What's eating you alive re this case?

[BBB167893]

Oh yes, I'm pretty sure it does. I can't help but wonder though if it was also a combination of genes from both as well?

Does John have siblings? What do we know about his mother? Didn't his father marry John's first wife's mother?

Anyone know what the deal is with JR's genes?

I think JR has a brother Jeff.

 

[Djoop]

What was the chance of RDI again, 12-1? And that's without the RN. Fathers being the most frequent perpetrators of filicide in later childhood, mothers more likely to kill girls. And again, that's without the RN and all the cirumstantial evidence (the bed, her clothing, the statements others have made about her behavior) that points to Patsy.

It's the possible abuse of JBR (chronic inflammation, abrasion at the 07:00 position) combined with Burke's poo stories that 'eats me alive'. IMO, these are strong indicators of domestic violence . I'm familiar with other cases in which children were abused by their parents. Sometimes one of the parents acted as an enabler, in others the abuse a result of the toxic relation between two people with severe personality disorders.


Among the fatalities attributed to child abuse, themost common cause of death is injury to the head,followed by injury to the abdomen (18, 23, 24).Intentional suffocation has also been extensivelyreported as a cause of death.
http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/global_campaign/en/chap3.pdf

 

[apabld]

The enhanced 911 call throws me off a bit. If Burke was really in the room, why did they have to lie about it? I know that saying he was asleep the whole time would have been 'easier' to say, but they could have just as easily said 'Burke came down to check what was going on and we sent him back to bed'.

 

[TexMex]

The enhanced 911 call throws me off a bit. If Burke was really in the room, why did they have to lie about it? I know that saying he was asleep the whole time would have been 'easier' to say, but they could have just as easily said 'Burke came down to check what was going on and we sent him back to bed'.

JMO but I think they agreed on a story that night. To keep it simple for Burke they likely told him: we came home, you went to sleep and heard and saw nothing until dad woke you up. The voices on the 911 recording were not discovered until later

 

[Mee]

Whats' bothering me is that I keep hearing no one would know she had the skull fracture. The bone was pushed into the skull. Wouldn't someone feel that damage if they knew to look for it?

 

[KentuckyKaren]

You didn't dream it, KentuckyKaren.

So... Do you know where that was first reported, and by whom? Think there's any merit to that?

 

[CorallaroC]

KY Karen - you might want to check the deposition Arndt gave for her lawsuit against BPD. It is difficult reading, but maybe an FIND ON PAGE feature would narrow it down. I think she was the one who reported the utterances of JR when he found JBR's body.

 

[Heymom]

The enhanced 911 call throws me off a bit. If Burke was really in the room, why did they have to lie about it? I know that saying he was asleep the whole time would have been 'easier' to say, but they could have just as easily said 'Burke came down to check what was going on and we sent him back to bed'.

They wanted to completely seal Burke off from speaking to investigators. If he were known to be awake at any point, the investigators could have insisted on talking to him. If he'd been asleep the entire time (ridiculous but officers deferred to the Ramseys thinking it really was a kidnapping scene), then he could be whisked off to the Whites' home and gotten out of the line of fire. John and Patsy still weren't sure they were even going to get away with their scheme, but at least Burke was safe.

 

[BBB167893]

JMO but I think they agreed on a story that night. To keep it simple for Burke they likely told him: we came home, you went to sleep and heard and saw nothing until dad woke you up. The voices on the 911 recording were not discovered until later

And by that time, they were locked in. Then in 2001, they changed the story to say he was awake. It's "evolved" over time.

 

[grapedrink]

I realize a large number of people believe Patsy wrote the ransom note. The problem I have with that is, why write such a long convoluted note. She/John would know that they may become suspects and both their handwriting would come into question. Surely you would write a short concise note. The longer the note the more chance of analysis.

 

[BBB167893]

I realize a large number of people believe Patsy wrote the ransom note.

Some very important people, grapedrink.

The problem I have with that is, why write such a long convoluted note. She/John would know that they may become suspects and both their handwriting would come into question. Surely you would write a short concise note. The longer the note the more chance of analysis.

You're not the first person to mention that, grapedrink. For me, it goes to what Jim Fitzgerald and Stan Burke said: they were trying to sell this hard and went overboard. Add to that these were not master criminals, and I think YouWho's signature sums it up well: "I didn't have time to write a short one."

 

[madeleine]

I realize a large number of people believe Patsy wrote the ransom note. The problem I have with that is, why write such a long convoluted note. She/John would know that they may become suspects and both their handwriting would come into question. Surely you would write a short concise note. The longer the note the more chance of analysis.

That's exactly the reason why I think she was the writer. The lenght, way too many details. But if she didn't do it alone what if it was BR and NOT JR who gave her some tips? The note sounds silly and childish.It's ridiculous. IMO JR would have known no one will buy that crap?

 

[madeleine]

I can very well imagine mom and son doing this crazy, bizarre cover up.

 

[Heymom]

I realize a large number of people believe Patsy wrote the ransom note. The problem I have with that is, why write such a long convoluted note. She/John would know that they may become suspects and both their handwriting would come into question. Surely you would write a short concise note. The longer the note the more chance of analysis.

What if JR set Patsy up though? He did hand LE her pad and pen that morning, knowing that she had written the note and whatever practice notes on that self-same pad.

 

[wannagonorth]

What if JR set Patsy up though? He did hand LE her pad and pen that morning, knowing that she had written the note and whatever practice notes on that self-same pad.

