Who do you think is guilty? I'm relatively new here and...

Originally posted by Ivy
What do you see wrong with it, sissi? Do you consider it wrong that the investigator wished to remain anonymous to avoid the wrath of the Ramseys?
And there ya go. :) Not to mention avoiding the wrath of his/her superiors (and I use that term loosely in Boulder) for leaking info.

Gretchen and Fulton - excellent posts. You sum things up nicely.

Sissi - I was just wondering... considering that you seem to believe no one, trust no source, and discredit/dismiss every piece of information you can't see with your own eyes (and even dismiss some of that! :D)... what drives you to participate in these case discussions?

That's a serious question. I'd really like to know. Most of us try to put together pieces of the 'puzzle' but it seems to me you toss out all the puzzle pieces without trying to fit them in anywhere. What is the point?
 
I believe the methodology is very different in solving a homicide vs solving a drug case.
In a homicide the evidence leads to a suspect.
In a drug case the suspect is known,and the evidence is gathered to develop the case.
Steve Thomas was trained in the latter,Lou Smit in the first,very different methods....IMO

There was no pathology within this family to indicate that any one of them could commit this crime.

IMO

Britt,I do toss out a lot of information,especially from investigators who think they are dna experts and wish to remain anonymous.
 
The evidence strongly implicates the Ramseys even though there's no apparent family history suggesting they'd molest/murder one of their children. Some investigators (including Tripp DeMuth) and forensic experts (including Henry Lee) believe JonBenet's death may well have been unintentional, and that the Rs staged the scene to point to an intruder to try to explain away indications of sexual abuse. This fits with most BDI theories, including mine.
 
Originally posted by sissi
There was no pathology within this family to indicate that any one of them could commit this crime.
How do you know that? If there were molestation by a family member, how would you know? Don't you think a rich, powerful family has the means to hide ugly little secrets from the world? If a child's body with documented chronic sexual abuse, per the majority impartial expert opnion, isn't enough to convince someone of a possible dirty little secret in that family, nothing will. But I digress.

What pathology is necessary for a loss of temper?

What pathology is necessary for an accident?

What pathology is necessary for someone to stage/hide/cover up an incident they fear will destroy their life and send them to prison?

Britt,I do toss out a lot of information,especially from investigators who think they are dna experts...
Isn't that exactly what Lou Smit does? Not only does he think he's a DNA expert, he also thinks he's a stun gun expert.

Both the DNA experts and the stun gun experts - the real experts, not detectives or cops - dismiss both the DNA as crime-related evidence as well as the stun gun speculation.

Investigators who are not such experts and who therefore accept the experts' opinions believe (1) this is not a DNA case (i.e. the DNA means nothing) and (2) there was no stun gun.

So why do you believe Smit? You can't have it both ways. If you dismiss the investigators' non-expert opinions, anonymous or otherwise, then you have to dismiss Smit's as well.
 
Originally posted by Britt
How do you know that? If there were molestation by a family member, how would you know? Don't you think a rich, powerful family has the means to hide ugly little secrets from the world? If a child's body with documented chronic sexual abuse, per the majority impartial expert opnion, isn't enough to convince someone of a possible dirty little secret in that family, nothing will.

We can use John Andrew as a test case. Sissi, tell me all that you know about John Andrew Ramsey's two run-ins with police in September of 1996, one of them leading to an arrest. Those who already know what I write of, do not tip your hand, as this is a test of how well a family can keep an embarrassing dirty little secret from members of the public who are not so dedicated to ferreting such secrets out. The Ramseys are clearly ashamed of what happened, as they never mention it, even though it had ramifications which reached into the early months of 1997.
 
I guess I believe Smit just a little more than the others,because he came into the investigation after I had formed my own opinion. He didn't form it for me,he validated it.
I have never said I am right,I just try to express the what's and why's of the way I see it.
There was a child found murdered in a basement,her parents and brother were home,a ransom note was found,the police entered the home,the dad found the child. This isn't enough to make a family member guilty IMO.
The house was not secured there were open windows and at least one door,possibly another to the garage unlocked.
A neighbor said he saw a figure ,of a young man on the property.
A reporter claims he found something in a tree house that would not implicate the children.
A picture of another pageant child was taken to be viewed ,because the cord in the picture on viewing appeared the same as the cord in the crime.
The cord and the duct tape were the items missing ,there was no match in the house. Why? Intruders do not like leaving their belongings behind.
What about Patsy's handwriting, IMO ,anyone who copied it with their left hand would have similar results. I found it quite amazing,that some letters,ex. S,have an entirely different appearance when copied with the left hand..in the case of s..less of a slope in the top portion.
What makes Burke guilty? or John,or Patsy? I just don't get it .

