Wecht vs. Lee

[Solace]

SuperDave: What I cannot understand is how no-one heard anything. John says he took a melatonin and Berke's bed was on the other side of the house, so that is why I guess. But in thinking about this last night, JB was not handled lightly and this accident that I believe it to be would be called one of complete disregard. I forget the legal term. It turns into premeditation with the last strangulation.

Patsy had to be literally throwing her around. But again, I never read anything about the soiled jeans. I hope we can find out where that is written. Thanks SuperDave.

 

[BBB167893]

SuperDave: What I cannot understand is how no-one heard anything. John says he took a melatonin and Berke's bed was on the other side of the house, so that is why I guess. But in thinking about this last night, JB was not handled lightly and this accident that I believe it to be would be called one of complete disregard. I forget the legal term. It turns into premeditation with the last strangulation.

Patsy had to be literally throwing her around. But again, I never read anything about the soiled jeans. I hope we can find out where that is written. Thanks SuperDave.

I believe the term is "reckless endangerment" or "reckless disregard for human life" which could net manslaughter. Maybe even 2nd degree homicide: "Depraved indifference to human life." As for premeditiation, I'm afraid not. Legally, you cannot murder someone you think is already dead. You lack the mens rea the intent to kill.

 

[Britt]

The source for the soiled jeans on the bathroom floor is the 1998 interviews, for one... there may be others, though I don't recall if it's mentioned in Thomas's or Schiller's books.

http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=692485&highlight=bathroom+inside+1998#post692485

There's more info on that previous thread.

 

[Solace]

I believe the term is "reckless endangerment" or "reckless disregard for human life" which could net manslaughter. Maybe even 2nd degree homicide: "Depraved indifference to human life." As for premeditiation, I'm afraid not. Legally, you cannot murder someone you think is already dead. You lack the mens rea the intent to kill.

I am not sure she thought she was already dead, but definitely wanted to make sure she was. And again, here I go when I write this stuff, Patsy really wanted to make sure her daughter was dead?????

But then as I second-guess, I think about the handwriting and I am back to believing she did it again. It is just when you actually picture her doing this to JB, it is out of the realm.

 

[BBB167893]

Britt, that's good enough for me!

I am not sure she thought she was already dead, but definitely wanted to make sure she was. And again, here I go when I write this stuff, Patsy really wanted to make sure her daughter was dead?????

But then as I second-guess, I think about the handwriting and I am back to believing she did it again. It is just when you actually picture her doing this to JB, it is out of the realm.

Not to me. I can visualize all of it. And I think she thought JB was dead already.

 

[Solace]

Britt, that's good enough for me!



Not to me. I can visualize all of it. And I think she thought JB was dead already.

SuperDave: So you think this all happened in the bathroom? Tell me what you think happened, please. Thanks, Solace

 

[BBB167893]

Solace, I don't know. I wish I could be sure. But, yes, it makes sense to me that it did.

Just spitballing: JB eats some pineapple, goes to bed, gets up to go to the toidy, doesn't make it. Patsy, stressed beyond her limit, cleans her up, but she's too rough. JB cries out in pain and Patsy tells her to shut up and stop squirming, gripping the shirt to hold her still. It does, sadly. Patsy thinks she's faking it, hits her, and it goes to hell from there.

 

[rashomon]

Solace, I don't know. I wish I could be sure. But, yes, it makes sense to me that it did.

Just spitballing: JB eats some pineapple, goes to bed, gets up to go to the toidy, doesn't make it. Patsy, stressed beyond her limit, cleans her up, but she's too rough. JB cries out in pain and Patsy tells her to shut up and stop squirming, gripping the shirt to hold her still. It does, sadly. Patsy thinks she's faking it, hits her, and it goes to hell from there.

Very likely scenario imo, and which would also be consistent with Dr. Meyer's findings in the autopsy report.
I believe an enraged Patsy yanked JB around and her head hit a hard object which cracked the skull.

On the other hand, why were there no fingerprints on the flashlight, not even on the batteries? Could the flashlight have been used in the staging process, in the cellar maybe because the Ramseys did not want to put the lights on?

