What small foreign faction?

[Plenum7]

And, btw, the contracts involved in that Koreans vs Lockheed Martin case involved SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) i.e. hi-tech military computer graphics used in mapping. What field of computing was Ramsey's company in?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

And, btw, the contracts involved in that Koreans vs Lockheed Martin case involved SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) i.e. hi-tech military computer graphics used in mapping. What field of computing was Ramsey's company in?

Sun Microsystems workstation development and sales, I believe. Not sure what the application was, maybe CAD?

 

[MurriFlower]

Neither make sense unless people know that was the intent. Maybe the ransom note author thought he'd provided enough to have an effect on something. If it was an attempt along those lines then it failed, unless there is a latent effect.

Well, I expect the people it was aimed at DID know what was intended.

No, I think it probably succeeded, there was a Victory! after all......

I think child murder under any circumstance has to be psychopathic, and so I'd be looking for a crazy Korean socialist. Know of any?

Not personally, although crazy psychopaths come in a lot of different flavours.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well, I expect the people it was aimed at DID know what was intended.

No, I think it probably succeeded, there was a Victory! after all......



Not personally, although crazy psychopaths come in a lot of different flavours.

Victory! is used as a closing salutation. I'll bet the author does that all the time.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Holdontoyourhat,

The case is:

KOREA SUPPLY COMPANY v. LOCKHEED MARTIN CORPORATION

KOREA SUPPLY COMPANY, Plaintiff and Appellant, v. LOCKHEED MARTIN CORPORATION et al., Defendants and Respondents. No. B136410.

There was bribery involved. If you dig into it you find the stuff about a system of sexual favors operating. "...did knowingly and intentionally induce the Republic of Korea, through its authorized agencies, to award the SAR contract to Loral instead of MacDonald Dettwiller by employing wrongful means including bribes and sexual favors..." Etc.

I'll dig into it.

 

[GingBreade]

Thats interesting, the Korean news from 1996.

Also, December 25, 1996 was the 5th anniversary of the fall of the Soviet Union, and an FBI profiler Clint VanZandt uses the word 'revolutionary' and 'hark back to foreign powers' when describing some of the ransom note content.

Cold war leftist socialist revolutionaries can be Korean also, not just Cuban or Russian. This certainly has more ring to it than the middle east.

Taking a close zoomed in look at the letter 'f' in 'follow our instructions' and to me it looks like an oriental penmanship not American.

Every 'F' in the letter looks f'ed up to me! Here's a question though: how does the sff writer know to leave an extra space after most commas? It's very obvious in the "stray dog" section. Man, they're good!

 

[joeskidbeck]

You all talk as if the note really sounds like it was written by an actual "foreigner", have any of you ever spent any time in the Southern United States? The note sounds very Southern to me and not only because of the terms used. As a matter of fact, Patsy Ramsey would have felt like a "foreigner" while she was living in Boulder because of the cultural differences between Boulder and Atlanta(I believe Nedra even addressed this in one of her interviews). Anyone (challenge this if you can) born and raised in the South who moves to other parts of the country feel very displaced and unless they spend years there adjusting, it's hard to feel like you fit in (another thing Nedra addressed, Patsy was just starting to feel accepted). Also, do you guys really believe that John Ramsey didn't know what was going on politically in Korea and other parts of the world? Both he and Patsy had input in that note, that's why it came off sounding so bizarre. I'm surprised they didn't blame it on 'LSD crazed hippies". Oh yeah, that was tried before and didn't work out so well.
You could opine here for years about that "small foreign faction" (which I believe were the Ramseys themselves), but till one of them comes forward and takes credit, it has no merit. My goodness, even John Andrew said it sounded like someone Patsy would know (don't think he meant her Boulder friends with that remark).

 

[Plenum7]

For the record joeskidbeck I'm largely of a RDI persuasion. That would be the simplest answer here. But I'm also aware that most of the evidence pointing in that direction is circumstantial. Imagine. You wake up one morning and there's a dead body in your basement. You've got some explaining to do. I think it is *most likely* that the Ramsey's are the guilty party. But I do have an open mind on the matter and I confess to being fascinated by this truly bizarre ransom note. It is worth looking at it every which way, just in case.

