well).

I wonder if, earlier, KC had kept Caylee in the car while she spoke on her cellphone outside the car (and didn't want to hear an upset toddler crying or wanting to get out of her seat) and that's why she was hot and sweaty. KC's foray into WalMart may have been her last stop before going to Tony's.

A bit OT, but my daughter at that age was famous for stripping when she got hot and would rip all her clothes off when she got home from daycare (we lived in FL then so I didn't blame her) and run around playing before dinner in her underwear and the pinafore to a huge Raggedy Ann doll she had. I stopped paying attention to it until one afternoon the doorbell rang and I, not thinking, answered it and there was a young guy from some religious group soliciting members. My daughter ran out of her room and popped up in back of me and I was horrified - the look on his face plainly suggested he thought I was running some kind of kiddie *advertiser censored* thing. Seems silly, but it is still a vivid memory and made me much more careful about "after school attire".

If Caylee was hot when she got into the car, she may have taken off her shoes at the very least and even her shirt.

I've always wondered where the shoes ended up and any other clothing that KC may have been referring to. It strikes me she could have tried to plant them after the fact at JG's or another location to implicate someone else.

She may have put them at JBP, originally planning to dump her there because of the jogger's body the week before and, if the actual plan to carry her into the woods didn't work, she still felt that the presence of Caylee's clothes at JBP would cause LE to think Caylee had been abducted there.

Also, since the matching shorts to the tee-shirt have a purple stripe, could that be the piece to which LE is referring?

I don't remember if there was a time stamp on the KC/Caylee video with the purple shirt and striped shorts, but will attempt to look. The size of Caylee certainly looks consistent with her Father's Day video. Also, momtective may know the date stamp. She was the one who originally uploaded it and created the final youtube file, IIRC.

BBM...that's an interesting theory. Maybe that would apply to KC's statement of "they haven't even found her clothes yet." Instead of shoes she said clothes,because she didn't want to sound too specific? Food for thought...yes?

 

[icherish]

I don't feel that a lack of destruction of the shorts is necessarily indicative that they were not worn by Caylee at the time she was left on Suburban. The shorts in question are heavily soiled and appear to be made of sturdier material (looks to be a lightweight denim type material) than the remains of the cotton t-shirt depicted in the crime scene photos. Scavengers are primarily attracted to the upper portion of remains, as these areas are more nutritious. That in itself explains why not much of the tshirt was left. I believe the shorts were probably on the body, and simply slipped off the bones intact as decomposition and disarticulation of the skeleton progressed. (hurts to type this stuff)

As for Casey's statement "they haven't even found the clothes yet"...it's possible (I think very likely) that Casey visited the dump site during the last of those 31 days and saw her baby's clothes strewn about. Sick, sick, sick...:sick:

Just my :twocents:

 

[Friday]

Regarding the red fibers.......have we seen a description of the stuffed animals that CA disgarded because they "smelled like smoke"?? I wonder if one had the red fibers we are discussing. Perhaps in the form of a "tshirt" on a stuffed animal or somethig similar? I need to find that photo of her collection of stuffed animals and then see which ones are unaccounted for. Perhaps one of those stuffed animals that KW found in a bag that CA "had never seen before" ?

OMG, it never dawned on me that the Anthonys might have cleverly disposed of incriminating evidence on some of Caylee's clothes or belongings by placing them onto or with that first hugh pile of stuffed animals and dolls they claimed to have thrown away "because they stank of cigarette smoke." Besides the fact that didn't seem likely, I could never figure out why Lee wanted to publicly announce what they'd done and thereby iinsult all the well-meaning donors (not to mention charitable organizations that would have been happy to have the items.)

 

[wonders]

I hope I'm not off topic here.
Regarding the no shoes found. I wonder if CA removed them from the car when she was doing the "cleaning out of the car". I also wonder if she could have thrown them away because of the "oder" on them. Only God knows what was in that car before CA got to it. She may have thrown a boat load of evidence in the garbage. Lord knows she, KC and the rest of the A's are never going to spill the beans. KWIM. What a terrible shame.

 

[Jolynna]

I hope I'm not off topic here.
Regarding the no shoes found. I wonder if CA removed them from the car when she was doing the "cleaning out of the car". I also wonder if she could have thrown them away because of the "oder" on them. Only God knows what was in that car before CA got to it. She may have thrown a boat load of evidence in the garbage. Lord knows she, KC and the rest of the A's are never going to spill the beans. KWIM. What a terrible shame.