 

[UKGuy]

Very likely scenario imo, and which would also be consistent with Dr. Meyer's findings in the autopsy report.
I believe an enraged Patsy yanked JB around and her head hit a hard object which cracked the skull.

On the other hand, why were there no fingerprints on the flashlight, not even on the batteries? Could the flashlight have been used in the staging process, in the cellar maybe because the Ramseys did not want to put the lights on?

rashomon,

Possibly, but who would see the lights in the basement, who is there to see the lights?

Why does it matter, its the Ramsey house, not some other house?

I think from the forensic evidence that its safe to assume the use of the flashlight was premeditated and pre-planned!

This maybe rules out any ad-hoc staging?

Why is all this staging required for an accident, if it was an accident why not leave it as such, dial 911 and say my daughter fell off the ** hitting her head, whatever?

.

 

[sissi]

Ah, this is one of the factors that made me consider the Ramseys innocent.
The unusual lights, the possible unscrewing of the outdoor light, point away from the parents. No one needs to play with flashlights in their own home, they would be perfectly comfortable with normal lighting.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

Perhaps parents wouldn't be comfortable turning on lights very late at night in their own home if a fatal accident had just occurred and they were trying to cover it up and didn't want to draw any extra attention by having lights fully on when everyone should be asleep. Lights on would be much more noticeable to anyone going by, and people usually spend Christmas night out late visiting friends and family. It would feel a lot more comfortable to one sneaking around doing something they know is wrong if they had a flashlight, even in their own home.

 

[rashomon]

rashomon,
Possibly, but who would see the lights in the basement, who is there to see the lights?
Why does it matter, its the Ramsey house, not some other house?

I think they did not want to put lights on anywhere in the house, just like Nuisanceposter said:

Perhaps parents wouldn't be comfortable turning on lights very late at night in their own home if a fatal accident had just occurred and they were trying to cover it up and didn't want to draw any extra attention by having lights fully on when everyone should be asleep. Lights on would be much more noticeable to anyone going by, and people usually spend Christmas night out late visiting friends and family. It would feel a lot more comfortable to one sneaking around doing something they know is wrong if they had a flashlight, even in their own home.

(UKGuy)I think from the forensic evidence that its safe to assume the use of the flashlight was premeditated and pre-planned!

I don't think anything was premeditated and planned. Whoever used the flashlight obviously wiped it clean afterwards, that's all.

(UKGuy)Why is all this staging required for an accident, if it was an accident why not leave it as such, dial 911 and say my daughter fell off the ** hitting her head, whatever?

Because JonBenet was not an infant anymore, but someone who theoretically could have talked later ("Mommy hit me"). People can wake up from a coma even after a serious head injury. So there was no absolute certainty for the Ramseys to rely on JB's continuing silence.
I also believe the Ramseys thought the hospital staff would not buy a 'falling off the **' story, because they kney how horrible the head blow had been.
I also imagine that hospital staff become suspicious if these 'accidents' happen so late at night.

In addition, this was not an accident in the classic sense, but a blow struck out by an enraged parent, which is something else.

 

[rashomon]

SuperDave: I always believed ST's theory that the blow came first but I read Wecht's book also and he says there is not enough blood for that kind of a blow to have happened first; that it had to happen when she was near death and the blood flow slowed considerably. Can anyone help with this. This is one of the first times I have seen it brought up and I am very interested in what everyone has to say.

And then you have ST saying there was massive hemmorhaging. So help me, please?

Solace: in addition to the 7-8 cc of subdural hemorrhage there was also a film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere. That's what Cyril Wecht obviously left out when claiming there was so little blood in JB's brain. And that's what Steve Thomas meant when he wrote that JB's brain had 'extensively hemorrhaged', the blood having spread over the whole right half of her brain.
There also was an extensive linear area of purple contusion underlying the linear skull fracture from the front to the back of the head.

So there was bleeding, swelling and contusion of the brain, and forensic pathologist Dr. Spitz saying there was no question that the head blow came first.

 

[BBB167893]

Well, Spitz said the head blow came before to ligature. he didn't rule out a previous strangling with the shirt. But essentially, you are correct in that representation.

