What sent Casey over the edge

[Mom of Five]

Well...we don't know, do we?

I still can't rule out an accident w/ Casey resorting to her m.o. of attempting to lie her way out of being responsible for it.

I haven't enough information to settle for myself which it is...and I've seen good cases made for intentional & accidental. Accidental certainly reconciles better with my sense of normalcy, and, yet, I can imagine a rage-induced, intentional act too. I can't to a well-planned scenario just yet...NOT that it isn't possible - I just haven't gotten a grasp of that one...yet.

At first I also thought it was accidental, I don't anymore. With all of the evidence that's been made available to the public along with the immunity deal I think she would have fessed up to an accident. Her absolute refusal to cooperate in any way with authorities points to either gross negligence on her part or intentional injury that brought about death. I have a hard time believing that she set out to kill Caylee. I do think however, that with a child that small, in a fit of rage Casey could have killed Caylee.

 

[El Gato]

At first I also thought it was accidental, I don't anymore. With all of the evidence that's been made available to the public along with the immunity deal I think she would have fessed up to an accident. Her absolute refusal to cooperate in any way with authorities points to either gross negligence on her part or intentional injury that brought about death. I have a hard time believing that she set out to kill Caylee. I do think however, that with a child that small, in a fit of rage Casey could have killed Caylee.

I agree with this statement.

 

[passin_through]

BondJamesBond,

Impressed with your post, much thought in all of it and it seems pretty darn perceptive!

I was wondering if you watched Nancy Grace or will you take 2nd hand info into account? If so, curious how this adds to your analysis...
*snip*
NATE: I`m not exactly sure on the specifics. I`m not sure if it was problems between her parents or if she was having problems with her parents. I`m not exactly sure as to the nature of the problems -- but that she did not want Caylee to be subjected to the environment. So she brought Caylee -- she told us that she brought Caylee to the nanny`s and that she was going to stay with us in the evenings, which -- I mean, we`re an apartment that`s on a 24-hour schedule. There`s constantly people in and out.

So to us, it did not seem like a good idea to have Caylee at our apartment full-time, so we thought she was doing the good motherly thing. You know, she didn`t want to impose herself on the nanny also, so Caylee would stay there in the evenings, and she would stay with us in the evenings.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/09/ng.01.html

I realize it's not exactly what you're doing but I did find it interesting to hear that on NG, after reading your analysis. thanks

 

[Mom of Five]

Interesting analysis.

I take this part maybe a little differently (or maybe I didn't understanding what you were trying to convey).



I take it as a slip on Casey's part - that Caylee would have had a "melt down" if she had
been talking to Cindy, because Cindy was really primary caregiver and more bonded with Caylee. I think Casey is classic bpd (doncha love how I can diagnose that from a distance!) and isn't bonded with anyone. I think the real struggle with Casey is wanting her mother's approval, but she absolutely cannot face that need.

Interesting analysis.


I have a sister who is Bipolar with Histrionic personality disorder as well as borderline P.D. I am raising her daughter as my own.

I'll never forget the night that she first gave her to me. She said to me, "I don't love anybody and nobody loves me."
She is one of four children brought up in an upper middle class home. She was privately educated and had a stay at home Mom. My parents are merely shadows of the people they once were because of all the heart ache she has brought to them. They continually felt that they could fix her or save her. If you look up co-dependency you'll see that one of the symptoms is a saviour complex. I think Ca and GA are typical enabling co-dependents that have been beaten down by their overbearing daughter. Lee has also been affected by this just as my two brothers have been. Every one runs around trying to make everything seem like it's great when it's not. Family members who value integrity begin to make excuses for lying when it's about protecting the family. The parents feel overwhelming guilt and are constantly beating themselves up over real and imagined parental shortcomings and have to come to terms with the fact that this adult child will never be able to take care of herself. The promiscuity is part of the disorder and this particular symptom is one of the hardest for the Dad to deal with. I don't think George molested his daughter but he probably blames himself for her promiscuity. He probably wonders whether he gave her enough love and attention and Casey uses his guilt against him and this drives a wedge between CA and GA. GA in an effort to make it up to Casey gives in to her whims while CA is trying to make her accountable and they probably fight about it all the time.