The same thought has run through my mind. What if he set her up completely, by throwing Burke under the bus and telling Patsy that she would lose her only remaining child if Burke was revealed to be the perpetrator? Making her believe that all the staging was intended to cast suspicion away from Burke, when it was actually to cast suspicion away from HIM???

 

[Hershey78]

I guess for me, it's just trying to imagine the scene that night, and how there is no way that if JR or PR did it, or even found JBR and covered it up- that they would get any sleep at all. Unless medication was involved form the beginning.

 

[otg]

So... Do you know where that was first reported, and by whom? Think there's any merit to that?

I'm not sure where it came from now (so many of my saved links not longer work), but it seems like it was something reportedly said by John to Rev. Rol Hoverwhatever after he had stepped away from the body.

 

[s(he) be(lie)ve(d)]

I seem to remember reading somewhere in a thread that when JR came up from "finding" JBR in the basement, he said something like "He didn't mean to kill her, he wrapped her in a blanket..." Am I imagining this or was it stated on one of the Websleuths' threads? If this is complete nonsense then I guess I have started having dreams/nightmares about this thing!

Kolar wrote about this in his book. It was father Holverstock, to whom this can be attributed. We however need to be very careful with hearsay as he was heard to give two different versions of what was said.

1) "I don't think he meant to kill her, because she was wrapped in a blanket." Or...... " She was warm, she was wrapped in a blanket."

Two vastly different versions of what he supposedly heard John say. The problem here is if FRH did not know which was said how are we to ever know if anything was really said and not just rumored hearsay.

 

[sedndun]

The things I look for are the little phrasings or seemingly extraneous bits of info that the Ramseys themselves have offered beyond what was asked. Something that I picked up on that has put a really upsetting notion in my head involves the words "zonked," and "amazed." In their own descriptions of putting JonBenet to bed on Christmas night, Patsy mentions how "she was just really zonked," and John says "I was amazed at how sound asleep she was." This all plays upon the sweet scene of a child asleep in the car being carried off to bed. But in their descriptions I've found that they seem to go a bit beyond and make it seem that she was really- really out of it.
So... is it at all possible that when they put her to sleep- whether straight from the car or after a little snack and playtime, that JonBenet was really- really out of it?
Imagine Christmas night after returning home John helps Burke finish up his model as they both sit on the floor- JonBenet is either helping as well or playing with her own gifts. Patsy has put out a pineapple snack and gone up to do some packing. The model finished or nearly finished the kids plead for more time (you don't just build a toy and then leave it there, you'd want a bit of time to play with the finished piece.) John acquiesces and heads up to get ready for bed. Perhaps from downstairs a noise is heard, but nothing that seems beyond normal sibling squabbling, and either way it ends as quickly as it begins and doesn't warrant an investigation. After maybe ten or fifteen minutes John heads back down to send the kids off to bed. There he finds Burke is still playing, and JonBenet sleeping nearby. He picks up the girl who seems to be in a deep sleep- she's had a long day after all. As he picks her up, he notices she's wet herself, so he carries her up in a bit of an awkward way to keep himself dry (his focus more on that than any other part of her body.) He calls Patsy to JonBenet's room, and they both get her changed while their daughter remains "really zonked." As Patsy finishes up, John makes sure Burke gets into bed as well. John heads up to read, Patsy goes back to packing- neither yet aware of the traumatic head blow their daughter has already suffered.

 

[curiousjo]

The things I look for are the little phrasings or seemingly extraneous bits of info that the Ramseys themselves have offered beyond what was asked. Something that I picked up on that has put a really upsetting notion in my head involves the words "zonked," and "amazed." In their own descriptions of putting JonBenet to bed on Christmas night, Patsy mentions how "she was just really zonked," and John says "I was amazed at how sound asleep she was." This all plays upon the sweet scene of a child asleep in the car being carried off to bed. But in their descriptions I've found that they seem to go a bit beyond and make it seem that she was really- really out of it.
So... is it at all possible that when they put her to sleep- whether straight from the car or after a little snack and playtime, that JonBenet was really- really out of it?
Imagine Christmas night after returning home John helps Burke finish up his model as they both sit on the floor- JonBenet is either helping as well or playing with her own gifts. Patsy has put out a pineapple snack and gone up to do some packing. The model finished or nearly finished the kids plead for more time (you don't just build a toy and then leave it there, you'd want a bit of time to play with the finished piece.) John acquiesces and heads up to get ready for bed. Perhaps from downstairs a noise is heard, but nothing that seems beyond normal sibling squabbling, and either way it ends as quickly as it begins and doesn't warrant an investigation. After maybe ten or fifteen minutes John heads back down to send the kids off to bed. There he finds Burke is still playing, and JonBenet sleeping nearby. He picks up the girl who seems to be in a deep sleep- she's had a long day after all. As he picks her up, he notices she's wet herself, so he carries her up in a bit of an awkward way to keep himself dry (his focus more on that than any other part of her body.) He calls Patsy to JonBenet's room, and they both get her changed while their daughter remains "really zonked." As Patsy finishes up, John makes sure Burke gets into bed as well. John heads up to read, Patsy goes back to packing- neither yet aware of the traumatic head blow their daughter has already suffered.

i like to read everyones theories. The question with this one- Why did the parents not call 911? Why the gillott? Why staging at all?