"Perhaps parents wouldn't be comfortable turning on lights very late at night in their own home if a fatal accident had just occurred and they were trying to cover it up and didn't want to draw any extra attention by having lights fully on when everyone should be asleep."

I was gonna say, see how clear your thinking is in a spot like that, which I hope no one here EVER has to do!

"I also imagine that hospital staff become suspicious if these 'accidents' happen so late at night."

Take my word for it. They do. I asked a nurse when I went to give blood last year. Besides, that "the kid fell" story is the oldest dodge in the game.

"In addition, this was not an accident in the classic sense, but a blow struck out by an enraged parent, which is something else."

Yes, when we say "accident" we mean it was unintentional.

 

[UKGuy]

I think they did not want to put lights on anywhere in the house, just like Nuisanceposter said:

I doubt this very much, did JonBenet snack her pineapple in the dark, did Burke sip his tea by flashlight?

Its Xmas, vacation time, lights late at night are no big deal.

added: Was the Ransom Note authored in the dark, or by the moonlight?

I don't think anything was premeditated and planned. Whoever used the flashlight obviously wiped it clean afterwards, that's all.

Interesting I guarantee your position will change on this, its not a that's all. issue, I still maintain that this aspect was premeditated and planned.


.

 

[rashomon]

I doubt this very much, did JonBenet snack her pineapple in the dark, did Burke sip his tea by flashlight?
Its Xmas, vacation time, lights late at night are no big deal.

I was of course referring to the situation after JB was killed, not before. It is true that lights on late at night at Christmas are no big deal, but a dead body in the house is a big deal.

Interesting I guarantee your position will change on this, its not a that's all. issue, I still maintain that this aspect was premeditated and planned.

UKGuy, you wrote: I think from the forensic evidence that its safe to assume the use of the flashlight was premeditated and pre-planned!

I don't see why wiping a flashlight plus batteries automatically points to premediation and planning. Let's assume Patsy used that flashlight and later wiped it off in a panic, even the batteries, because she wanted to create the impression that the intruder had brought the flashlight with him.
You maintain that the use of the flashlight was premeditated and planned. WHO do you think premeditated and planned to use the flashlight?

 

[BBB167893]

"I doubt this very much, did JonBenet snack her pineapple in the dark, did Burke sip his tea by flashlight?

Its Xmas, vacation time, lights late at night are no big deal.

added: Was the Ransom Note authored in the dark, or by the moonlight?"

Could the kitchen lights be seen from outside?

 

[UKGuy]

I was of course referring to the situation after JB was killed, not before. It is true that lights on late at night at Christmas are no big deal, but a dead body in the house is a big deal.


UKGuy, you wrote: I think from the forensic evidence that its safe to assume the use of the flashlight was premeditated and pre-planned!

I don't see why wiping a flashlight plus batteries points to premediation and planning. Let's assume Patsy used that flashlight and later wiped it off in a panic, even the batteries, because she wanted to create the impression that the intruder had brought the flashlight with him.
You maintain that the use of the flashlight was premeditated and planned. WHO do you think premeditated and planned to use the flashlight?

rashomon,

JonBenet was killed shortly after consuming the pineapple. Presumably the lights were on during the snacking session. And unless you think the Ransom Note was pre-written, then some light would be required to author it after JonBenet was dead! So assuming the foregoing is correct there should be no need for a flashlight?

I don't see why wiping a flashlight plus batteries points to premediation and planning.

IMO an intruder would only need to wipe the outside of the flashlight, better still, take it with him on the way out. e.g. leave no evidence.

But the batteries were wiped too, ask yourself why should the perp want to wipe the batteries?

My answer is because the use of the flashlight was preplanned and the perp likely added either one or more new batteries, anticipating its use?

So later possibly much later it may have been retrieved from either the wine-cellar or JonBenet's bedroom and wiped?

 

[Britt]

JonBenet was killed shortly after consuming the pineapple.

Per the digestion rate of the pineapple, she was killed two to five hours after eating it.

 

[UKGuy]

Per the digestion rate of the pineapple, she was killed two to five hours after eating it.

Britt,

Sure as long as its afterwards, since the lighting was probably on during the snack.

.