Who Killed Jon Benet Ramsey? Poll

[BBB167893]

Ah, yes, let the contradictions begin!

While the note and the body will always be a contradiction it all comes down to motive. With IDI we have an unknown motive so it’s hard to know where to go with this; but with RDI the motive is to explain why there is a dead body in the house – the note contradicts this RDI motivation.

If the Ramseys had disposed of the body than that would make complete sense of the note. But, they didn’t and most RDI say that they couldn’t or wouldn’t and they simply had no intention of getting rid of it for one reason or another, so, on this point you are in disagreement with many of your cohorts.
.

IDI doesn’t say some random guy, it says some specific unknown guy. Yes, the note is crazy. It’s fake!
…

AK

Did you read Ellie9's post, Anti-K? The motive for the ransom note wasn't merely to explain a dead body in the house; it's primary purpose was to put blame on someone else. The note gives them the whole world as suspects! It allows them to point to it and say, "this person said they did it, so why are you bothering us?"

 

[BBB167893]

They had a dead body in the house. They needed to explain it in some way or they needed to get rid of it and then explain why it was missing. A kidnapping explains why it was missing. It explains the opposite of what they needed to explain. This is a contradiction.

If the Ramseys, against all odds and reason, decided to go ahead with the fake kidnapping than why didn’t they provide an entry point? Unlock a door, let the police find it. Lie if they have to. If you want someone to believe that another someone came into your home, the first thing you think of is, how did they get in?

IMO this is an almost unbelievable aspect of RDI theories. I know that some RDI recognize this, too, and so arises the idea that the basement window/suitcase was intended as an entry, but the police never noticed it and Ramsey never pointed it out or mentioned it to them!

Wanting the police to think someone came into their home, not pointing out the window/suitcase and telling the police that all the doors were locked contradicts the Ramseys wanting the police to think that someone came into the home.
…

AK

Nobody ever said they were criminal masterminds. Quite the opposite, in my case.

 

[SunnieRN]

Maybe it's due to the fact that his parents spirited him away, maybe it's due to the pineapple on the table, possibly to the fact that there was evidence of repeated trauma without evidence of a loss of virginity, or the stories of the housekeeper of finding BR and Jon Benet playing under the covers during the day, but my theory is still that the most probable suspect is BR.

 

[BBB167893]

Fleet was looking for jbr, but I bet he wasn’t expecting to find her, and that he wasn’t really looking that hard. She had been kidnapped.

You can mock all you want, and you can twist what I say all you want, but it is an empirical fact: people often do not see things that are right there in plain sight, right in front of them. True story. I bet it’s happened to you. I bet it’s happened to all of us. Haven’t you ever looked for something, over and over, going back to the same spot over and over only to have someone come along and say, “here it is.” And, it was right there where you left it and where you already looked a thousand times. “Here it is.” Wtf? It happens (with some people it happens all the time!). Welcome to Real Life.

Fleet looked, he didn’t see the body. Ramsey looked, he saw it. You can imagine some bizarre explanation for this, but one isn’t necessary.
…

AK

You're right. It's quite simple: Fleet didn't know where to look or what to look for. John did.

 

[andreww]

Andreww, I thought he was asked at least, if they could talk to Burke. I recall that JR was said to have stated "He doesn't know anything, he was asleep." as he was whisking BR away to the White's house (at 7:30 am, so before the 11am idea). So no, technically he didn't get asked about the 911 call, but that still suggests he was lying. Maybe he really wasn't directly involved in anything, but he had to have known shortly after that there was something that needed to be covered up.
.

Problem here is that Burke has said he was feigning sleep. So John wakes him (before the 911 call) and says did you see or hear anything? Burke says no, but he ventures out of his room for the 911 call. If this were the case, John wouldn't have been hiding anything or misleading police in any way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[andreww]

andreww,

Precisely my point.


Right, but JR did not know this, he proceeded thinking only he knew the prior layout of the basement.


Sure or JonBenet was in another basement room? Those wrist restraints are not as convincing as say the ligature.

JR could have wrapped JonBenet in a blanket sourced from the clean washing in the basement, so he could avoid any direct contact, then placed her into the wine-cellar, knowing if nobody found her he could? At the same time he could have fashioned the wrist restraints and simply put the tape on her mouth, thus explaining the fibers on the sticky side?

JR already knew prior to the 911 call, when he replies to BR, We are not talking to you. All three R's are complicit in postmortem staging, its just who did precisely what that is in question?

IMO JR was simply performing ad-hoc staging after the 911 call, including relocating BR out of the house, not required if its PDI, since BR will be passed over by the investigators.

.

I still think you are taking a leap when you say that John was already in on it when (and if) he said "we are not talking to you". Nothing John says or does prior to 11:00 gives any indication he was involved, in fact it's the complete opposite. He tells police he's checked all the doors are locked. Why? He must have been aware that if it were a foreign faction, they would need an entry point.