IMO JMO
 
Originally posted by Sabrina
The rookie solved the case, the seasoned detective is still looking for his intruder. Does that answer your question?

How exactly is this case solved? Wouldn't one think that if it were "solved" that the Ramsey's would have been put on trial by now? (I assure you, if OJ can get tried, who is scared of the Ramsey's?) Just because most of you refuse to admit that YOU are wrong, does not meant he case is solved. There is evidence of an intruder, but isn't it funny how all of you point fingers when you have no evidence of any sort of prior criminal/sexual predator history with either one of the parents. Yes, one can keep secrets of molestation within a family, we all know that to be true, but once you are put up in front of the American media for 8 years, don't you think that that facade would have come crumbling down by now? (Remember, 2 people can keep a secret, but one has to dead) No pathology is necessary for things such as losing temper or accidents, but garroting a 6 year-old requires a bit of that, don't you think?
By one saying no pathology is necessary, you basically say any of us could have this happen. You think you could raise a child halfway normal, one night lose control, bash their head in, grab a paintbrush and some rope and sexually garrote your child? That is absurd!

Also, while we are on the rope thing, two important key items of evidence cannot be linked to either parent. Where did the rope come from? What about the masking tape? Why would 2 parents need masking tape for their own child?

Secondly, if the blow to her head did kill her, (blunt force trauma) where was all the blood? That is one factor that is shared in all blunt force trauma cases, an immense shedding of blood.

An intruder may have stayed in the house long enough to feed JonBenet pineapple, redress her, etc etc. It may have been someone who knew them well and were comfortable in the house. This person obviously had been casing the house for a long time.

My question for all of you is "Why go to such elaborate stagings, writng a ransom note, staging a body, just to leave her body in the basement? Why not just NOT write the note, and leave her in the basement or dump her body outside?"

You would think if you knoew enough to do some of the things the Ramsey's have been accused of, you would remember small things such as that? Or do you guys just choose to ignore it?

Oh yeah, and the body was wrapped, but haphazardly, her legs and arms were sticking out.
 
Originally posted by sissi
What makes Burke guilty? or John,or Patsy? I just don't get it .

IMO JMO

In my opinion, what ultimately drives me toward a theory of Ramsey guilt is the real-world evidence that 100% of child murders inside a house, when the child is not found dead in her or her bedroom, were committed by a parent or other person who lived in the house or was an intimate member of the household. Every anecdote a Ramsey defender can quote about child murder inside a house and involving an intruder also always involves the child either being removed from the house entirely or being killed in his or her bed. Nobody can get around this, and until they can, I have to go with a theory which is 100% possible, rather than a theory which is unprecedented in human history.
 
Originally posted by ajt400
My question for all of you is "Why go to such elaborate stagings, writng a ransom note, staging a body, just to leave her body in the basement? Why not just NOT write the note, and leave her in the basement or dump her body outside?"
And how would the parents explain their dead child without the note to tell the "story," without the staging and the props to show "what happened"? Even if they dumped her outside, they'd still need to explain what happened.

Parents hoping to get away with the crime would HAVE TO stage it. How the heck else would they explain the death?

I'd ask you the same question: Why would an intruder go to such elaborate stagings, writng a ransom note, staging a body, just to leave her body in the basement? Why not just NOT write the note, and leave her in the basement or dump her body outside?
 
The Ramseys had no choice but to write a phony ransom note. Without the note there would have been no "evidence" of an intruder. None.

It is possible the Ramseys had initially planned to remove JonBenet's body from the house and dump it or try to bury it somewhere but for any of a variety of reasons, changed their minds. (A while back there was a thread devoted to discussing this possibility.) Regardless of whether the body stayed or was removed from the house, the Ramseys needed something that pointed to an intruder and away from them. Writing a phony ransom note was the perfect solution.
 