I haven't been to the American south but I quite believe it is like another country, if not another planet. But I don't believe that the word "foreign" refers to that and I don't believe that the "foreign faction" are the Ramsays themselves. I'm more inclined to think those words and phrases are empty or are just crime cinema. But there is the possibility they might refer to someone. It is a question worth asking: Which foreigners are we supposed to have brought to mind here? Or just generic "foreigners"? I insist, in any case, that the (quite strange detail) "beheading" is supposed to go with the notion of "foreigner". "Beheading" doesn't go with "southerner", does it? One way I analyse texts like this is to establish what elements match with what other elements. "Foreigner" and "beheading" go together as part of the same thought, imo. So then the question becomes: what type of foreigners behead their captives? These days we'd say al-Qaeda type Arabs, sure. But it is also true - traditionally, ritually - of Koreans. And at that point I start thinking of other possible Korean elements here.

Again: a RDI scenario is most likely and the simplest explanation, I think, but I'm prepared to dig deeper and consider all the pieces of the puzzle from other angles. RDI with an open mind (and a natural curiosity about this strange ransom note!)

 

[SunnieRN]

Wow!:waitasec:

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Every 'F' in the letter looks f'ed up to me! Here's a question though: how does the sff writer know to leave an extra space after most commas? It's very obvious in the "stray dog" section. Man, they're good!

I think the rn author used twice the whitespace compared to PR's exemplars. Part of the diabolical plan to mislead police, I guess?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

For the record joeskidbeck I'm largely of a RDI persuasion. That would be the simplest answer here. But I'm also aware that most of the evidence pointing in that direction is circumstantial. Imagine. You wake up one morning and there's a dead body in your basement. You've got some explaining to do. I think it is *most likely* that the Ramsey's are the guilty party. But I do have an open mind on the matter and I confess to being fascinated by this truly bizarre ransom note. It is worth looking at it every which way, just in case.

I haven't been to the American south but I quite believe it is like another country, if not another planet. But I don't believe that the word "foreign" refers to that and I don't believe that the "foreign faction" are the Ramsays themselves. I'm more inclined to think those words and phrases are empty or are just crime cinema. But there is the possibility they might refer to someone. It is a question worth asking: Which foreigners are we supposed to have brought to mind here? Or just generic "foreigners"? I insist, in any case, that the (quite strange detail) "beheading" is supposed to go with the notion of "foreigner". "Beheading" doesn't go with "southerner", does it? One way I analyse texts like this is to establish what elements match with what other elements. "Foreigner" and "beheading" go together as part of the same thought, imo. So then the question becomes: what type of foreigners behead their captives? These days we'd say al-Qaeda type Arabs, sure. But it is also true - traditionally, ritually - of Koreans. And at that point I start thinking of other possible Korean elements here.

Again: a RDI scenario is most likely and the simplest explanation, I think, but I'm prepared to dig deeper and consider all the pieces of the puzzle from other angles. RDI with an open mind (and a natural curiosity about this strange ransom note!)

The most likely cause for three (3) DNA deposits on two (2) separate items of clothing she was wearing at the time, in areas relating to crime, where we know a criminal handled them, is direct transfer from the criminal. Since the DNA belongs to a unknown male and not a parent, the most likely and simplest explanation is the unknown male sexually assaulted JBR. I'm sure ML would arrest JR or PR if it were their DNA due to the criminal context within which the DNA was discovered.

BPD attempted and failed on many fronts to link PR or JR to the crime, the GJ failed to indict, and three DA's have taken no action. BPD tried DNA, handwriting, *advertiser censored*, and separate questioning. RDI has excuse after excuse on how nothing panned out, including but not limited to actual corruption of officials and professional incompetence.

Regardless of corruption or incompetence, if your suspect isn't a definite handwriting or DNA match, then you probably dont have a very good suspect. Somebody is definitely a DNA match. Somebody besides PR or JR is definitely a handwriting match (according to UC professor on linguistics and US Secret Service who both outrank us).

I disagree that RDI is the simplest or most likely. Perhaps that was the case 12 years ago but not today. The DNA labwork would have to be disregarded and that isn't rational or appropriate. The contemporary view is that IDI is the most likely. A view shared in the news, BTW.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I have to say here, and it does not matter who agrees or does not agree, NOTHING in the mainstream media means one whit to me. Impartial news reporting went the way of the horse and buggy many years ago. Any talking head can say anything they want and the sad part is that there are millions of Americans who take it as certified fact. CNN, FOX, and all the rest tell you exactly what they want you to hear in order to promote their own agendas. It's a very sad and telling fact that most Americans believe everything they hear on television!

