What do the profilers say?

[aussiesheila]

aussieshiela,

IMO Beuf is a phony. How come he didn't see any signs of sexual abuse in JonBenet after almost 30 visits, but virtually all other experts did see it? These included nationally recognized experts such as doctors' Cyril Wecht, David Jones, James Monteleone, John McCann, and Ronald Wright.

Beuf appears to be part of the coverup of the truth that his personal friends, John and Patsy Ramsey, have been engaged in since the murder.

BlueCrab

I'm in agreement with you BlueCrab, that Beuf appears to be part of the coverup of the truth that his personal friends, ..... ..... and ......... ..... have been engaged in since the murder, but I would have different names in the spaces.

 

[sissi]

While Douglas believes the Ramseys are innocent, Ressler in an early interview did not. Within this early interview it is possible to ascertain why he came to that conclusion. He was briefed by those that TOLD him they had no doubts as to the Ramsey guilt. He was duped!!

Ressler"Yeah, I've been to Boulder on two occasions. I've talked to a number of people in the law enforcement field, the medical field, the prosecutor, one of the prosecutors out there, even some of the domestic help of uh, the Ramseys and uh, some media people as well."



However, he answered a question honestly! In doing so, he "profiled" for us a "student of crime", perhaps one we know, perhaps not, but someone who followed serial murderers, one who "knew" the background of the Henry Hance ransom note. (1977)

Ressler: Well, what I mean from the standpoint if the writer of the JonBenet note is an avid reader of True Crime and-- uh-- a moviegoer. Certainly they may of gotten the idea from that particular--uh-- uh-- several ransom notes that were written in the-- in the Columbus, y'know, Strangler case. So, I mean, I--I got the distinct impression from reading the JonBenet note-- uh-- that the writer did have some knowledge of-- uh-- books and movies that they had taken bits an pieces from-- uh-- uh



Ressler: The fact was there was no real indication of any--any professional kidnapper it was more or less of a person it was trying to sound like a kidnapper so they could of actually taken that little bit from the Columbus case.

 

[tipper]

I thought this was an interesting synopsis.


http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7257
Robert Ressler: The Denver Post 1/31/97

The killer was "part of the "immediate circle" of people surrounding the home. That circle would include her immediate family, neighbors, friends of the family, Ramsey houseworkers, adolescent boys who live in the neighborhood or members of her stepbrother's nearby fraternity house... the person knows the child. . .

And I think the entire kidnap note, the garrote, the rope, the whole thing I think was a staging to cover up the true motivation and to cover the identity of the person that did the crime." ... Why, asked Ressler, was the killer so
comfortable in a home where he or she could write practice and ransom notes,fashion a garrote, kill a little girl and move her body around with impunity? "Why did he feel he had the luxury of spending that much time in the house and not being caught by someone who lived there?"

The person who killed JonBenet did not mean to kill her, and then panicked afterwards,writing a bogus ransom note in an effort to throw the police off, said Ressler... "You are talking about a person that didn't know what they were doing in the first place, did something very stupid and then tried to cover their tracks and in doing so has just left a lot of directions to follow," said Ressler... Ressler believes that the killer is not a "career" child molester or predator who has stalked kids all of his adult life. Nor are police dealing with a kidnapper. During a visit to Boulder last weekend, Ressler visited the Ramsey house and was struck by the fact there was a tree house in the backyard where neighborhood kids could congregate.

"One of the things you have to consider with that garrote and everything is a neighborhood person - an adolescent," said Ressler... Ressler said that police also have to look at members of the fraternity that John Andrew Ramsey JonBenet's half-brother belonged to. "If the son had associates that he knew in the frat house I would certainly be looking at everybody in that frat house who had access to the house," said Ressler. "Living that close, it just stands to reason that the son must have brought friends home."

Ressler On The Ransom note

"This business of getting a good night's rest because the next days are going to be trying, all these things are just above and beyond a kidnapper," Ressler said.

 

[UKGuy]

And I think the entire kidnap note, the garrote, the rope, the whole thing I think was a staging to cover up the true motivation and to cover the identity of the person that did the crime." ... Why, asked Ressler, was the killer so
comfortable in a home where he or she could write practice and ransom notes,fashion a garrote, kill a little girl and move her body around with impunity? "Why did he feel he had the luxury of spending that much time in the house and not being caught by someone who lived there?"

tipper,

Ressler, using much the same evidence as Lou Smit comes up with a staging interpretation, and asks some pointed questions, I feel he had a good handle on the case at this point!