I could go on and on I've seen it, I've lived it. My parents are strong Christians who value morals, integrity and the sanctity of marriage, but they've lied and come close to divorce a couple of times because of the strife caused by my sister. When my sister gave birth she was high on meth and my Father lied to child protection services in order to keep them from taking the baby. My Mom and Dad both continued to help my sister make it appear as if she was caring for her baby all the while knowing that she wasn't. Weeks would go by and we wouldn't know where the baby was. She would say she was with the baby sitter, but my sister didn't have a job. Social Services became suspicious and began contacting me directly. I was the only member of my family who was willing to be this beautiful baby girl's advocate. I fought for her with no support from my parents and at times they made things harder for me. When my hubby and I finally got custody of her my parents demanded that we allow my sister visitation even though the court order specified that she could only have visits after completing drug rehab and several other things.
My sister would go a month without seeing the baby and then decide to throw a fit at my parent's house trying to get them to pressure us. She is violent, she has attacked my Father, my youngest brother and my Mother, (she cut my mom's face open), but my parents demanded we allow her to see the baby. They accused us of, "hiding behind the skirts of the court", "denying a baby the warmth of a Mother's touch", and even told my husband that he was immoral for not allowing her visitation. We stuck to our guns and we are now in the process of adopting our wonderful baby girl. We also have had to remove ourselves from my family. We no longer have contact with any of them. Even my brothers felt that it woukd be ok to put the baby in jeopardy and go against a court order to make my sister and parents happy. Tiime and time again I have said to my husband that this little baby girl was expendable to them. It's all about my sister.

I only wish Casey had had an older sister that maybe could have seen through the madness and taken that baby out of there.

I'm sorry for the long post, I just had to share. Hubby and I feel that our baby girl could have been just like Caylee.

 

[cinsbythesea]

Interesting analysis.


I have a sister who is Bipolar with Histrionic personality disorder as well as borderline P.D. I am raising her daughter as my own.

I'll never forget the night that she first gave her to me. She said to me, "I don't love anybody and nobody loves me."
She is one of four children brought up in an upper middle class home. She was privately educated and had a stay at home Mom. My parents are merely shadows of the people they once were because of all the heart ache she has brought to them. They continually felt that they could fix her or save her. If you look up co-dependency you'll see that one of the symptoms is a saviour complex. I think Ca and GA are typical enabling co-dependents that have been beaten down by their overbearing daughter. Lee has also been affected by this just as my two brothers have been. Every one runs around trying to make everything seem like it's great when it's not. Family members who value integrity begin to make excuses for lying when it's about protecting the family. The parents feel overwhelming guilt and are constantly beating themselves up over real and imagined parental shortcomings and have to come to terms with the fact that this adult child will never be able to take care of herself. The promiscuity is part of the disorder and this particular symptom is one of the hardest for the Dad to deal with. I don't think George molested his daughter but he probably blames himself for her promiscuity. He probably wonders whether he gave her enough love and attention and Casey uses his guilt against him and this drives a wedge between CA and GA. GA in an effort to make it up to Casey gives in to her whims while CA is trying to make her accountable and they probably fight about it all the time.

I could go on and on I've seen it, I've lived it. My parents are strong Christians who value morals, integrity and the sanctity of marriage, but they've lied and come close to divorce a couple of times because of the strife caused by my sister. When my sister gave birth she was high on meth and my Father lied to child protection services in order to keep them from taking the baby. My Mom and Dad both continued to help my sister make it appear as if she was caring for her baby all the while knowing that she wasn't. Weeks would go by and we wouldn't know where the baby was. She would say she was with the baby sitter, but my sister didn't have a job. Social Services became suspicious and began contacting me directly. I was the only member of my family who was willing to be this beautiful baby girl's advocate. I fought for her with no support from my parents and at times they made things harder for me. When my hubby and I finally got custody of her my parents demanded that we allow my sister visitation even though the court order specified that she could only have visits after completing drug rehab and several other things.
My sister would go a month without seeing the baby and then decide to throw a fit at my parent's house trying to get them to pressure us. She is violent, she has attacked my Father, my youngest brother and my Mother, (she cut my mom's face open), but my parents demanded we allow her to see the baby. They accused us of, "hiding behind the skirts of the court", "denying a baby the warmth of a Mother's touch", and even told my husband that he was immoral for not allowing her visitation. We stuck to our guns and we are now in the process of adopting our wonderful baby girl. We also have had to remove ourselves from my family. We no longer have contact with any of them. Even my brothers felt that it woukd be ok to put the baby in jeopardy and go against a court order to make my sister and parents happy. Tiime and time again I have said to my husband that this little baby girl was expendable to them. It's all about my sister.