 

[joeskidbeck]

For the record joeskidbeck I'm largely of a RDI persuasion. That would be the simplest answer here. But I'm also aware that most of the evidence pointing in that direction is circumstantial. Imagine. You wake up one morning and there's a dead body in your basement. You've got some explaining to do. I think it is *most likely* that the Ramsey's are the guilty party. But I do have an open mind on the matter and I confess to being fascinated by this truly bizarre ransom note. It is worth looking at it every which way, just in case.

I haven't been to the American south but I quite believe it is like another country, if not another planet. But I don't believe that the word "foreign" refers to that and I don't believe that the "foreign faction" are the Ramsays themselves. I'm more inclined to think those words and phrases are empty or are just crime cinema. But there is the possibility they might refer to someone. It is a question worth asking: Which foreigners are we supposed to have brought to mind here? Or just generic "foreigners"? I insist, in any case, that the (quite strange detail) "beheading" is supposed to go with the notion of "foreigner". "Beheading" doesn't go with "southerner", does it? One way I analyse texts like this is to establish what elements match with what other elements. "Foreigner" and "beheading" go together as part of the same thought, imo. So then the question becomes: what type of foreigners behead their captives? These days we'd say al-Qaeda type Arabs, sure. But it is also true - traditionally, ritually - of Koreans. And at that point I start thinking of other possible Korean elements here.

Again: a RDI scenario is most likely and the simplest explanation, I think, but I'm prepared to dig deeper and consider all the pieces of the puzzle from other angles. RDI with an open mind (and a natural curiosity about this strange ransom note!)

Plenum, you make very valid points and I agree with not just believing the rn was fake because you are RDI. That is really not why I believe it is a fake. You are right, If I woke up with my child missing I would not stop investigating every foreign faction on the planet whether or not they claimed to be "small"! I don't know that I believe the Ramseys had any particular foreign group in mind, just throw something at the wall and see what sticks.
I am obviously from the South. Born in Texas and raised in Tennessee and Georgia. Can't get much more Southern than that. Let me tell you a little ditty that really happened to me once. I was visiting New York City on a shopping trip and went in to a prominent dept. store (actually it was Macy's). I asked a sales girl for some help with the size of a garment that I admired. This girl looks at me with this puzzled look on her face so I asked her if something was wrong. No, she replied, but could you tell me what country you are from, I just love your accent! I was astounded. I know very well I have a Southern drawl (and I wouldn't lose it even if I could at 52 years old), but come on, what COUNTRY? She very much thought I was a foreigner and after that exchange, I kinda felt like onel
This is why I am so confident that PR wrote that note. Some parts of your persona cannot be hidden no matter how hard you try. I know of at least one poster who believes the note was transcribed. I believe if they had been just a little bit smarter,it would have been transcribed. They would have let Patsy write word for word what John told her to write. Leaving Patsy's BS out of it, she was her own worst enemy and she was the author of the ransom note! There is way too much of her Southern accent in it!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

There is way too much of her Southern accent in it!

Not according to a UC professor of linguistics. Who am I going to believe?:waitasec:

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I have to say here, and it does not matter who agrees or does not agree, NOTHING in the mainstream media means one whit to me. Impartial news reporting went the way of the horse and buggy many years ago. Any talking head can say anything they want and the sad part is that there are millions of Americans who take it as certified fact. CNN, FOX, and all the rest tell you exactly what they want you to hear in order to promote their own agendas. It's a very sad and telling fact that most Americans believe everything they hear on television!

If I want to read RDI, I have to buy an old tabloid. I'm not quite ready to stoop that low.

 

[SunnieRN]

Alrighty, lets look at the wording of the ransom letter and the context of what is written. First lets copy the entire letter here:

"Mr. Ramsey.
Listen carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent
a small foreign faction. We xx respect your bussiness
but not the country that it serves. At this time we have
your daughter in our posession. She is safe and unharmed and
if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to
the letter.

You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be
in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure
that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get
home you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you
between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The
delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we
monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to
arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier
delivery pickup of your daughter.

Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate
execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains
for proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter
do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I.,
etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you
talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she
dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies.
You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she
dies. You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar
with Law enforcement countermeasures and tactics. You stand a 99%
chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us. Follow
our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.
You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the
authorities. Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only
fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't
underestimate us John. Use that good southern common sense of yours.
It is up to you now John!
Victory!
S.B.T.C."