 

[sissi]

He would only be that comfortable if a. he was insane or b. he is so close to the Ramseys as to KNOW they do not get up and check the house in the middle of the night.

 

[aussiesheila]

Added: She also had areas of the same chronic interstitial inflammatory infiltrate in her thyroid. What do you think caused that?

Thank you Tipper for drawing this to our attention. I must admit I had not realised the significance of this until you pointed it out.

Tipper, to me this suggests that there had been small injuries inflicted on the thyroid many times over a period of time.

I think it is possible that these injuries were caused by the neck ligature, and the fact that the interstitial inflammatory infiltrate was chronic would lead one to consider the likelihood that neck ligatures had been applied to JonBenet a number of times prior to the murder.

Kind of puts a bit of a spanner in the works for the "garotte was a stageing device" theory doesn't it?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

...would lead one to consider the likelihood that neck ligatures had been applied to JonBenet a number of times prior to the murder.

It doesn't lead this one to consider it. The idea a six year old was willingly involved in anything remotely similar to EA is absurd.

She was strangled by someone who was using deadly force at the time (fact).

She was headbashed (fact) probably so she couldn't be revived. The reason Bobby Franks was killed, as explained by L & L, was so he couldn't report them. Same thing with JBR.

 

[aussiesheila]

It doesn't lead this one to consider it. The idea a six year old was willingly involved in anything remotely similar to EA is absurd.

She was strangled by someone who was using deadly force at the time (fact).

She was headbashed (fact) probably so she couldn't be revived. The reason Bobby Franks was killed, as explained by L & L, was so he couldn't report them. Same thing with JBR.

Holdontoyourhat,

I was answering Tipper's question with respect to the areas of the same chronic interstitial inflammatory infiltrate in JonBenet's thyroid noted by the coroner. She asked "What do you think caused that?"

You obviously disagree with what I think, so do you mind me asking "What do YOU think caused that?"

I am referring to the issue of it being CHRONIC which you avoided addressing in your reply.

 

[BlueCrab]

Thank you Tipper for drawing this to our attention. I must admit I had not realised the significance of this until you pointed it out.

Tipper, to me this suggests that there had been small injuries inflicted on the thyroid many times over a period of time.

I think it is possible that these injuries were caused by the neck ligature, and the fact that the interstitial inflammatory infiltrate was chronic would lead one to consider the likelihood that neck ligatures had been applied t

o JonBenet a number of times prior to the murder.

Kind of puts a bit of a spanner in the works for the "garotte was a stageing device" theory doesn't it?

tipper and aussiesheila,

Excellent find. This could be significant.

I agree with your conclusion that neck compressions had likely occurred prior to the day of the murder, thus causing the chronic injuries. It strongly suggests that the ligature device, or a choking game of some kind, had been used by or on JonBenet in the past.

From Dr. John Meyer's autopsy report in regard to the thyroid (at the base of the neck):

"An occasional isolated area of chronic interstitial inflammatory infiltrate is seen."

Also from the autopsy report in regard to the trachea (the main air passage in the neck):

"There is mild chronic inflamation in the submucosa of the trachea."

IOW, the chronic injuries to the thyroid and trachea is evidence that JonBenet may have been engaged in erotic asphyxiation (EA) or autoerotic asphyxiation (AEA) sex on days prior to the day she was murdered. If true, then the device wrapped around JonBenet's neck was not a part of the staging -- it was being used for what it was obviously designed to do, breath control masturbation sex, and was not originally being used as a garrote (even though it was eventually used as a garrote to kill).

One thing that bothers me however, is the hair from JonBenet being entwined in the knot on the wooden handle of the device. It implies the knot was tied in place on the body, thereby suggesting staging.

BlueCrab

 

[rashomon]

Holdontoyourhat,

I was answering Tipper's question with respect to the areas of the same chronic interstitial inflammatory infiltrate in JonBenet's thyroid noted by the coroner. She asked "What do you think caused that?"

Before speculating here I'd suggest getting medical info on what can cause thyroid inflammation. There are probably milllions of people with inflamed thyroids who didn't get it from ligatures round their necks.

The idea a six year old was willingly involved in anything remotely similar to EA is absurd.