AJT400 shares in my belief,what he/she said makes good ,sound sense IMO

Why nut is saying 100% of children found in their homes murdered were murdered by someone who lived in that home or were intimate family members. I do know this is not true.

JMO IMO
 
Thank you for all the replies. I appreciate reading all the feedback because I believe in the intruder theory, due to the DNA and the horrific way she was murdered.

But I also have to respect your theories too as I'm sure there is a lot I haven't read about this case &/or the parents that make so many people so certain its them.

Saddest thing is whoever is guilty, should be put to death (as my quote on the bottom) and there's a little girl dead in a grave with no justice.

If it was the mother, she won't be meeting God or her Jesus when she goes.
 
Originally posted by sissi
I do know this is not true.
So does he but the important thing to remember is that even in that Susan Smith case wherein the cops were immediately focusing on the mother, they still treated it as a carjacking as well despite thier concern over her behavior and the ever-changing scene of the crime.
 
Originally posted by ajt400
Just because most of you refuse to admit that YOU are wrong, does not meant he case is solved.
And just because most of you refuse to see how Boulder corruption could prevent this case from going to trial does not mean the case is UNsolved.

But you're right that the case isn't completely solved since no one knows exactly what happened. However, the suspect list is short: Patsy, John and Burke Ramsey. And since the evidence could convict Patsy and would have gone to trial in any other jurisdiction, IMO that's close enough to being solved.

There is evidence of an intruder...
Really? Where? Please list (current and accurate) "intruder" evidence that has no other possible explanation but an intruder.

...but isn't it funny how all of you point fingers when you have no evidence of any sort of prior criminal/sexual predator history with either one of the parents.
And funny how many of you Ramsey defenders point fingers at innocent bystanders with zero evidence, historical or otherwise, simply to take the heat off the Ramseys.

Again, how does a known history relate to whether or not a perp did a crime? All perps begin their history somewhere. And rich, powerful perps can hide a lot of history.

I wonder again why John lawyered up his first family.

...don't you think that that facade would have come crumbling down by now?
A facade is probably as durable as it needs to be. Even if it did crumble, how would we know? The rich and powerful Ramseys and their legal/pharmaceutical reinforcements can keep a lot hidden.

No pathology is necessary for things such as losing temper or accidents, but garroting a 6 year-old requires a bit of that, don't you think?
In other words, pathology is necessary for staging a crime (i.e. garroting)? How so? If a perp has a choice between (1) calling police and confessing to an accident that could land them in jail or (2) staging a phony crime scene in order to avoid jail, what sort of pathology drives one to choose door number two?

By one saying no pathology is necessary, you basically say any of us could have this happen.
Yes, any of us could have an accident or lose our temper with tragic unforeseen results... of course that could happen. No one is immune from that sort of thing because no one is perfect. As for deciding to stage a phony crime scene... no, I don't think we all would choose that route, but it wouldn't require a pathology to do so.

You think you could raise a child halfway normal, one night lose control, bash their head in, grab a paintbrush and some rope and sexually garrote your child? That is absurd!
Why? It's not like there's a how-to book or a protocol for crime staging.

Hypothetical: What if a child who is being molested by her father, with physical evidence of that molestation, then gets in a struggle with her mother and is inadvertently injured, either by pressure on the vagus nerve or by her head being bashed into something, to the point where the parents think she is dead?

Then what? How "should" they stage that? Wouldn't a fake kidnap/sex predator scenario be perfect here? They know there's evidence of the molestation. They know there will likely be evidence of the struggle, e.g. possible neck injuries. What to do with that? It can't be ignored. It must be incorporated into the staging. What's the alternative? Call police and risk the obvious fallout?

It's a given that molestation happens in secret. It's a given that an accident or unintentional tragedy can happen to anyone. So combine those elements and then what? Is it so inconceivable or absurd to think some people might decide to stage a fake crime to save their butts? And in doing so, whether they want to or not, they have to incorporate the vaginal and neck injuries into the staging, or else they can't blame those injuries on the "intruder."