I will make my comments in the next post.

 

[Plenum7]

I've posted a 'Korean connection theory' in the Member's Theories thread. It is based on the ransom note. Amongst other things I want to draw attention to several dots that need to be joined in this note: (1) the foreign faction, (2) beheading, (3) stray dog, (4) fat cat. Also the spelling of bussiness. See my post in the theories thread.

 

[SunnieRN]

For this to have been written by someone other than a Ramsey, it means that they would KNOW that these madmen had their precious 6 year old daughter. Who may have 'been a handful', but 'was the spark plug of the family.'

So lets look at this section by section or even line by line.

"Mr. Ramsey.
Listen carefully! We are a group of individuals that represent
a small foreign faction. We xx respect your bussiness
but not the country that it serves. At this time we have
your daughter in our posession. She is safe and unharmed and
if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to
the letter."


If this was an act put forward by a group of individuals, that were trying to avenge wrongs by the Lockheed corp. against the Korean government, or Korean officials, especially concerning a sex scandal, why would they not just STATE that fact?? Wouldn't something like 'We are Korean, or Korean Americans who are taking this step in retalliation for actions of the Lockheed Corp. in their treatment of Korean officials.' Why be annonymous? Why not claim and demand recognition, if at the end of this note, you proclaim your victory?

Also, they are telling John that they have his daughter. Now if he believes this ransom note is the real deal wouldn't this:

"She is safe and unharmed and
if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to
the letter."


at least lead John to pay heed to the words in the letter?


Next section, next post

 

[SunnieRN]

"You will withdraw $118,000.00 from your account. $100,000 will be
in $100 bills and the remaining $18,000 in $20 bills. Make sure
that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get
home you will put the money in a brown paper bag. I will call you
between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The
delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested. If we
monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to
arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier
delivery pickup of your daughter."

Sounds like a normal demand in a ransom note, a ransom demand. Why would someone angry enough to kidnap a mans daughter, arrange the crime, spend money to travel to Boulder, not research the Ramseys net worth and demand a ransom that would make this worthwhile? One that would make a statement. One that would make the benefit outweigh the risks involved?

On the surface, sounds plausible, but if you look at the wealth of the family, a ludicrous amount of money.

Next question. Why would they even give a crap what John brought to pick up the money? Bring an attache... What is that all about. How heavy would $100,000 worth of $100's and $18,000 of $20's be, anyway?

So, bring a fancy case to the bank, but then instead of leaving it in a case, put the money in a paper bag, so you can give it to us. Alright then. I take it the hand off would be direct then, as there was frost and a very light snow fall on the ground, as well as melting snow from previous storms. A paper bag set on the ground anywhere could become soggy and rip, if the spot is at all wet, so that would mean a hand to hand pass off.

This would/could lead to identification of at least one of the kidnappers, foreign faction members.

Next we'll get into the meat and potatoes

 

[SunnieRN]

"Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate
execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains
for proper burial. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter
do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them.
Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I.,
etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you
talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she
dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies.
You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she
dies. You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar
with Law enforcement countermeasures and tactics. You stand a 99%
chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us. Follow
our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back.
You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the
authorities. Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only
fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. Don't
underestimate us John. Use that good southern common sense of yours.
It is up to you now John!
Victory!
S.B.T.C."


'Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate
execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains
for proper burial'

Now we are assuming here, that the Ramseys are NO WAY involved in this, other than the fact that this is their daughter. This line should have scared the bejesus out of them. If we don't do what they say, they will kill Jon Benet, SSo what should we do?

"The two gentlemen watching over your daughter
do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them."

Two men have my daughter, they don't like me and are willing to KILL my daughter. It says NOT to provoke them.

"Speaking to anyone about your situation, such as Police, F.B.I.,
etc., will result in your daughter being beheaded. If we catch you
talking to a stray dog, she dies.""

So, what will provoke them? What can get my daughter killed? Remember, the Ramseys KNOW this is a true ransom note. Speak to ANYONE will kill your daughter.