As far as I know the only thing that points to John being complicit is that he told LE that he had read to JB while Burke and Patsy went straight to bed. Obviously the red fibres at the crime scene suggest that Patsy never changed. So either John is lying here or as he said later, he was misunderstood. That however does not explain the fact that in all subsequent versions, John goes to bed first.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[andreww]

Maybe it's due to the fact that his parents spirited him away, maybe it's due to the pineapple on the table, possibly to the fact that there was evidence of repeated trauma without evidence of a loss of virginity, or the stories of the housekeeper of finding BR and Jon Benet playing under the covers during the day, but my theory is still that the most probable suspect is BR.

Thats as good a guess as there is Sunnie, I believe Burke was largely responsible as well. The big quest is whether Burke put the noose on her neck and strangled her? I don't believe he did, I feel that was Patsy. So even though I am BDI, truth is it was probably Patsy that ended her life.

 

[questfortrue]

As for DocG I am only recommending it for the handwriting sample. I have never seen any substantial (i.e. more than one or two lines) examples of his handwriting anywhere, but there was one other example on his site. They are both cheques if I'm not mistaken. I'd never heard anyone say PR wrote it, so maybe that's true. His theory "proves" nothing. I haven't looked at that site in years so I don't remember much.

If JR is so innocent then why is he such a liar? Why didn't he tell anyone about the window? Why did his stories change? Why didn't he say anything about BR being awake? Why would he try to call Archuleta to get out of town less than an hour after the body was discovered? Why didn't he talk to the police? Why did they wait 4 months to have an interview? Why did he even hire lawyers for his ex-wife and the rest of the family if he had nothing to hide?

They did not cooperate at all, to the point of impeding the investigation. Why wouldn't innocent parents want to find the killer? Look at the family of Daniel van Dam, 10 years after they were still talking about this and pushing for better Amber Alert systems. The R's had the resources to make some real changes happen if they were so concerned about "someone out there." In contrast to the families of Polly Klaas, or Adam Walsh, they took JB's website down. They dissolved her foundation. Why didn't they try to do anything to stop bad guys from hurting little children? Because they knew that this threat wasn't "out there".

Beth died years before JB, but why would him being in mourning make him more likely to be innocent? That makes no sense to me. Yeah of course he was saddened by both deaths. The R's were not monsters, they were not emotionless. They did love their children....both of them. Something happened. They covered up something. A situation beyond the emotional scope of any normal person occurred, whatever it was, and they reacted.

~RBBM~
A monster inside one or more of them was released that night.

The biggest clue to me is sending BR away to an unsecured location. Jmho.

Also, the echos of JR’s venacular appear in various other instances outside of the RN: “And hence” and “proper burial”, e.g. The word usage also brings up the topic of Mind Hunter. The crime techs shot hundreds of photos in the Rs’ home, including the books. The reference on ACR was that the evidence of Mind Hunter was from police sources. (a leak?). If folks think it’s a myth, that’s fine. I can’t prove it. The interviewers asked both parents about this book which makes me think they did have confirmation of it in a photo. It’s a pretty gruesome book, and a book which the housekeepers would believe belonged to JR, not Patsy, since he was the one hooked on crime books. But a flaming hint that someone(s) was familiar with it was also in the RN. In the book there was a psychopath who used the words “Listen carefully,” when he’d call up victims’ mothers after kidnapping their daughters. I don’t gravitate to the idea that anyone planned JB's death, but if someone wanted to point away from the family, there are many clues in the book how to stage a visit from a psychopath.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

First post on this thread and i am not a native speaker so excuse my bad English..my guess is BDI and the other two the staging for cover up..IMO John did the tape and garrote thing . My gut feeling is that John asked/called /shouted Patsy for tape and rope and she brought it thus her fibers were found on them ..That basement was a mess and men usually have no idea what is where esp under stress it's harder to find things..There was a lot going on his mind at the time .. And İ agree the paint brush was used to avoid touching JBR How sad...

 

[OliviaG1996]

Problem here is that Burke has said he was feigning sleep. So John wakes him (before the 911 call) and says did you see or hear anything? Burke says no, but he ventures out of his room for the 911 call. If this were the case, John wouldn't have been hiding anything or misleading police in any way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JR was very persistent in his statements that BR was asleep before and during the 9-1-1 call only until he was confronted with the fact that LE had heard BR's voice on the call in his interview with National Enquirer. In fact, I'm pretty sure he was lying to and misleading police about this before JBR's body was even "found".

 

[THE BUNK]

Did you read Ellie9's post, Anti-K? The motive for the ransom note wasn't merely to explain a dead body in the house; it's primary purpose was to put blame on someone else. The note gives them the whole world as suspects! It allows them to point to it and say, "this person said they did it, so why are you bothering us?"