ITA. It is completely absurd. EA is something people do of their own free will, and not something which can be forced on anybody. Placing a six-year-old in such a scenario is ridiculous.
And just for the sake of the discussion: if JB had been chronically involved in such stuff, she probably would have had red marks on her neck from a rope all the time.

 

[rashomon]

One thing that bothers me however, is the hair from JonBenet being entwined in the knot on the wooden handle of the device. It implies the knot was tied in place on the body, thereby suggesting staging.

Very important point, which must be taken into account.
I remember another poster (UKGuy?) commenting on this too.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Before speculating here I'd suggest getting medical info on what can cause thyroid inflammation. There are probably milllions of people with inflamed thyroids who didn't get it from ligatures round their necks.


ITA. It is completely absurd. EA is something people do of their own free will, and not something which can be forced on anybody. Placing a six-year-old in such a scenario is ridiculous.
And just for the sake of the discussion: if JB had been chronically involved in such stuff, she probably would have had red marks on her neck from a rope all the time.

Agreeing. Chronic inflammation doesn't mean her thyroid was subjected to repeated external injury at all. It could mean virus, bacteria, or disease process.

Its really easy to conclude from JBR's injuries that someone used deadly force on JBR while she was still alive. A staged strangulation is out of the question.

 

[BlueCrab]

Before speculating here I'd suggest getting medical info on what can cause thyroid inflammation. There are probably milllions of people with inflamed thyroids who didn't get it from ligatures round their necks.


ITA. It is completely absurd. EA is something people do of their own free will, and not something which can be forced on anybody. Placing a six-year-old in such a scenario is ridiculous.
And just for the sake of the discussion: if JB had been chronically involved in such stuff, she probably would have had red marks on her neck from a rope all the time.

rashomon,

I respectfully disagree. EA includes the participation of a partner, and that older partner would likely be involved for his own gratification and JonBenet could cooperate out of respect for that older partner. There are other possible scenarios. For instance, on the night of the killing, since a stun gun may have been used, JonBenet could have been tortured into participating in EA. But calling the possible use of EA on JonBenet "completely absurd" in the face of autopsy evidence and autopsy photos that suggest EA could have been employed, doesn't advance the investigation.

In regard to the chronic injuries to the thyroid and the trachea being inflicted without leaving visible injuries on the skin of the neck, please remember that padding is almost always used between the ligature and the neck to prevent such tell-tale signs that EA and/or AEA has been used.

BlueCrab

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

rashomon,

I respectfully disagree. EA includes the participation of a partner, and that older partner would likely be involved for his own gratification and JonBenet could cooperate out of respect for that older partner. There are other possible scenarios. For instance, on the night of the killing, since a stun gun may have been used, JonBenet could have been tortured into participating in EA. But calling the possible use of EA on JonBenet "completely absurd" in the face of autopsy evidence and autopsy photos that suggest EA could have been employed, doesn't advance the investigation.

In regard to the chronic injuries to the thyroid and the trachea being inflicted without leaving visible injuries on the skin of the neck, please remember that padding is almost always used between the ligature and the neck to prevent such tell-tale signs that EA and/or AEA has been used.

BlueCrab

Probably invented are the ideas that:

• JBR had 'respect for an older partner'.
• JBR was 'tortured into participating'.
• photos suggest EA could have been 'employed' (photos look like strangulation to me)
• padding was used.

High-level speculation that draws only from the imagination, as you say, likely doesn't further the investigation either. May I suggest more basic observations, like the deep furrow around JBR's neck and how that must have been the result of deadly force, which contradicts any EA scenario.

 

[BlueCrab]

Probably invented are the ideas that:

• JBR had 'respect for an older partner'.
• JBR was 'tortured into participating'.
• photos suggest EA could have been 'employed' (photos look like strangulation to me)
• padding was used.

High-level speculation that draws only from the imagination, as you say, likely doesn't further the investigation either. May I suggest more basic observations, like the deep furrow around JBR's neck and how that must have been the result of deadly force, which contradicts any EA scenario.

Holdontoyourhat,

By not including my words "could have" in your quotes you are deliberately quoting me out of context. Please cease these kind of shabby attacks. Thank you.

Also, no one is disputing that the extreme tightening of the ligature around JonBenet's neck was not deadly force. What's under discussion is what could have occurred, based on the autopsy evidence, prior to the extreme tightening of the ligature. The extreme tightening of the ligature to kill her does not contradict a possible EA scenario having had taken place.