KC kept the car seat and the diaper bag in her car. The napkins covered with maggots were still in KC's car. Gum packages, a dinner knife and stinky pants were still in the car. Why would KC throw away Caylee's shoes?

 

[Whisperer]

I thought the dinner knife (could be steak knife) was in the car, removed and washed by CA. She took a bunch of stuff and assembled them in a bag later for detectives...how thoughtful of her.

I thought perhaps it was a steak knife as I have a set in stainless that almost matches my flatware. You can't tell them apart. I bet the duct tape was in the car also as kc may have used the steaknife and tape in the car.

You can bet your bippy that CA went through the stuff with a fine tooth comb.

I don't know why kc or CA would throw away shoes but she may have had a good reason. Caylee may not have been wearing any and if she was CA would have tossed them if they were still in the car.

 

[sleutherontheside]

Thanks. The reason I'm asking is that, of course, there is no shirt (no whole shirt), but the shorts are virtually intact.

I don't think those shorts were on her. I can't see how they would have weathered as well as they did if they had been. I've got a feeling they were protected down in the bottom of the plastic bags.

Perhaps the super absorbent pull up may be a factor. If anyone has ever seen one totally saturated you know that the outside remains relatively dry. Perhaps fluids that would contribute to the cotton degradation of a t-shirt, would be "contained" more in the shorts region of the body due to the pull up. Animals are attracted to biological fluids. If those shorts contained a soaked pull up, I would think that the animals would drag that away and pick it apart leaving the shorts virtually untouched.

 

[MomofBoys]

I wonder, then, if there would be teeth marks present. Fine holes that would indicate an animal trying to extricate the pullup from the shorts. Because a pullup would absolutely get incredibly saturated and HUGE (I accidentally put a clean diaper through the washer once and OMG) and then make the shorts almost one with the diaper it'd be so tight. At least at first. I find it hard to picture animals tearing up the diaper and leaving the shorts relatively untouched. But after some time in the woods, the body would have skeletonized and allowed the animals to pull the pullout through the top, wide part of the shorts.

Of course, after that much time, swamp water would have diluted a lot of the body fluids, I would guess. Either way, yeah, the diaper would be a bigger draw than the shorts. I just can't picture the shorts not getting ripped to shreds in the process.

 

[MD MOMMY]

I thought the dinner knife (could be steak knife) was in the car, removed and washed by CA. She took a bunch of stuff and assembled them in a bag later for detectives...how thoughtful of her.

I thought perhaps it was a steak knife as I have a set in stainless that almost matches my flatware. You can't tell them apart. I bet the duct tape was in the car also as kc may have used the steaknife and tape in the car.

You can bet your bippy that CA went through the stuff with a fine tooth comb.

I don't know why kc or CA would throw away shoes but she may have had a good reason. Caylee may not have been wearing any and if she was CA would have tossed them if they were still in the car.

The knife is in the document dump. It is a butter knife, but is rather pointy at the top and sharper looking to me than my butter knives.

 

[Just Jayla]

One of the reasons the investigators know that Caylee was disposed of on Suburban shortly after death is because the scapula and ribs and vertabrae were still held together by sinew and remaining flesh. There was enough tissue & sinew left that a portion of Caylee could be torn off by an animal as a chunk drug to another location leaving other parts of the body at the disposal site. Like on TLC when lions tear off and drag away portions of the Zebra in chunks. (sorry)

Outside with the bugs and animals, in a tropical climate, Caylee would be reduced to bones within two weeks. (According to Dr. Michael Baden.) From that point on, animals couldn't drag whole chunks of body, it would have to be a bone at a time.

MOO

But I think the question is, and especially if there was any connective tissue, why didn't the head go with the remainder of the body if an animal dragged it away? Is there very little connective tissue in the neck and spine, or was Caylee's neck broken before or after death?

 

[Just Jayla]

Ah, Valhall's theory makes sense on this...

 

[TakeNote]

the white cloth with the purple strip.....

could have come from doll clothes or something like that......i know LE took stuff like that from the A's if im remember right.....im trying to think if a toy like my little pony would come with a small blanket for the pony......little toys like that can come with a tiny blanket and comb or brush.....could it be something like that?

sorry....but i have trouble opening all the doc dump....so i have not seen the pics of the clothes or cloth that was found.....

add: can someone post the pic of the cloth and shirt/shorts