I only wish Casey had had an older sister that maybe could have seen through the madness and taken that baby out of there.

I'm sorry for the long post, I just had to share. Hubby and I feel that our baby girl could have been just like Caylee.

Kudos to you Momof5 - your courage and your deep love for your sister's baby is inspiring. She is a lucky little girl to have you in her life. I applaud you and wish you much happiness with your new baby girl.

 

[jpaull]

I'm sorry for the long post, I just had to share. Hubby and I feel that our baby girl could have been just like Caylee.

I think your story has a lot of relevance to this. I have been focusing on this scenario:

--CA tells her parents that she killed Caylee because she was mad at them so it was their fault. Now she is going to go to jail and that is their fault also.

--Their response is not anger and disgust towards CA, but rather, "OMG, what have WE done??? We killed our granddaughter! Now we have to save our daughter!"

--So they come up with their "plan" and the circus of lies begins.

Not necessarily my opinion but, just a secnario that seems to fit with what I know and have observed.

 

[magiemay]

I think what drove KC over the edge was losing control her whole life was getting ready to change notice how most people with a personality like KC are always or like to think that they are in control and they have the final say, First she was already caught for the money theft, this provoked the confrontation with the parents on the 15th, Then they tell her she has to get out and they are going to get custody of the baby, she was going to be with no home no job and no Caylee so then she takes control again and leaves with Caylee only again no home no job no money she was still losing control these sort of people have to have control.

 

[Stoelly]

Interesting analysis.


I have a sister who is Bipolar with Histrionic personality disorder as well as borderline P.D. I am raising her daughter as my own. . . .

MOMOFFIVE - You are very strong and insightful. Thank you for sharing your experience - it has opened my eyes and your experience seems very similar to the Anthony family.

 

[Mom of Five]

I think your story has a lot of relevance to this. I have been focusing on this scenario:

--CA tells her parents that she killed Caylee because she was mad at them so it was their fault. Now she is going to go to jail and that is their fault also.

--Their response is not anger and disgust towards CA, but rather, "OMG, what have WE done??? We killed our granddaughter! Now we have to save our daughter!"

--So they come up with their "plan" and the circus of lies begins.

Not necessarily my opinion but, just a secnario that seems to fit with what I know and have observed.

Just to give you a little more insight. When my sister attacked my mother she was charged with felony assault and battery. My mother required several stiches because her mouth had been torn open at the corner. My son who was 9 at the time as well as my youngest brother who was 11 were both there and were involved with trying to protect my mom. Mom got away by grabbing the car keys and running outside to the car and locking herself in. She called 911 on a cell phone that thankfully had been left in the car. My sister had pulled the phones out of the wall and pulled on my mother by her hair. She had also threatened to kill the boys who locked themselves in my Dad's office when Mom was safely locked in the car.
When all was said and done Mom and Dad hired my sister a defense attorney and Mom testified in court that although my sister was angry she didn't mean to cause harm. They kept all of this a secret from the rest of the family including their other children. The charges were lowered to a misdemeanor and she got off with probation and court ordered anger management, which she has never even begun. They even let her move back into the house for a while.Since then she has been charged twice more with felony assault and gotten off both times.
I felt strongly that I didn't want my children in the same house as my sister, my parents ridiculed me and said I was being overly dramatic about the whole situation.

 

[YellowDog]

I think the reason Casey went over the edge was because her parents stood up to her for once and let her know that they felt it was time for her to become an adult and be responsible for her own actions. They were told to practice "tough love" and Casey couldn't handle it.

"Tough love" is practiced by many therapists. I believe the parents were trying to do what they were told needed to be done.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Interesting analysis.


I have a sister who is Bipolar with Histrionic personality disorder as well as borderline P.D. I am raising her daughter as my own.