Also, while we are on the rope thing, two important key items of evidence cannot be linked to either parent. Where did the rope come from?
Duct tape and cord... common household items, easily removed from the house in a purse or pocket by the Ramseys, who were not searched. Not a huge mystery here.

What about the masking tape? Why would 2 parents need masking tape for their own child?
It was duct tape and it was applied postmortem = staging.

Secondly, if the blow to her head did kill her, (blunt force trauma) where was all the blood?
First, it didn't have much time to bleed -- the head blow and strangulation occurred at close to the same time. Second, pressure on the vagus nerve would have slowed blood pressure.
 
Originally posted by sissi
I did,during the early weeks following the crime,think the Ramsey's participated. I thought this based on the lies presented in the media. Who else could have done this? There was snow on the lawn and walkways,and no foot prints! Forget the window being too small, this "snow" thing was huge! Forget the story about the spider web,this "snow" thing was IT. There could be no doubt that there was no one capable of levitating across that lawn,short of Santa coming down the chimney ,NO ONE gained access to that house!
It was a LIE! There was no snow on the walkways.
It was a LIE! Spiders do recreate their webs.
It was a LIE! Grown men climbed through that window to prove it.
After the early lies,it was easy to lose trust in what the media was presenting.
Clearly something was wrong . We ,media consumers, were sucking in every little puff of smoke put out there, fed a daily menu of garbage . IMO ,while I kept up with the reading,I did question ,why should what is in print today be less fiction than Okyesterday's lies?

People criticize me when I suggest the family as victim, IMO, there is no other way to express what has happened to them.

The Boulder PD,put all of their "eggs" in one basket,based on the same lies we believed. They were responsible to a family and to a public to do a better job, and refused,in some collective sociopathic way they could not accept being wrong,and therefore would not indict their own misinformation,would not start over. "There were no footprints in the snow",has never changed for them.

IMO JMO

OK, AND you do know it's a FACT that: Anyone Can Justify ANYTHING!, right?
 
Originally posted by ajt400
How exactly is this case solved? Wouldn't one think that if it were "solved" that the Ramsey's would have been put on trial by now? (I assure you, if OJ can get tried, who is scared of the Ramsey's?) Just because most of you refuse to admit that YOU are wrong, does not meant he case is solved. There is evidence of an intruder, but isn't it funny how all of you point fingers when you have no evidence of any sort of prior criminal/sexual predator history with either one of the parents. Yes, one can keep secrets of molestation within a family, we all know that to be true, but once you are put up in front of the American media for 8 years, don't you think that that facade would have come crumbling down by now? (Remember, 2 people can keep a secret, but one has to dead) No pathology is necessary for things such as losing temper or accidents, but garroting a 6 year-old requires a bit of that, don't you think?
By one saying no pathology is necessary, you basically say any of us could have this happen. You think you could raise a child halfway normal, one night lose control, bash their head in, grab a paintbrush and some rope and sexually garrote your child? That is absurd!

Also, while we are on the rope thing, two important key items of evidence cannot be linked to either parent. Where did the rope come from? What about the masking tape? Why would 2 parents need masking tape for their own child?

Secondly, if the blow to her head did kill her, (blunt force trauma) where was all the blood? That is one factor that is shared in all blunt force trauma cases, an immense shedding of blood.

An intruder may have stayed in the house long enough to feed JonBenet pineapple, redress her, etc etc. It may have been someone who knew them well and were comfortable in the house. This person obviously had been casing the house for a long time.

My question for all of you is "Why go to such elaborate stagings, writng a ransom note, staging a body, just to leave her body in the basement? Why not just NOT write the note, and leave her in the basement or dump her body outside?"

You would think if you knoew enough to do some of the things the Ramsey's have been accused of, you would remember small things such as that? Or do you guys just choose to ignore it?

Oh yeah, and the body was wrapped, but haphazardly, her legs and arms were sticking out.
:nono:


Hum...read much? Read the books!...IMHO the blood story comes alive....!!!!


Secondly, if the blow to her head did kill her, (blunt force trauma) where was all the blood? That is one factor that is shared in all blunt force trauma cases, an immense shedding of blood.