Even when the police doubted the ransom letter, they STILL had to investigate the kidnapping angle to be thorough. That enough, makes the ransom note worthwhile.

 

[andreww]

JR was very persistent in his statements that BR was asleep before and during the 9-1-1 call only until he was confronted with the fact that LE had heard BR's voice on the call in his interview with National Enquirer. In fact, I'm pretty sure he was lying to and misleading police about this before JBR's body was even "found".

Again, you are confusing what happened before 11:00 and what has happened after. John is a lying piece of crap, but before about 11:00 that day I believe he was telling the truth. If you have confirmation that John told LE that morning that Burke was, and had always been asleep that morning, I'll drop it. But as far as I know the only mention of Burke was when John told police that Burke had slept through the night and had seen and heard nothing. There is no evidence to suggest that John had any reason to doubt that.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Some random thoughts and theories .. I'm sure they were mentioned here many times though...I have read many threads but not all of them yet..

It sounds improbable and unbelievable and way too risky to me to stage such an overkilling of one's own daughter if it were an accidental death... why not call for an ambulance? How dare does one concoct such a murder scenario ? At the end of the day you might be accused of that murder yourself. Therefore I eliminate the theory of Patsy hitting her and her falling and hitting her head to the sink in the bathroom as well as the bathroom being the real crime scene as there was no apparent cover up in the bathroom either.
I also eliminate the kitchen being the real crime scene as the kitchen also seems to be
staged to me .i.e the flashlight was deliberately put there as an item belonging to /used by an intruder .Thus that was not the murder weapon and was prob. too light for the crack on JB's head. As for the pineapple the R couldn't foresee that autopsy would determine the death time ( imo before midnight) , so they didn't put the bowl back to the refrigerator.. But then again they lied about who ate the pineapple as they tried to shift the death time to a later hour when they were supposedly asleep and didn't hear anything..
The basement was totally a cover up , the blanket under JBR , the paint brush , the garrote and I don't see a child of that age goes there in the middle of the night for playing.. They tried to draw the attention to an isolated place of the house like an intruder would do and also a place where they themselves couldn't find her until LA and friends arrived. Imo they might have thought of taking her body out but it was too risky as a neighbor or anyone on the way could see and remember..
My theory is that B's room was the real crime scene..

 

[OliviaG1996]

Again, you are confusing what happened before 11:00 and what has happened after. John is a lying piece of crap, but before about 11:00 that day I believe he was telling the truth. If you have confirmation that John told LE that morning that Burke was, and had always been asleep that morning, I'll drop it. But as far as I know the only mention of Burke was when John told police that Burke had slept through the night and had seen and heard nothing. There is no evidence to suggest that John had any reason to doubt that.

...

"Foreign Faction - Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?" by James Kolar (pg. 26)

[John] Ramsey told French that he had conducted a cursory search of JonBenet's room and that of his 9-year old son's while awaiting the arrival of officers. He reported that his 9-year old son, Burke, was still asleep in his upstairs bedroom. He had not been awakened by either of the parents to determine if he knew anything about JonBenet's disappearance.

This was around 6 A.M..

 

[Ellie9]

Again, you are confusing what happened before 11:00 and what has happened after. John is a lying piece of crap, but before about 11:00 that day I believe he was telling the truth. If you have confirmation that John told LE that morning that Burke was, and had always been asleep that morning, I'll drop it. But as far as I know the only mention of Burke was when John told police that Burke had slept through the night and had seen and heard nothing. There is no evidence to suggest that John had any reason to doubt that.

Hmm. I honestly do see a lot of what you're saying. Especially when JR says he didn't find any point of entry, and then even fully admits to breaking the window himself.

The problem with your theory that I see is that JR saw the ransom note before all this - before 11 AM in your theory. It looked so much like PR's handwriting. I'm sure he knew. If he was going to try to help PR by siding with her, wouldn't he have started earlier maybe? I feel like he must have known it was PR's note once he saw it. It's a ridiculous note. This makes me think that even if he didn't have a single thing to do with it that night, not even witnessing it, then he must have decided to play along very early.

 

[Annapurna]

The R's stated several times in subsequent interviews that BR was asleep, they did not check on him, they did not wake him, he was not woken up by the noise.

Or are you saying that all statements given after 11 am don't count? As Olivia provided Officer French, the very first on the scene, included that in his report. If BR was taken from the house at 7:30 am, as is reported by a number of sources, then this statement had to have been before 11 am. Officer French left the scene before the body was discovered. I'll look around to see if I can find an exact time. I doubt he would have waited to ask that question. In the Bonita papers (I know, I know) French is said to have taken a statement from JR shortly after arriving. In this statement they said Burke was asleep until they "woke" him at ~7am. Was he the one who went over to the White's house to ask B questions?