I'll never forget the night that she first gave her to me. She said to me, "I don't love anybody and nobody loves me."
She is one of four children brought up in an upper middle class home. She was privately educated and had a stay at home Mom. My parents are merely shadows of the people they once were because of all the heart ache she has brought to them. They continually felt that they could fix her or save her. If you look up co-dependency you'll see that one of the symptoms is a saviour complex. I think Ca and GA are typical enabling co-dependents that have been beaten down by their overbearing daughter. Lee has also been affected by this just as my two brothers have been. Every one runs around trying to make everything seem like it's great when it's not. Family members who value integrity begin to make excuses for lying when it's about protecting the family. The parents feel overwhelming guilt and are constantly beating themselves up over real and imagined parental shortcomings and have to come to terms with the fact that this adult child will never be able to take care of herself. The promiscuity is part of the disorder and this particular symptom is one of the hardest for the Dad to deal with. I don't think George molested his daughter but he probably blames himself for her promiscuity. He probably wonders whether he gave her enough love and attention and Casey uses his guilt against him and this drives a wedge between CA and GA. GA in an effort to make it up to Casey gives in to her whims while CA is trying to make her accountable and they probably fight about it all the time.

I could go on and on I've seen it, I've lived it. My parents are strong Christians who value morals, integrity and the sanctity of marriage, but they've lied and come close to divorce a couple of times because of the strife caused by my sister. When my sister gave birth she was high on meth and my Father lied to child protection services in order to keep them from taking the baby. My Mom and Dad both continued to help my sister make it appear as if she was caring for her baby all the while knowing that she wasn't. Weeks would go by and we wouldn't know where the baby was. She would say she was with the baby sitter, but my sister didn't have a job. Social Services became suspicious and began contacting me directly. I was the only member of my family who was willing to be this beautiful baby girl's advocate. I fought for her with no support from my parents and at times they made things harder for me. When my hubby and I finally got custody of her my parents demanded that we allow my sister visitation even though the court order specified that she could only have visits after completing drug rehab and several other things.
My sister would go a month without seeing the baby and then decide to throw a fit at my parent's house trying to get them to pressure us. She is violent, she has attacked my Father, my youngest brother and my Mother, (she cut my mom's face open), but my parents demanded we allow her to see the baby. They accused us of, "hiding behind the skirts of the court", "denying a baby the warmth of a Mother's touch", and even told my husband that he was immoral for not allowing her visitation. We stuck to our guns and we are now in the process of adopting our wonderful baby girl. We also have had to remove ourselves from my family. We no longer have contact with any of them. Even my brothers felt that it woukd be ok to put the baby in jeopardy and go against a court order to make my sister and parents happy. Tiime and time again I have said to my husband that this little baby girl was expendable to them. It's all about my sister.

I only wish Casey had had an older sister that maybe could have seen through the madness and taken that baby out of there.

I'm sorry for the long post, I just had to share. Hubby and I feel that our baby girl could have been just like Caylee.

...regardless of what I type here it won't convey what I want to, but, I'm compelled to try...

* I'm deeply moved by what you and your husband have done and are doing
* It strengthens my own faith to learn of your example & sacrifice for the love of this child

No one knows what they themselves would do when placed in the situation your family has been in. I only hope I would be able to rise to the call as you have. You clearly have a special purpose in this world, and a secure place in the next.

 

[Salem]

jeannie - thank you for sharing. I echo BJB's comments above. Bless you and your husband! Stay strong. I know it is difficult to go against your family, but I truely believe you are doing the right thing.

Remember if you need emotional or moral support, you can start a thread in the jury room and we will all be there to back you up. My prayers are with you and your family.

Salem

 

[magic-cat]

If you read Cindy's My Space post about her heartbreak and the fact that Casey had taken Caylee, you will see that it was "without warning"...I am 100% positive that they did not mean for Caylee to ever go with Casey...They knew she would not be safe. They KNEW, because Cindy writes "Who is (or will-I cannot recall without looking it up)watching over the little angel NOW?" ...to me this would imply that she KNEW Casey was not "watching after her" and so she wondered who was?

 

[MvD]

Maybe I am just overly cynical.. but more and more I am leaning towards KC just realizing her "free ride" was coming to an end.. and also that perhaps tony didnt want an immediate family.. and she just flat out pulled a susan smith .

At first I thought possibly an accident.. and still took issue with that because almost everyone would immediately call 911 in event of emergency.. then I kinda leaned more towards a frustrated, angry KC who lost her temper and snapped because Caylee was cramping her style.. but with the release of the chloroform info.. I think it was premeditated...

JMHO