I can understand calling the police. I can understand reporting a kidnapping, but you are worried that if you call, your daughter will be killed. Is your phone bugged? Do they have cameras installed to watch your movements? Hmmm, let my hysterical wife call police. Let's not tell them that Jon Benet will be killed if I talk to you. Lets not tell them that we are being watched. Lets not mention that you are using the house phone and that you don't know if kidnappers bothered to bug the phones.

The note says if we even talk to a stray dog, Jon Benet will be killed. But I wont talk to a stray dog. I'll call over my friends, who will also bring some house guests and my pastor. After all, we don't have to follow any instructions in the note.

Wow, what if the kidnappers are somewhere in the house? What if they try to shoot us, shoot our friends, kill Burke, if we don't follow instructions? Oh, no wait. I'm the big bad papa bear, I'm a fat cat. Per wiki:

Fat cat is a political term originally describing a rich political donor, also called an angel or big money man.[1]

The New York Times has described fat cats as symbols of "a deeply corrupt campaign finance system riddled with loopholes", with Americans seeing them as recipients of the "perks of power", but able to "buy access, influence policy and even veto appointments."[2]

It is also commonly used to describe a rich, greedy person who, due to ownership of large amounts of capital, is able to "live easy" off the work of others.

History

The word was first used in the 1920s in the United States to describe rich political donors.[4][5]

The term's coinage for political purposes has been attributed to Frank Kent, a writer for the Baltimore Sun[6] whose essay "Fat Cats and Free Rides" appeared in the American Mercury, a magazine of commentary run by H. L. Mencken.[7] Kent wrote:
“ A Fat Cat is a man of large means and no political experience who having reached middle age, and success in business, and finding no further thrill ... of satisfaction in the mere piling up of more millions, develops a yearning for some sort of public honor and is willing to pay for it. The machine has what it seeks, public honor, and he has the money the machine needs.[7]

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_cat_(term)

So I think this establishes the term Fat Cat as an American term. I have not really heard this terminology since elementary school, except for VERY rare ocassions. We had a foreign exchange student who was 17, when my daughter was 14. She was from Canada and had not even heard the term and asked me about it. I find it hard to believe that the Korean community in the US uses the word commonly.

"You stand a 99%
chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us. Follow
our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back."

I think the Ramseys made their choice VERY clear to the kidnappers. Very cold hearted, don't you think? Almost like they decided to kill her, isn't it?

"You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the
authorities."

Hmmm, you think the police cars in front of the Ramsy house was a giveaway?

"Don't try to grow a brain John."

In other words, don't deviate from the instructions. I have heard several people use this expression here in TX as well as transplants here due to Katrina. This seems to be a very southern expression. I could see most people saying something like, "Don't try to get smart or outsmart us John". That would seem a more available use of language for a foreigner IMHO.

"Don't underestimate us John. Use that good southern common sense of yours. It is up to you now John!"

Wow, they really mean this. They will KILL our daughter. Southern common sense? I'm not Southern, who are these people? Hmm maybe I should listen to them, they have Jon Benet.

Actually this sounds like another good old fashioned Southern expression. If it said 'use your common sense. You are a business man, we know you have to use common sense in your business dealing...' Now that would be believeable.

If they knew enough to know about their other properties, they would know Johns background and also the wealth he must have, to afford planes and homes in three states. $118,000???

"Victory!
S.B.T.C."

Lets see, they kidnapped a child for a ransom. If this is a victory, what is it a victory of? Or is it more of a mantra?? Or a hopeful word?

I would think they would say something like 'Victory will be ours."

Also, if they are claiming Victory, whom is it victory for? Why wouldn't they just say? Why make peple speculate?

If it was for Korean officials that had been black,ailed due to a sex scandal, why didn't they kidnap a Lockheed Corp bigwigs daughter? Did John get directly involved in the sex scandal and black mail? Did his computer software cause the Korean famine? If you are claiming victory, you would not be shy in identifying the faction you are working for, believe in,and are willing to possibly die or give up your freedom for.

I find it difficult to believe that someone could accept and embrace that 2 or more Korean or Korean Americans would plan, fund and execute this and not claim the glory, along with the victory. This makes absolutely NO sense, whatsoever.

I propose a new theory. Maybe Jon Benets dance teacher did it, because Patsy changed one of Jon Benets dance moves.

Or maybe the older couple across the street did it because Jon Benets dog peed on their carpet.

Or maybe a Ramsey/Ramseys did it!

What was the reason, otherwise, for them to do the total opposite of what the ransom note told them to do?