BlueCrab

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdontoyourhat,

By not including my words "could have" in your quotes you are deliberately quoting me out of context. Please cease these kind of shabby attacks. Thank you.

Also, no one is disputing that the extreme tightening of the ligature around JonBenet's neck was not deadly force. What's under discussion is what could have occurred, based on the autopsy evidence, prior to the extreme tightening of the ligature. The extreme tightening of the ligature to kill her does not contradict a possible EA scenario having had taken place.

BlueCrab

Uh, I said 'probably invented'. Is this not correct? Weren't these ideas probably invented, or was there even the slightest evidence to suggest padding, respect for her 'partner', etc.?

 

[Camper]

"Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." Author Unknown. This is a pet quote I enjoy using from time to time.

With that in mind, I post here my thoughts.

Pressure on that area of the neck has been written of in medical lore to stop convulsions in children. Additionally as I have posted in past years, surgery in that area to permanently stop chronic convulsions in children is used.

1. Could JonBenet have had convulsions for some other 'health' reason, hence the many trips to Dr. Booffff (artistic liberty to protect a potentially innocent doctor)
ER 'what did he know and when did he know it' scenario, ala Richard Nixon.

2. Do we have earlier pictures of Jon Benet in November or December?

3. What type of garments had she been wearing to school, was it just turtlenecks for some time? (turtlenecks would not raise suspicion during winter months, but could have hidden marks on her neck.

4. 'THE' scarf that JR put into the casket 'tucking' it around her neck still has GREAT cause of wonderment for me.

5. NO ONE, meaning all commentors on this case will ever convince me that OUR drooling perp would carry that 'rope device' around with them for such a purpose along with a RANSOM. Such a perp, imop, would have raped her fully, and done so away from the home AFTER LEAVING WITH HER. Foreign factions should certainly have money and a place to hang out where they could have taken her IF IF it was a planned and certified kidnapping.

You can also take to the bank, the idea that the 'supposed drooling foreign faction perp' is not a MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING with his/her foreign faction. He did not get the victim to hold for ransom nor any money for the faction coffers.

I am wondering what the foreign faction is up to in 2006.

In the first few pages of PMPT, it says of their gardener that JonBenet would cry for her daddy when he was gone. Seems odd to me that JonBenet would do that - so much so that the gardener would know. Seems to me that a child would confront their mom about daddy being gone and missing him etc. The question, posed to the gardener by JonBenet on whether a rose knows that their thorns hurt people, has seemed a bit out of focus to me at any rate. I believe this was attributed to the gardener in the book as well.

If I do not have the correct recall of the gardeners section in PMPT, feel free to correct me here.


.

 

[Nehemiah]

The gardener is of much interest to me, yet we know very little about him.

 

[UKGuy]

I take many of the remarks and pearls of wisdom attributed posthumously to JonBenet not only with a pinch of salt, but possibly with some artistic license.

Authors have to sell books and Journalist have to write copy, and newspapers love their stereotypes.

It may be a reflection of the times we live in, but that the media take seriously that JonBenet was engaging in Erotic Asphyxiation activities, yet she is only 6-years old, I find disconcerting!



.

 

[sandraladeda]

3. What type of garments had she been wearing to school, was it just turtlenecks for some time? (turtlenecks would not raise suspicion during winter months, but could have hidden marks on her neck.

Good point here, Camper, and it is my biased belief that she would not have shown any signs of previous neck marks, imo. But it would be good to see, to eliminate that possibility.

5. NO ONE, meaning all commentors on this case will ever convince me that OUR drooling perp would carry that 'rope device' around with them for such a purpose along with a RANSOM. Such a perp, imop, would have raped her fully, and done so away from the home AFTER LEAVING WITH HER. Foreign factions should certainly have money and a place to hang out where they could have taken her IF IF it was a planned and certified kidnapping.

You can also take to the bank, the idea that the 'supposed drooling foreign faction perp' is not a MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING with his/her foreign faction. He did not get the victim to hold for ransom nor any money for the faction coffers.

I am wondering what the foreign faction is up to in 2006.

Bravo on these points! I often forget about that - the fact that the perp could have/should have/would have simply hauled JBR away and abused her at their leisure elsewhere.

As for the FF, well, my guess is that the failed kidnapper faced the ultimate in punishment from his FF - yes, he was beheaded!! (what else... )