Bonita Papers say that officers and the victims advocates left at 10:30 am. It stated that JR did not go unseen until after everyone had left but D. Linda Ardnt . LA has said in her statements that she lost track of JR around 10:40. He may have been waiting until most of the cops left to finish staging the scene, or move her or something.

I'm at work so I don't want to go super in depth with the research (I wonder what my boss would say if he knew how obsessed with this case I am). I will return with more research.

Does anyone know where to find Police Statements? I've done a cursory search of acandyrose but didn't see anything. I'm trying to nail down the LE timeline. I think Kolar is a good source on this as he really paid attention to the LE side of things.

 

[InstantProof]

I still think you are taking a leap when you say that John was already in on it when (and if) he said "we are not talking to you". Nothing John says or does prior to 11:00 gives any indication he was involved, in fact it's the complete opposite. He tells police he's checked all the doors are locked. Why? He must have been aware that if it were a foreign faction, they would need an entry point.

Sometimes I think he's not involved, but I think it's also possible that he and Patsy did not agree on what to do/ how to stage, and Patsy called 911 to set her version of events in motion. John would have been angry, and trying to avoid saying anything that would make him seem involved in what he may have thought was a terrible idea. But sending Burke away indicated he knew at that point what was going on.

 

[Ellie9]

Sometimes I think he's not involved, but I think it's also possible that he and Patsy did not agree on what to do/ how to stage, and Patsy called 911 to set her version of events in motion. John would have been angry, and trying to avoid saying anything that would make him seem involved in what he may have thought was a terrible idea. But sending Burke away indicated he knew at that point what was going on.

I really like this theory on JR's involvement. I also think there was disagreement over how to cover up and stage. It's like you can see the disagreement in the situation, but they never actually disagree in interviews or ever correct each other (that I noticed anyway) which might be a big part of why this case is so confusing.

 

[EllieBee]

Did you read Ellie9's post, Anti-K? The motive for the ransom note wasn't merely to explain a dead body in the house; it's primary purpose was to put blame on someone else. The note gives them the whole world as suspects! It allows them to point to it and say, "this person said they did it, so why are you bothering us?"

Let us not forget their follow-up act was pointing fingers at their housekeeper, Santa Claus and Fleet White...guess they thought their doo doo would stick if they threw it in enough directions.

 

[UKGuy]

I still think you are taking a leap when you say that John was already in on it when (and if) he said "we are not talking to you". Nothing John says or does prior to 11:00 gives any indication he was involved, in fact it's the complete opposite. He tells police he's checked all the doors are locked. Why? He must have been aware that if it were a foreign faction, they would need an entry point.

As far as I know the only thing that points to John being complicit is that he told LE that he had read to JB while Burke and Patsy went straight to bed. Obviously the red fibres at the crime scene suggest that Patsy never changed. So either John is lying here or as he said later, he was misunderstood. That however does not explain the fact that in all subsequent versions, John goes to bed first.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

andreww,

Nothing John says or does prior to 11:00 gives any indication he was involved, in fact it's the complete opposite.

This is inconsistent with statements made by JR prior to 11:00 AM. He tells investigators that BR is asleep in bed, he relocates BR from the house ASAP.

He must have been aware that if it were a foreign faction, they would need an entry point.

Sure and thats why either BR or PR broke the window! Remember JR states he moved JARS suitcase from upstairs down to the basement, he is offering a reason why the suitcase is in the basement, maybe PR or BR had another use for it?

Whatever the reason the wine-cellar crime-scene is the result of a prior staged crime-scene being restaged, either JonBenet was left in situ, or placed into the wine-cellar, or the latter took place when JR vanished mid-morning?

JR is undoing someone elses inept crime-scene staging, hence the tape over JonBenet's mouth and the loose wrist restraints, probably added when he went missing.

I'll repeat it again, since its impeachable evidence, all three Ramsey's are complicit in postmortem staging of JonBenet's homicide.

JR, PR and BR have to know what the basic version of events are prior to phoning 911, since they expected to be interviewed after doing so.

JR and PR mostly confirm each others version of events, with the documented exceptions, JR confirms BR's version of events, except where they conflict, i.e. JonBenet walked up the spiral staircase, or where the R's later confirmed BR was awake during the 911 call, and not asleep as JR had stated!

If JR was not involved how does he know what version of events to attribute to BR or PR, how does he know which items in the basement are critical forensic evidence and require explaining away, i.e. broken window, suitcase presence, etc. Then there is the chair JR has a story regarding that too.

Nobody can explain away that which they have no knowledge of! PR did not telepathically communicate everyone's version of events to JR after the 911 call, similarly BR, who was briefed on his expected role.

All three R's colluded in fabricating a postmortem crime-scene, with JR taking lead position in explaining away some of the rough edges.


.