:)

Kellermann's Kollectionn of:
JONBENET RAMSEY TRIAL BOOKS
Last Updated 02/04/00


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hodges, Andrew G. (1998). A Mother Gone Bad: The Hidden Confession of JonBenet's Killer. Birmingham, AL: Village House Publishers.


Keene-Osborn, Sherry. (1997). Pretty Baby: The Life and Death of JonBenet Ramsey. ----: Ballantine Books.


McLean, Linda Edison. (1998). JonBenet's Mother: The Tragedy and the Truth. Parsons, WV : McClain Print. Co.


Schiller, Lawrence. (1999). Perfect Murder, Perfect Town: JonBenet and the City of Bouldert. New York: HarperCollins.


Singular, Stephen. (1999). Presumed Guilty: An Investigation into the JonBenet Ramsey Case, the Media, and the Culture of *advertiser censored*. Beverly Hills, CA: New Millennium Press.


Smith, Carlton. (1997). Death of a Little Princess: The Tragic Story of the Murder of JonBenet Ramsey. New York: St. Martin's Press.


Stobie, Jane Gray. (1999). JonBenet's Gift: A Miracle for the Millennium. Denver, CO: Blue Balloon Press.


Von Duyke, Eleanor (with Dwight Wallington). (1998). A Little Girl's Dream? A JonBenet Ramsey Story. Austin, TX: Windsor House Publishing.


Wecht, Cyril & Bosworth, Charles. (1998). Who Killed JonBenet Ramsey? New York: Onyx.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


See other kollectionns
FAMOUS TRIALS KOLLECTIONNS
TRIAL BACKGROUND KOLLECTIONNS


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Originally posted by Blazeboy3
I for one am going on intinct and not prev knowledge and IMHO...Patsy did it(premeditated JBR murder all the way)without blinking...IMHO!

Read and reread your books Blaze everyone of them....




Patsy did not kill her daughter.

She might have covered up but, SHE didn't kill JB
 
Why nut is saying 100% of children found in their homes murdered were murdered by someone who lived in that home or were intimate family members. I do know this is not true.

That isn't true, I am not trying to be misleading but only about 90% of children murdered are murdered by people they know, note PEOPLE THEY KNOW, not just their parents. And, yes, Blazeboy, I do read, quite alot actually. I however don't just pick out the facts that support my point of view. I at one time believed the Ramsey's were guilty. I believed that until I actually decided to read books with other points of view. I have not pointed a finger at anyone in particular, I just don't believe the Ramsey's did this.
I realized that alot of the information that I went on was wrong, like the footprints in the snow, the fact that a grown man cou;d not fit through the basement window, small things like that.

And I do believe that pathology has alot to do wit this case. I don't think that you just come up with something like garroting your child if you accidentely kill her/him. Not everyone watches court tv and not everyone is aware of sexual predators behavior. Yes it is true that everyone starts somewhere, but pathology like this doesn't spring up in people who are in their 40's and 50's. This sort of sexual deviancy would have had to have been evident somewhere in their past. It just simply isn't.

Yes, I do believe the media should be able to justify what they print, it is called checking your sources, not just printing what seems relevant at the time.

I think foreign DNA at the scene is pretty strong evidence that someone else was there. I also think the fact that they could not be linked to the rope or masking tape is signifigant as well. I am not saying that one couldn't get rid of it, but when you can't track the sale to them, what do you have.

Most of you go on fabricated circumstantial evidence. DNA evidence is strong, there is nothing that can beat that.

Also Blazeboy, just because you read it in a book, does not mean that it is truth. Books are written by people and people have opinions.

Lastly, why, if your daughter is killed by you accidently, do you stage the scene to be a kidnapping, if you are just going to leave the body in the basement? Why get rid of a few things but leave others behind? (Like the pad the note was written on) Wouldn't you want to get the child as far away from the house as possible?

And I am sorry, but I will take the work of 2 easoned homicide investigators like Lou Smit and John Douglas over some Boulder det who have had no previous homicide investigations. Most of the evidence you all claim is just scratching the surface, once you look beneath it, you have nothing.
 
Originally posted by ajt400
Why nut is saying 100% of children found in their homes murdered were murdered by someone who lived in that home or were intimate family members.
That isn't what why_nutt said.
 

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